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California Smog issues

Not a cheap way out , but the MSD Atomic efi is CARB legal on any year GM v8 originally equipped with a carb.
You would still need the rest of the smog equipment though.
 
paratrooper307 said:
Ah, California, where the rules are made up and points don't matter...I'm convinced that most of these CA smog laws are weed older vehicles out of the population by making it too much trouble to keep them legal, while at the same time generating revenue for the government.
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Ding ding ding, come on down you're the winner. The state is ran by the far left and yes, old vehicles must get off the road before they kill the children.
 
1985 and 86 are literally the worst years for 1/2ton Chevys here in the state of CA. Both of those years used the computer controlled carburetor and distributor advance. My '85 in my avatar was a disaster under the hood and ran like crap. Fortunately with yours being federal I don't think it has to be converted to CA specs, just has to pass with it's federal smog system intact, and obviously pass out the tail pipe on the sniffer too.

Also, you might have some grounds with the PO. It's their responsibility to get the vehicle smogged when it sells. Also, while I HATE my tax dollars being stolen from me and wasted on stupid programs, you might as well look into what qualifies you for what I believe is either $500 or $1000 in assistance to get it legal or full on buy back by the state.
 
As a retired CARB (California Air Resources Board inspector/adjuster I can throw a little light on this situation.

I dislike anyone who messes with my breathing, since I had to move to Montana so I could breathe without coughing up a kidney or my spleen. I've got COPD from Agent Orange when I was in Vietnam and I show little remorse for anyone caught trying to remove anti-smog equipment from their vehicle.

YOU - as a Whittier resident are living in an area of Full Compliance. I was first licensed in Orange County - Anaheim as it was ... so I know your area well.

I know the confusion involved in the "seller has to do this", and the "seller is not responsible" or "the vehicle was sold 'as-is' " etc., etc.

Since having been a California Class A licensed MVPC inspector/adjuster since 1965 and then a referee later on, I've seen your situation quite a few times.

1. The seller - if from another state - is NOT responsible for the legality of the vehicle if it is purchased in California without current registration, requiring a Vehicle Emissions Test prior to registering in California. This is only one of the "caveat emptor' situations where the BUYER is required to bring the vehicle up TO FEDERAL LEVELS, NOT just to CALIFORNIA LEVELS.

  • It appears to me that you cannot claim this exemption because of both the seller's and buyer's residence.

This is a federal law ... California decided to comply with the Feds to get highway funds in matching money to build and repair the roads you drive upon, etc. IOW: it's not just California's idea - although California has been instrumental in configuring the standards and not the other way around.

The seller living in California - and you also residing in California with a non-compliant and unregistered out-of-state vehicle, are both in some significant trouble here.

You are not on the hook to get it smogged though - it's the California seller's responsibility.

You seem to have opted to buy/find the parts and if you do that, you may exonerate and abridge the seller of his responsibility. That would be a civil judge's rule however, and not necessarily the letter of the law.

The state may go after him anyway, no matter what you do in this situation.

You may be eligible for court ordered repayment of anything you pay to get the vehicle 'smogged'.

How far out of date is the last registration? That could be serious money if it's a long time overdue.

More on this further down, but prepare to be surprised.​

2. Once the vehicle has been brought to showroom standards for the original state in which it was sold (California, Federal/CONUS or Canadian) , and all penalties and fees from the state(s) in which the registration(s) expired are fully collected, and a new registration is filed for in California, the vehicle will go to an inspection station to be tested for emissions, with a visual and functional test of the approved devices.

Then the vehicle will be run on a dyno at speed to test for the correct function of the devices. The "function" of these devices - when they are working correctly - will bring the tailpipe emissions into the correct range as set forth by the US Federal AQMD, the Federal ARB and CAFE standards.

Some AWD and 4WD vehicles are exempt of the dyno though - I don't believe yours is as the 4WD can be disconnected.

HOWEVER:​

Changing carburetors, cams, headers, even the wrong transmission - if detected - and different tire size can/will cause the vehicle to fall into the "Modified, Missing, Disconnected" (MMD) category that will put you in Referee Hell, and cost a lot of MONEY FIRST in an attempt to locate obsolete or hard to find (read: "expensive") parts.​

The referee will attempt to find these parts and will inform the seller where they can be purchased. A time and date will be set for a return testing that cannot be ignored but can be extended - but not for monetary considerations. If it costs too much, that's not an excuse.

One of these 'parts' is the under hood sticker. It must be there or replaced with a like sticker from the manufacturer. Third party stickers were not allowed when I was an inspector - that law may have changed for the older vintage of some vehicles.​

The vehicle will only be legal to drive or dolly tow (two or more wheels on the road) on any California street, road or highway on the way to or from the referee's inspection location. The new registration will be held in limbo until the vehicle and the owner comply with this one-trip permission.​

If subsequent 'one trip' passes are required, the referee will acquire them for you.​

3. In a California owner-to-California owner sale, there is no "As Is" consideration.

The seller is ALWAYS responsible to if even having advertised for sale, barter, trade or in any way releasing control of a vehicle that is mandated to have been up to current legal and Federally Mandated Emissions Program condition(s); bearing a current Emission Control Inspection Certificate (a smog test) that is dated no more than 30 days old. Sect.24.7, paragraphs 1 through 15; CDMV Law.

Technically, ALL vehicles in any advertisements or on bulletin boards have to have a less than 30-day old smog cert.

Dealers are exempt of this law if they have a Class A inspector/adjuster working on their premises but the vehicle still has to be in compliance first. Cars that won't pass are junked - and in some situations like a 'push-pull or drive trade-in anything with an engine' type sales.​

4. A judge in civil disputes about these owner v seller responsibilities will side with the law as it is written no matter if both the seller and/or the buyer opt to say that the buyer will assume the responsibility for bringing the vehicle in for the required pre-sale inspection.

Typically if it hits court, the law stands and the seller is fried on the spot for non-compliance.​

5. Any unpaid lapse in registration, either in California or another state will be paid in full including any fines or penalties for the failure or length of time or lapse in registration before a new California registration will be issued.AFAIK: a bond will no longer be accepted. .

Every state wants their piece of the money to which they are due..... beware! This can get nasty with bank your account and tax refund seizures! California will report to the other states what it finds and is collectable. Other states may or may not follow suit - it's up to them if they want the $$ or not.

California views failure to register a vehicle as avoiding their property tax law and they will call out the tax board to 'visit' your bank and state tax refunds.

Check your registration receipt for things that are called 'taxes' as these are the grounds with which the state will pursue you. They got Al Capone on taxes - so know this!​

6. This vehicle, if it has been detected as non-compliant by the State of California, will fall into the "Gross Polluters Act" and now may get triggered to be CAL-ARB inspected on a yearly or even every 6 month schedule.... depending on the mood of the referee (that was me! and I'd flag this vehicle if because of any attempt to hide or get away with inspecting/removal of emissions parts, which I'd suspect happens after it leaves the referee).

As you may or may not know, ALL STATES are under the same laws pertaining to vehicle missions.... it's just that some states don't carry out an active inspection program.....YET!

If you think California is tough, try Maryland, New Jersey or Massachusetts. Even Colorado has blood in their eyes for people who illegally modify their vehicles, change engines or rip off smog-related devices. Smog testing is coming to Arizona now too and will be full state in a while. I know as I have property in both Showlow and Concho AZ.

The law will eventually be in every state if that particular state likes federal matching road funding.

Me?

My statements sometimes fall on deaf ears - but it's very risky to purchase an out-of-state vehicle with a lapsed registration and a MMD engine.

A lapsed registration in California can sometimes bring a Smog - Lamp and Brake certification. I had all three Class A licenses up until a couple of years ago.

A weight cert-tag may also be required if the DMV gets a snoot full of attitude from the person on the other side of the counter.​

I hope that you, the OP does the right thing and brings your vehicle up to standards, unlike some people who want to screw the law and do what they want.

BTW: I don't know if the law has been implemented yet, but asking to have a cat reinstalled is illegal and you and the shop can be fined heavily! Under this circumstance, the cat will have to be sent to an independant inspection facility to have the cat tested first for function, then stamped and tagged with an acceptance and then a shop can instal it. That's serious $$$!

If you came into my shop in Brea or Huntington Beach or Anaheim, I'd work with you.

But some of these other replies posted - if you follow their lead - would get you cited and red tagged - quick!

Your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose.

86caliblazer said:
Hi,

I am new to this site but I am in need of some help. I bought my 86 blazer from a young man here is southern California but was not aware that the blazer came from the state of Washington. It came with no Smog emission parts and now after thinking that I would be an easy fix I have reliazed that it is not. I have purchased 90% of the parts needed but I now either need full array of pictures of some ones blazer that has all of the parts on it so that I can duplicate the process or maybe a referrel to a mechanic here in the Whittier area for some help.

I hope to hear from someone here who can help me with either one of this solutions.

Again thank you 86caliblazer
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Very informative read and a lots of good information. I only failed twice due to evap test. It bad when you super low tailpipe emissions and fail by .10 on evap. Allowed ,40, had .50 leak.
 
Like I say.... it's FEDERAL, not state laws here.

If your particular state decides to not enforce the law, then so be it. That state's citizens though, may be at the mercy of having to play catch up to be in compliance all at once if the Feds get into that state's non-inspection program and start one up.
 
I appreciate Joe in Montana's comments, but the reality is this is another way of California over reaching into our daily lives, like the very fact they can regulate and tax a car that isn't operating on public roads. It is an outrage.

CARB is a bureaucratic disaster that tries to fleece aftermarket manufactures trying to access consumers in California. Fortunately most States won't adopt the inspection crap that California has in place because it's too expensive. It is why Illinois has stopped having OBD1 cars inspected, and stopped having all cars dyno'd every two years.

In my opinion, cars with non stock parts should be able to have the final test be a sniffer test, to determine if the car operates within acceptable standards, not a visual by a referee.

Lastly, the fears that somebody's lungs are negatively effected by a couple of vintage blazers putting on non stock parts sounds like standard Democratic politics to me. God forbid they put on an aftermarket fuel injection system that wasn't CARB approved. I'd be more worried about all those unregulated, two stroke lawn mowers out there !!!!
 
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retroblazer said:
I appreciate Joe in Montana's comments, but the reality is this is another way of California over reaching into our daily lives, like the very fact they can regulate and tax a car that isn't operating on public roads. It is an outrage.

CARB is a bureaucratic disaster that tries to fleece aftermarket manufactures trying to access consumers in California. Fortunately most States won't adopt the inspection crap that California has in place because it's too expensive. It is why Illinois has stopped having OBD1 cars inspected, and stopped having all cars dyno'd every two years.

In my opinion, cars with non stock parts should be able to have the final test be a sniffer test, to determine if the car operates within acceptable standards, not a visual by a referee.

Lastly, the fears that somebody's lungs are negatively effected by a couple of vintage blazers putting on non stock parts sounds like standard Democratic politics to me. God forbid they put on an aftermarket fuel injection system that wasn't CARB approved. I'd be more worried about all those unregulated, two stroke lawn mowers out there !!!!
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Other than that, Mrs Lincoln: How'd you like the play?

Since you state it's "In my (your) opinion" - so then MY opinion is this----

I had to move outta SoCal, (nitrous oxide-type smog) tried to live in Denver, (nitrous oxide-type smog) tried to live in Salt Lake City, (nitrous oxide-type smog), tried to live in Phoenix (nitrous oxide-type smog).

Your type is ruining MY ability to breathe.

I was badly contaminated with Agent Orange in VietNam, and while you have no likely understanding of why I was there - and obviously will also care not - I cannot breathe the air you are destroying for me, unheard of millions of other people and unborn children, people who think they have bad sinuses when in reality they are being eaten up on the insides by the nitric acid that nitrous oxide converts to when it hits liquid (eg: acid rain) and mucous membranes in living animals (humans, dogs, and yes - your cat) so that our lives are shortened while you are free to grossly pollute out air?

Pompous jerks - who might be like yourself are the reason why I will tell you:

Your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose. And my lungs. And my stinging eyes.​

.
 
I don't live near you.

I did live in Yucca Valley though.
And Desert Hot Springs.
And LaQuinta.
And Anza.
And Hemet.
They all stink from smog.
Smog drove me out.
You like it there?
Good for you.
Sit!
Stay!
Good boy!

I also lived in Chihuahua Valley and it was pretty nice.
But then again, you weren't there yet.
 
I think everyone understands the importance of clean air, it's the bureaucratic nonsense over things that don't impact air quality. For instance, say you have an old carb'd Blazer and replace the parts with a modern fuel injection system and emissions. You're going to run cleaner than it did with the antiquated emissions controls and the more inefficient carburetor, but you'd fail because you modified the factory system. You then have to go through the inconsistent and sometimes arbitrary process of dealing with the referee, and the litany of rules and regulations. I'd agree with retroblazer- if you're really concerned about pollution, skip the visual check and just do a sniffer test. The proof is in the pudding. If it's as clean or cleaner than the standard for vehicles of that vintage, then it's a pass. I'm not one to advocate polluting, but like many bureaucratic programs, you end up costing a lot of money and hassle and not accomplishing much.

Yes, federal laws say that you can't tamper with emissions devices, but shouldn't that requirement be limited to modifications that cause a detriment to emissions? For instance, a properly functioning catch can will reduce emissions because you're capturing oil that would normally be sucked into the intake and burned (which reduces engine efficiency and increases emissions)-yet it is technically illegal because it constitutes a modification of emissions systems. Diesel particulate filters operate under the premise of lowering emissions, but modern emissions-compliant diesels also get worse fuel mileage because of those parts, so what's that really helping?
 
Take the washinginton title and go to AZ or NV "sell it" to a CK5 member , have them sell it back to you and then do a LS Swap and get it California legal.

Avoids all the BS fees and crap CA will try and charge you for the out of state-out of date tags , if it has CA tags already you would have to do a lien against it out of state and get the title that way to avoid all that crap .

Have bought some really nice rigs from out there that were basically worthless because the tags/and or the smog cert had been expired . California will try to get there money for the smog and registration fees when you try register it out of state , which is why sometimes we would just do Mechnics lien and get the title that way.

The smog testing thing I can kinda sort of go along with if it was done right.( but it's not) but the registration laws in CA are just another way to bleed people dry.
 
I think we can dial back some of the animosity. I doubt many of us are firmly entrenched in one camp or the other. There has to be a balance drawn, because the alternative is no internal combustion engines.

I doubt anyone thinks that firing up your rig with the garage door shut and sitting there is not going to adversely affect your health. And that's a micro-level example of the harm that can come from tailpipe emissions.

The valid IMO argument against what the government is doing (at the state and local level) is that the rules and regulations (as with anything the government gets involved in) are made generally by people who are not scientists, who are not interested in anything but pushing an agenda of one sort or another.

As noted, if we are concerned with health, why is ANYTHING beyond a sniffer-type emissions test required? While I don't agree that it's a problem or the right approach, I can also understand a visual inspection to insure something hasn't been jury-rigged to drive down emissions temporarily, but that's it. If a vehicle smogs at or below what it did from the factory, there is zero reason the government or anyone else should care.

The fact that you can't add a catalytic converter to a vehicle that didn't have one from the factory is stupid, particularly if I'm getting smogged. Yes, converters need to be installed in the right location to work properly, but again, if the tailpipe emissions are below what is established for that vehicle, why is that converter a federal concern? If I can cram a Dodge Ecodiesel in my K5, burning 50% less fuel, and meet the emissions of the vehicle the engine came from, why shouldn't that be legal?

California is an example of emissions laws working. Go back to the 60's and 70's to see how bad it was. Things did not get better by magic. Strict rules did not eliminate the problem, but it's not Mexico City either. There is incontrovertible evidence that the emissions laws worked. But they've now gone beyond reason, which is the inevitable result when the government gets involved and people with agendas drive the rules.
 
I don't know about the connection between the laws and the vehicles on the road, I'd argue it's because the normal consumer cycle causes the older vehicles to be traded up for something newer which in fact was cleaner though indirectly caused by law changes. That's the thing the majority of the vehicles on the road do meet emissions requirements and the instance of the hot rodder is very low, this is where the problem lies in my mind, the mass is responsible for the problem not the minority.. in this case we're talking about a very very small percentage of vehicles that are either modified or do not meet standards.
This is the same thinking that says we need to change a law because one person abused it, when in reality the rest of the people were compliant and it did nothing to change the environment.

The laws I do agree changed the future vehicles and made them cleaner, which isn't bad because some of that drives the innovation and technology. The funniest part to be is the DI engine by nature emits some ridiculous nox if you compare it directly to an engine that is injected via the intake tract.. so now we have these extremely powerful and efficient engines that are technically dirtier


http://articles.sae.org/13624/

I cite this article.
 
sreidmx said:
I don't know about the connection between the laws and the vehicles on the road, I'd argue it's because the normal consumer cycle causes the older vehicles to be traded up for something newer which in fact was cleaner though indirectly caused by law changes. That's the thing the majority of the vehicles on the road do meet emissions requirements and the instance of the hot rodder is very low, this is where the problem lies in my mind, the mass is responsible for the problem not the minority.. in this case we're talking about a very very small percentage of vehicles that are either modified or do not meet standards.
This is the same thinking that says we need to change a law because one person abused it, when in reality the rest of the people were compliant and it did nothing to change the environment.

The laws I do agree changed the future vehicles and made them cleaner, which isn't bad because some of that drives the innovation and technology. The funniest part to be is the DI engine by nature emits some ridiculous nox if you compare it directly to an engine that is injected via the intake tract.. so now we have these extremely powerful and efficient engines that are technically dirtier


http://articles.sae.org/13624/

I cite this article.
Click to expand...

While the normal attrition rate for old-to-new vehicles can and does drive the wheels of industry, much of that industry is foreign and has not done the US engine of industry much good.

Except for the fact that steel and aluminum processing is very wasteful of the huge amount of energy they consume (coal fired power plants?) - and that that process has been sent to foreign lands where emission control is non-existing, saving the US Homeland from that material processing amount of gross pollution too.

Ergo: we still have a plethora of older, dirtier vehicles being either piecemeal resurrected or brought back to life because of the monetary infrastructure (I one will allow that term to be coined) that won't allow most families to buy a new car on an industrial-slash-consumer black bag planned-monthly-obsolescence program. .

Truer words were never spoken though, about the DI engines making more NOx since exceeding stoichemetric temperature is part of the "improved" forced charge system and what with a greater abundance of Nitrogen with Oxygen achieving higher temps is what drives the pistons to seek lower pressure on their crowns.

ALL internal combustion (Otto cyclic or Diesel) engines are just glorified heat pumps in reality.

I digress.

FWIW: The air in SoCal is NOT better - not on a per-capita basis anyway.

It's the tremendous number of vehicles - even if they emitted cute puppy dogs and candy corn out their tailpipes, cannot be brought into reign any more. The most modern engines - (remember the experimental Volvo engine that produced MINUS-emissions?) - cannot correct what is a rising amount of sheer vehicles producing what is said to be "good quality emissions".

IOW: even if every vehicle was type-accepted as EPA Clean, the amount of emissions is still much higher than in 1968 Pasadena, California air that one had to breathe, on a hot, humid and sun-shining day. I was there as testimony.

That's also why I became a Class A Brake / Lamp & Smog Installer, Adjuster and Inspector for the State Of California for 42 years. I was Cal/ARB Certified and as a Referee in the same program, I saw so many crappola installations of illegal engine swaps that did NOT in any way improve their baseline OE Performance Standards of Emissions in allowed HC or NOx g/mile.

Modified - Missing - or Disconnected (MMD) was the criteria that held the most water as almost to the 100th percentile; these abortions and mashups were dirtier in the dynomometer tests - no matter that they passed with flying colors at idle or 1100-1400 RPM No Load testing with a tailpipe sniffer.

Just take a TDI engine and let the turbo spin up and then see what happens to the emissions! This is one of the ways VW got busted.

As a matter-of-fact - most "Smog Testing" is normally done at dyno speeds UNDER 30 MPH - and there's the catch. I say that the testing should be a 60 MPH with at least a 70% - 75% Load Reading at the scanner.

Let's see how many mashups would pass then.
 
Hey Joe,
Let's get one thing straight. I have the utmost respect for those that serve our country, particularly for those who enlisted.
Not to get personal, but given your view of our environment, it appears to be at odds with a vintage truck hobby. I'm sure I speak for more than myself, especially those of us that live in California, that having your insights are very helpful. We probably agree on far more things than we don't. I can also appreciate that you are like a police officer, and follow the letter of the law. It's black and white. It's the law.
For most of us, we have to navigate the law. My Suburban has headers that were dyno smog tested in Illinois, yet because they don't have a CARB tag, they are illegal. Same with my hiflow cat. exact same part, but no CARB tag. Can you imagine if every state did the same thing?

Most of us have a hot rodder mentality. I'm a chronic speeder, but a considerate driver. It's only by divine intervention that I don't have a mass of speeding tickets. It also means that if I can retrofit fuel injection in place of a 30 year old, worn out carb, and improve emissions and performance, that I will do my best to slide it under the noses of the inspectors. We both want clean air.
 
Test any engine at full spool none will pass any sniffer.. tdi included.. what sort of comparison are you attempting to link here? I must not be following what direction this has taken.. I thought the OP was asking for help with his aged K5?
 
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