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Auto A/C question

Yes when evap freezes the air flow is restricted. I am at a lose to explain the pressure differance it should have been higher. grasping at straws was this just after shut down or 30 mins + after ? maybe gas was frozen in evap ??? Or possible the gauges or connections leaked.

Yes turn that knob watch the low side. When low side gets to 40-35 psi the compressor should disengage and reengage @ 55-60 psi see if this helps
 
I believe the expansion valve has been changed once, in an attempt to correct these same symptoms. Might be mistaken thou my mind is a bit frazzled lately
 
Yes when evap freezes the air flow is restricted. I am at a lose to explain the pressure differance it should have been higher. grasping at straws was this just after shut down or 30 mins + after ? maybe gas was frozen in evap ??? Or possible the gauges or connections leaked.

Yes turn that knob watch the low side. When low side gets to 40-35 psi the compressor should disengage and reengage @ 55-60 psi see if this helps
With the low side pressure and that frost, I’m going to say the expansion valve is clogged up.
Air goes directly into box under dash no filter or anything. Now that You said that I wonder if those cheap gauges have a leak and loose pressure, think my friend got them from Amazon will ask Tomorrow. Maybe no pressure by morning. It was at least 20-30 min after shut down. I walked away and left them hooked up. Low never gets to30-40. Even when first turned unless off and then they both equalize. It’s down around 20. Maybe bad compressor?

I will order another expansion valve and try. There fairly cheap.

just got call I’m headed back Louisiana 2 AM. Damn my paycheck is a bitch. HaHa

I will follow up on all suggestions.

thanks for the help yall.
 
I pretty sure sure your compressor is working with 20ish psi low and high over 200. If the static pressure is continuing to drop there is a leak, I suspect the gauges. My good snap on gauges had a low side leak that messed with me this summer, an old worn out stem seal, guess after 30 years I should expect it. Reminds me gotta look for a kit I hope they still make'm
 
For the most part, refrigeration is simple.
First of all, the gas laws work. If you have a closed system, with no artificial drivers, such as a running compressor, and there is some liquid in the system, then the pressure at all points in the system is directly controlled by the temperature.
In other words, suppose you have a tank of a gas that is about half liquid and half gas. The pressure in that tank depends on the average temp of the liquid/gas in the tank and its boiling point.
If you increase the temp, a small amount of the liquid will boil off and increase the pressure.
If you decrease the temp, a small amount of the gas will condense and lower the pressure.

Note: The temp is the average temp of the system. So, when you were reading the pressure before startup, probably somewhere in the system, it was hotter than the outside ambient temp. So average was higher.
After you shut it off, a lot of the system was still cold, so the average was way lower than the outside temp. Thus the lower pressures.
This will always be true unless there is no liquid in the system to maintain the pressure, or if the system were completely full of liquid.
In which case the compressor would instantly lock up when you turned it on.

Couple of more things:
Make sure the frost on the output side of the evaporator never reaches the compressor. In general, frost means there is liquid Freon present. Compressors cannot compress liquids, and if any gets into the compressor, it will hydrolock and be destroyed.
Also, there are several types of systems. No idea of which system you have.

In many cases, especially with expansion valves, the compressor runs all the time. The expansion valve throttles the liquid, letting more or less through according to the temp of the evaporator.
When the valve starts restricting the flow, the excess liquid from the compressor is stored in the accumulator tank.

I see a couple of things about your setup that just look.......wrong. In theory, the expansion valve should not let much frost past its bulb. In fact, in an AC system, I would not expect to see frost at the bulb. The evaporator should not really get cold enough to frost up much at all.
With really high humidity, and low air flow, maybe a small amount, but not enough to restrict the air flow.
This is an air conditioner, not an ice machine.
With the ice machines I work on, I expect to see frost at the bulb. I want the evaporator to freeze so it can make ice.
But, with an AC, the coils should be wet, not frosty. Any frost will cause air blockage, which will cause more frost, and so on.
Having said that, I have seen the return lines frost on truck ACs before, but not much, and not on hot days with full fan.
The amount in your picture is just too much. The expansion valve is not doing its job.
Either because its got problems, its the wrong one for the application, or its sensing wrong.
The bulb placement can be critical. Its the only way the valve has to sense what is going on.
The bulb senses the average temp it sees. If it were uninsulated, it would be reading the line temp as well as the outside air temp.
It must be reading the line temp only. Personally I don't like it being outside the air plenum.

The first thing I would do, unless you are going to replace it, in which case wait until you get the new one, is remove all the insulation. Unclamp the bulb from the line. Clean the line and the bulb really well. There must not be anything between them that could cause the bulb to not sense the line temp as fast as possible.
Then, if you can, put the bulb on the bottom of the line.
As the boiling freon comes out, it will be running along the bottom of the line, and you want the bulb to see it as soon as it shows up.
Then, clamp the bulb tight to the line. Almost tight enough to crimp the line or bulb. They make copper strap clamps for that purpose, but if the lines are aluminum, you probably don't want to use copper. Anything you do use needs to be tight.

Then, if you go back with the black cork insulation, mold it carefully into every seam. Not only do you not want any outside temp to affect the bulb, but you want no air in there at all.
Air can let moisture form, and liquid water will absorb and release heat at different rates than the Freon.
After you get it sealed, add more insulation around the outside. Maybe some of the black foam. You want to make sure that the bulb never sees the outside air.

Then, go back and check air flow. Remember, the amount out the vents means nothing. Its the amount going through the evaporator fins that is important.
If the air is mostly bypassing the evaporator, you will get good cool air flow out the vents, but frost on the evaporator.

Also, a good rule of thumb, is 20 degrees temp drop. In other words, measure the air temp going into the evaporator out of the cab, and the air out the vents should be about 20 degrees cooler.
80 degrees in , 60 degrees out is good.
As the air inside cools, so will the air coming out.
More drop than that, you run the risk of frost, and high inside humidity.
For instance, if you put in 80 degree air, and got 40 degree out, you would cool off things really fast, but you would probably get fog out the vents.
Ideally, you want the air to make several passes through the evaporator losing moisture every time before things get to the cool you want.
Also remember, your system may be set up for compressor cycling, but with an expansion valve, it may not. Lots of systems never cycle the compressor except for extreme conditions.
Just depends on how your system is designed.

Here is a chart showing 134A pressures vs temperatures in a static system with liquid in the system.

at1600.jpg
 
For the most part, refrigeration is simple.
First of all, the gas laws work. If you have a closed system, with no artificial drivers, such as a running compressor, and there is some liquid in the system, then the pressure at all points in the system is directly controlled by the temperature.
In other words, suppose you have a tank of a gas that is about half liquid and half gas. The pressure in that tank depends on the average temp of the liquid/gas in the tank and its boiling point.
If you increase the temp, a small amount of the liquid will boil off and increase the pressure.
If you decrease the temp, a small amount of the gas will condense and lower the pressure.

Note: The temp is the average temp of the system. So, when you were reading the pressure before startup, probably somewhere in the system, it was hotter than the outside ambient temp. So average was higher.
After you shut it off, a lot of the system was still cold, so the average was way lower than the outside temp. Thus the lower pressures.
This will always be true unless there is no liquid in the system to maintain the pressure, or if the system were completely full of liquid.
In which case the compressor would instantly lock up when you turned it on.

Couple of more things:
Make sure the frost on the output side of the evaporator never reaches the compressor. In general, frost means there is liquid Freon present. Compressors cannot compress liquids, and if any gets into the compressor, it will hydrolock and be destroyed.
Also, there are several types of systems. No idea of which system you have.

In many cases, especially with expansion valves, the compressor runs all the time. The expansion valve throttles the liquid, letting more or less through according to the temp of the evaporator.
When the valve starts restricting the flow, the excess liquid from the compressor is stored in the accumulator tank.

I see a couple of things about your setup that just look.......wrong. In theory, the expansion valve should not let much frost past its bulb. In fact, in an AC system, I would not expect to see frost at the bulb. The evaporator should not really get cold enough to frost up much at all.
With really high humidity, and low air flow, maybe a small amount, but not enough to restrict the air flow.
This is an air conditioner, not an ice machine.
With the ice machines I work on, I expect to see frost at the bulb. I want the evaporator to freeze so it can make ice.
But, with an AC, the coils should be wet, not frosty. Any frost will cause air blockage, which will cause more frost, and so on.
Having said that, I have seen the return lines frost on truck ACs before, but not much, and not on hot days with full fan.
The amount in your picture is just too much. The expansion valve is not doing its job.
Either because its got problems, its the wrong one for the application, or its sensing wrong.
The bulb placement can be critical. Its the only way the valve has to sense what is going on.
The bulb senses the average temp it sees. If it were uninsulated, it would be reading the line temp as well as the outside air temp.
It must be reading the line temp only. Personally I don't like it being outside the air plenum.

The first thing I would do, unless you are going to replace it, in which case wait until you get the new one, is remove all the insulation. Unclamp the bulb from the line. Clean the line and the bulb really well. There must not be anything between them that could cause the bulb to not sense the line temp as fast as possible.
Then, if you can, put the bulb on the bottom of the line.
As the boiling freon comes out, it will be running along the bottom of the line, and you want the bulb to see it as soon as it shows up.
Then, clamp the bulb tight to the line. Almost tight enough to crimp the line or bulb. They make copper strap clamps for that purpose, but if the lines are aluminum, you probably don't want to use copper. Anything you do use needs to be tight.

Then, if you go back with the black cork insulation, mold it carefully into every seam. Not only do you not want any outside temp to affect the bulb, but you want no air in there at all.
Air can let moisture form, and liquid water will absorb and release heat at different rates than the Freon.
After you get it sealed, add more insulation around the outside. Maybe some of the black foam. You want to make sure that the bulb never sees the outside air.

Then, go back and check air flow. Remember, the amount out the vents means nothing. Its the amount going through the evaporator fins that is important.
If the air is mostly bypassing the evaporator, you will get good cool air flow out the vents, but frost on the evaporator.

Also, a good rule of thumb, is 20 degrees temp drop. In other words, measure the air temp going into the evaporator out of the cab, and the air out the vents should be about 20 degrees cooler.
80 degrees in , 60 degrees out is good.
As the air inside cools, so will the air coming out.
More drop than that, you run the risk of frost, and high inside humidity.
For instance, if you put in 80 degree air, and got 40 degree out, you would cool off things really fast, but you would probably get fog out the vents.
Ideally, you want the air to make several passes through the evaporator losing moisture every time before things get to the cool you want.
Also remember, your system may be set up for compressor cycling, but with an expansion valve, it may not. Lots of systems never cycle the compressor except for extreme conditions.
Just depends on how your system is designed.

Here is a chart showing 134A pressures vs temperatures in a static system with liquid in the system.

View attachment 391396
Thanks for the detailed response. Had to read it twice to catch all the info. I will redo the expansion valve bulb. I don’t remember if it’s actually clamped. Seems like the black insulating tape just held it on. Then move it to bottom of pipe.
I had decided to try a vintage air last night, but now I will put off till I try this out.
Thanks again.
 
I had decided to try a vintage air last night, but now I will put off till I try this out.
Thanks again.
Personally, after owning a Vintage air system years ago, I wouldn't jump to it if you already have this system. I wasn't super impressed with several things about that system. I actually removed it after several years, but the cooling worked fine in the dry climate that I live in. I would think that you should be able to get this one working better.
 
In many cases, especially with expansion valves, the compressor runs all the time. The expansion valve throttles the liquid, letting more or less through according to the temp of the evaporator.
When the valve starts restricting the flow, the excess liquid from the compressor is stored in the accumulator tank.

Compressor running all the time doesn't sound right, even for a TXV automotive system. There should be a low pressure switch to cycle the compressor, or it could be a variable displacement type compressor. If you have plenty of flow and pressure at idle (as described), what's happening on the highway? How does the valve select where the refrigerant goes when it only has 1 inlet and 1 outlet? The entire accumulator is at low-side pressure. If the valve just reduces the flow, what happens to the high-side pressure?

Ohh after 10 min getting warmer.

I've had frozen evap before and it's just like you describe - starts out cooling OK, then gets worse the longer it runs. Blowing some air past a block of ice does provide some cooling, but it's not nearly as good as flowing air through a cold heat exchanger. The system can't remove heat efficiently. As an experiment you can cycle the on/off switch manually to keep the pressure above freezing and see what that does to the vent temps. When you shut this thing down and let it sit, does water run out? It sounds like the evap is mounted under the dash, so I'm wondering where the condensate goes.
 
@Blue85, Well, that is what I get for typing too fast and too late at night.
Lets change what I said and make the accumulator a receiver/dryer.
They both have similar functions in a way.
The accumulator collects any stray liquid freon to keep it from getting into the compressor and destroying it.
The receiver/dryer, "receives" any excess hot liquid that occurs when the compressor is putting out more than the evaporator needs.
As the expansion valve closes to throttle the flow, it collects in the receiver until its needed. Plus, the condenser can also hold a lot of liquid.
The longer the hot gas from the compressor stays in the condenser, the more it condenses and takes up much less room.
Its not uncommon for a condenser and receiver to be able to hold the entire charge of the system in the radiator as a liquid.

In fact, in lots of larger cooling units, especially when the evaporator, condenser and compressor are a long ways apart and often at different levels its common for the cut off switch for the system to be a pressure switch on the low side.
When the thermostat or whatever control device goes to turn off the system, it does not actually turn off the system.
Instead, it turns off a solenoid valve where the Freon goes into the regulating device.
The compressor and fans continue to run, but no gas or liquid goes into the evaporator. You would think the pressures would skyrocket, but with the condenser cooling fan or water running, the gas continues to turn into a liquid.
Since the evaporator is not adding heat to the system anymore, the gas in the condenser gets cooler and cooler.

As soon as a low side pressure switch reaches its cutoff point, the whole system shuts down. Usually the switch is set just above regular outside pressure to make sure no air or moisture will get in, but many times they pull it down to a vacuum.
If the solenoid valve should leak slightly and let the pressure build up, the system will kick on briefly to pull it back down.

This is done so that all the freon is in the condenser, which is usually at the same or lower point as the compressor.
Otherwise, when the system shuts down it could leave a large amount of liquid in the evaporator which might be a couple of stories above the compressor.
When it starts back up, the first push of freon could cause a large amount of liquid to hit the compressor at once.
To restart the unit, the solenoid opens and the compressor starts up when the low pressure switch gets high enough.

I found this diagram of a expansion valve truck system, maybe it will make it more clear.
Only problem is, it does not show an accumulator.......

Edit: Just remembered, I used to have several ice machines that I kept up for folks. One problem with them was that they would quit working if the outside temp got to about 40 or so.
They were not supposed to be outside units, but folks found them second hand, I fixed them up, and they put them in barns and sheds to ice down their fishing boxes on weekends and coolers during the week.

Since they were designed to move lots of heat in warm weather, the condensers were fairly large. When the air temp got too low, all the Freon would collect in the condensers and there would not be enough head pressure to push the liquid through the system.
I would install pressure switches on the output of the condensers to control the fan. They would not turn on the fan until the pressure got to about 150lbs.
Then turn it off at about 110.
On a cold day, the fan might only run less than a minute at a time. All the Freon was staying in the condenser.

Figure-1-Basic-of-automotive-AC-cycle-17.png
 
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