CK5
Register an account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members.

Can a different type of fuel pump be used on a TBI system

scpaul

1/2 ton status
Joined
Oct 2, 2016
Posts
278
Reaction score
30
Location
central area of S.C.
I've never been wild about the arrangement of locating the fuel pump in the tank itself. It just seems alot of trouble to work on or replace the pump by having to remove the tank, which is usually at least 1/2 full. Would it be possible for an electric fuel pump that isn't in the tank to generate enough fuel pressure to operate a 5.7 TBI set-up to operate? Would the position of the pump mounting be a factor other than self priming? What are the low and high side pressures for a 5.7 TBI to operate properly? Does the computer change the fuel pressure to match conditions like temp, atmospheric pressure, exhaust gas composition, etc?

Just trying to understand, thanks, Paul
 
People have been using inline pumps for years with TBI. A popular choice is the Carter P5001 and Airtex e2000. Most use them without issue if it's close enough to and below the tank as they do well pushing but not pulling in fuel and need gravity to help. I believe the range for TBI to work is 10-14psi, there is a built in regulator in the throttle body that you can either swap in a spring or make adjustable, but the factory one that is in there should regulate the pressure to 10-14psi. The computer doesn't do any changes apart from the 5sec priming when first turning the key.
 
Unfortunately with the condition of the modern aftermarket, and even OEM, nothing is a guarantee anymore, but the original pumps routinely ran 10-20 years.

Compared to the hassles, typical noise, and "danger" (speaking solely of introducing additional fittings in the fuel system) of plumbing an external pump, shooting for a good electric in-tank pump is generally the best choice.

Not sure what folks do about the sending unit when they remove the pump, perhaps just extend the rubber hose to the bottom?
 
Last edited:
pump in tank = quieter / fuel cools the pump for longer life and less heat build up / higher pressure pump push MUCH better than pull fuel to create the pressure needed / good quality pump should get you 80k miles range before thinking about it again .

now if your doing all custom stuff or weird non factory stuff then go for it .
 
I used to run a 6 or 800 gal/hr Stewart Warner electric pump in my trunk. I'm trying to relate the old way to the new system. I also had a hidden fuel pump switch so when one of my buddy's would "borrow" my car, I knew that it wasn't but a couple of blocks away and less if he touched the back barrels, which they just had to so that I'd hear it over the sound system.

I'm almost at the point of taking all of this high tech stuff off and put the old stuff back on, but I don't want to go too far from stock.

I do appreciate the info. Any other particulars would be greatly appreciated too.

Paul
 
Pull the fuel pump and/or ECM fuse if you don't want it going anywhere. If you REALLY wanted to get tricky, put a blown fuse in it's place.

Are you on an EFI retrofit, or a stock TBI truck, or...?
 
Every vehicle manufacturer puts the pump in the tank just to make your life harder. Or it's proven to be most reliable. One of those.
 
Dyeager,

My friends and I aren't teens any more, so I don't have to worry too much about them hot wiring my car at a party any more. The hidden switch is just an added bonus that would be nice now days, especially since stuff is so bad about just walking off.

I've been through the original owners manual fuse location pages (5-28 and 6-6+7) several times and there isn't a fuse or breaker labeled fuel. The ECM and probably some other fuse would work, but flipping a hidden switch (not a lighted one, Ha Ha) would be easier, wouldn't it?

I have never had real good luck with the pump in the tank. I don't remember how many, but I've had to replace a few. Some were pretty expensive.

I can't believe that with our technology, using cooling and noise doesn't justify the time, trouble and expense of it being in the tank. Can you give me a GOOD reason. I personally believe that they are making vehicles, on purpose, now so that the average "Joe" can't or has enough trouble that he will take it to a dealer or a shop. The good shops are almost as expensive as the dealer. Mechanics (Automotive Service Technicians) need to work, too, but on some things, I'd like to make the decision myself. I know that this is splitting hairs, but warm fuel doesn't generate as much power as cold/cooler fuel. I mainly just do not like the pump in the tank set-up.

I wasn't aware of the TBI having a built in pressure regulator and a spring controlling the pressure. I really appreciate that information.

This is mainly just me thinking of different ways to do things. If the pump in this thing is OK, I'm not going to can it.

Since I'm a dinosaur and don't know or understand how things are done now, I'm very appreciative of the information that y'all have given to me.I'm still working on the minor paint work, but all of this will be very helpful when I get past it.

By the way, can the tank be removed with the truck sitting on the ground, or better yet, how tall is the tank?

Thank y'all very much for everything, Paul
 
Dyeager,
I've been through the original owners manual fuse location pages (5-28 and 6-6+7) several times and there isn't a fuse or breaker labeled fuel. The ECM and probably some other fuse would work, but flipping a hidden switch (not a lighted one, Ha Ha) would be easier, wouldn't it?

I have never had real good luck with the pump in the tank. I don't remember how many, but I've had to replace a few. Some were pretty expensive.

I can't believe that with our technology, using cooling and noise doesn't justify the time, trouble and expense of it being in the tank. Can you give me a GOOD reason. I personally believe that they are making vehicles, on purpose, now so that the average "Joe" can't or has enough trouble that he will take it to a dealer or a shop. The good shops are almost as expensive as the dealer. Mechanics (Automotive Service Technicians) need to work, too, but on some things, I'd like to make the decision myself. I know that this is splitting hairs, but warm fuel doesn't generate as much power as cold/cooler fuel. I mainly just do not like the pump in the tank set-up.

I wasn't aware of the TBI having a built in pressure regulator and a spring controlling the pressure. I really appreciate that information.

This is mainly just me thinking of different ways to do things. If the pump in this thing is OK, I'm not going to can it.

Since I'm a dinosaur and don't know or understand how things are done now, I'm very appreciative of the information that y'all have given to me.I'm still working on the minor paint work, but all of this will be very helpful when I get past it.

By the way, can the tank be removed with the truck sitting on the ground, or better yet, how tall is the tank?

Thank y'all very much for everything, Paul

On the TBI trucks, the ECM fuse (are there two?) is probably the one for the fuel pump. Is there a single inline fuse holder in the engine bay on the TBI trucks? I do not recall, I know TPI uses a fuel pump fuse under hood.

I'm just not a fan of screwing with anything that adds another failure point to the truck. I find enough from the factory. That is a personal thing, plenty of people do so without issue however. I got a column guard for when I really want to make sure no one takes it (like when the top is off and I am parking it in public) but having a manual trans probably helps lol.

Not like I'm one to talk, but worrying about the pump warming fuel up is probably overthinking things. Liquid cools better than air, so an in-tank pump in fuel is going to stay cooler than an external pump that isn't actively being cooled. I don't think that is a real consideration however, either one is an electric motor that is generating heat that I assume even without being in fuel passes heat TO the fuel.

SO FAR I've had good luck with AC Delco fuel pumps. The new ones are coming from China, and while that isn't a good thing, it doesn't mean they are bad, IF Delco isn't allowing them to cut corners over there. The last one I had in the truck was obviously pre-ethanol, and ran for ~10 years before the hose split, but there was nothing wrong with the pump itself. There are probably some good aftermarket pumps, but if they don't cost as much as the Delco, or more, they probably aren't very good units.

Other than being designed for an in-tank pump, I really don't see much benefit to the in-tank setup over external. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with the in-tank setup, and I know GM spent a ton of money making sure it worked good enough to sell to the public, but that was likely just quieter, safer and easier packaging on the vehicle vs. pure performance benefit. Obviously GM felt whatever tradeoff there was, was worth the expense. The in-tank setup to me seems a much more complex/costly solution than running a pump on the frame somewhere. There might be SOME better cooling with an in-tank pump, but a good external pump *probably* will last just as long. Of course, external pumps are no more of a guarantee to work good than an internal pump. If you have to change either style in less than 50,000 miles, I'd be contacting the manufacturer to find out why.

I've dropped my tank a couple times for various reasons (one the split in-tank pump hose) and I've never put it up in the air to get the tank off. It's got 33's but no lift, so it's not too much more clearance than stock. Skid plate is somewhat of a hassle, the worst part is trying to get the fuel fill hose off the tank or filler neck. Don't cut that thing unless you have a replacement around.
 
dyeager,

Like I said re: the pump heating the fuel is splitting hairs. I do intend to use this pump if it's good. I plan on removing it from the tank without it turning even 1 revolution. I don't know if that will help, but I don't think it can hurt. I don't want to suck any of whatever is in that tank, into the pump. Other than gas, what cleaners should I use on and in the pump. I'm thinking about something like gas with Sea Foam added. I'd like to run the pump out of the tank, in the gas/Sea Foam mixture, but I don't know if that's safe or not. I wish that there was a way to run it constantly for an hour or so before I reinstall it in the tank. If I see a problem with the pump, I'll probably borrow an external fuel pump ( it may be one of my old ones ) from a friend's son just to try it and see how it does.

I know that the tank in my '95 1500 P/U has a guard (plastic?) on the bottom of it, but I haven't looked at this one.

I think that I read that there's a second ECM on the diesel or saddle tanks in the owners manual. The thing about you using a column guard is a moot point with me. The top has never been off, not once. I think that has alot to do with the fact that the joint doesn't doesn't leak even as dry rotted as it is now. Now days if a thief wants it, you have a hard time stopping him 24/7/365. I've had 2 ATV's stolen and they were both very well secured. the piece of chain on the one that I've got now is 1/2" dia. and grade 8. Five feet cost me $60.

I've been on line watching and learning about GM TBI. One of the bits infer that that the TBI for a 5.7 and a 454 are about the same except for the size of the butterflys. He also said that there wasn't that much difference in amount of flow between the two. I can't quote numbers because I basically wrote off the audio and watched the screen. How true is what he said is accurate. I think that he quoted the difference in CFM at about 200 or less CFM. This can't be right can it?

IF there's a problem with the original pump, the spring that is in the pressure regulator, does it make a noticeable difference? When you buy a rebuild kit, do the springs come with the kit? Are the instructions/pictures (I can read the pictures pretty good!) generally pretty good?

I'm going to keep looking around and try to figure what's right and whats B.S.

Thanks Y'all, Paul
 
I don't believe in any of the "super cleaners" when it comes to fuel gunk. I ran my truck engine consistently (95% of fillups) on "cheap" AM/PM (Arco) gas, and on disassembly found nothing to indicate the fuel was causing any issues with buildup that any sort of "cleaner" might have helped. Ethanol is a pretty strong solvent, fresh gas would probably be my choice to run a pump in, or use a solvent in the fuel system. There are plenty of stronger solvents out there, I don't see a reason for them. The pumps are just a pretty imprecise impeller setup, not likely they will fail from a little crud on them or through them, which will get caught at the fuel filter. If the pump is submerged in the fuel, it will be fine. It would be worrisome in open air with fuel vapor present, as there will be enough oxygen to potentially ignite if there was a spark. Since the pump is electric, I'd want to avoid that situation as much as possible.

You could hook the pump up to a 12V source and lay it in a bucket of fuel and run it as long as you need.

These trucks are stolen by breaking the drivers window, then smashing the column with a hammer. The column is plastic in that area, so without protecting that spot, they are easy to start and steer. The column guard slows that way down. With a top off, that just means they don't need to draw attention by breaking a window.

490CFM vs 645CFM according to http://www.dynamicefi.com/TBI_Fueling.php
That works out to about 1.4CFM/cubic inch for 350 and 454, so probably correct, or close enough. A 4.3L was all the way up to 1.8!

Spring in the pressure regulator normally doesn't make much difference with the stock TBI pump. I can't remember what the pumps are supposed to be rated at (dead head) but in practice 14PSI was the highest I could get out of a new-ish one (on the truck) by shimming the FPR spring. I don't believe any rebuild kits come with the FPR spring, probably not much need.

If you really want to know, and you have Autozones down there, they will loan you the fuel pressure tester with proper fittings for TBI (if the tester is complete) which you can hookup near the fuel filter (don't monkey with the fittings at the back of the TBI unless you are supremely confident of what you are doing, they are commonly damaged as the fuel hoses/sold lines are bolted to the head) and verify your pressure is good. GM says something ridiculous like 9-13 PSI is acceptable pressure, most generally say by 10PSI you can tell something isn't right.
 
dyeager,

Thanks for the info. I can use it. Don't forget that mine has the vent window that I think should have never been removed. I've seen the truck stolen by breaking it many times. I doubt if it's anywhere near as noisy as the regular window. A pump kill switch might still be a usable idea. It's cheap insurance, unless they use a wrecker or roll back and steal the truck that way.

I'd mainly like to run the pump for a while to make myself feel better, after all it's been sitting for 8 or more years. The cleaning would be an added benefit.

Since it's been said that some people can feel a difference at 10 psi. would a pressure between 12 and 15 psi. be about ideal? I'm assuming that pressure is with the truck sitting still idling.

The TBI from a 454 isn't a direct bolt on for a 5.7 intake, is it. I ask because of something on line.

Thanks again, Paul
 
454 throttle body isn't a direct bolt on (throttle bore mis match, and some years different gaskets to seal up) and would require tuning to run correctly. The throttle body on a tbi 350 is plenty for a stock engine. Cam and heads are the airflow restriction.
 
Thanks Dawg,

I figured as much. There's a self professed TBI doctor that basically said that with the exception of one gasket that they were about the same. I had to ask because of the different computer programs that I've heard about, I just couldn't be sure. I'm trying to keep it as stock/stock looking as I can. Maybe one day I'll just go ahead and go one way or the other. With what I've heard about the stock ends, if I abuse them too much, I'll be looking for more. I'm still aggravated about it not being what I expected. I was expecting the same type of towing package accessories as towing package trucks had in very late '60's to the mid '70's. Talk about disappointed, of course, the truck was basically free, so I guess that I shouldn't gripe too much.

Well thank you again Dawg, Paul
 
About 13PSI is ideal. It's one of those run it and see what it is deal. It may be fine regardless of what the pressure says. Yes, that is idling.
 
From what I've gathered, I've been expecting the general pressure to be in that area. Every one of them is a little different.I'm getting ahead of myself again, but if I wind up doing something different, I'll probably try playing with fuel pressure (try up to 3 more psi. in 1/2 lb. increments) a little to begin with, but again, that is if I wind up having to try something different, especially since, just to try it, I don't think it will cost me hardly anything. Probably nothing at all. I'll wait and see what the pump is like. I got some of the stuff to siphon the tank. Now all I need is a place to dispose of it.

Good night Y'all, Paul
 
Dawg,

I'm just insuring that a variation isn't critical. I'm going to borrow a fuel pressure gauge from somewhere, probably one of the parts houses. I can only guess how accurate it will be. It's probably never been dropped or had any type of chemical in it. I'm just trying to learn the stuff that y'all grew up with. I think that I'm finally getting a half deasent working knowledge of the fuel injection system. I've said it before, consider that when I quit with cars that Fuel injection usually had stacks and the name brand of Enderle.

I can and have been my own worst enemy more than once on things that I was much more familiar with than today's automotive cans and can'ts / do's and don'ts. I'm still tinkering with the minor body problems and trying to stay ahead by trying to somewhat understand where I go from here. When I get it streetable, I'm planning on headers ASAP. Then if I go any further the cam, heads, and reprogram the chip would be next. Didn't they make a reader that could do some of the computer adjustments on the spot and it saved the original settings? If so, that might be worth looking at.

This Jimmy didn't have very much power when it was parked. Could this be one that the performance dropped off when you got down to 10 psi. fuel pressure. I'm not going to adjust or do anything until it's been run enough to see if the rings are going to reseal, if the trans is going to keep working, etc. I'm a ways from trying to start it. I've got what I think is a pretty good plan for that. So now, I'm trying to get the next steps and future finances sorted out now. I guess that's about the best explanation that I can give you for some of my unusual and sometimes nieve questions.

I warned y'all when I started that I would be asking some stupid questions, sometimes more than once. My memory ain't what it used to be. There's so many opinions on things that I sometimes have to try to sort them out in my own mind, what little is left anyway.

As always, I really do appreciate the help, suggestions and advice from everybody, Thanks, Paul
 
Hey, Paul........you remind me of me when I first bought my 1987 K5. My issue was having no idea about TBI and the sensors that came with it.

I came on here and did a bunch of research and asked lots of questions. There are no stupid questions. We ask and get answers from all around. This is the best site to do that. You don't get treated like you're a little kid. You get respectable answers as well as some smart ass answers. But it's all in fun and a great way to know the other members on here. You have learned that by now. So keep asking questions. I have sometimers disease and I can't live without CK5 and it's members.

It's also a great place to unwind and read about other builds.
 
Keep in mind if you plan on "playing" with the fuel pressure you'll NEVER get more than about 12-13psi if you are using the factory pump.
 
Top Bottom