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Can a different type of fuel pump be used on a TBI system

... Then if I go any further the cam, heads, and reprogram the chip would be next. Didn't they make a reader that could do some of the computer adjustments on the spot and it saved the original settings? If so, that might be worth looking at.

Hi. there are some of different programs & setups out there that can run read values and then in turn 'burn' new ones into a new chip (memcal). I had at one time thought about creating a custom chip myself and then realized the commitment level was way more than I was willing to give - so I opted for a custom chip, matched against my new cam, from Harris Perf.

If this is of interest to you, take a look at these two sites. Good luck!

http://www.moates.net/
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/
 
Wheels,

Thank you, It makes me feel better to hear someone admit that there was someone in the same boat as me. It feels different to be here because when I got out of cars, I was one of the ones that was asked the questions. In hindsight, there are times that I remember, that I wish that I had worded the answer a little differently.

4x4,

I've gathered that's the way it's supposed to be, but if there's anything strange that can happen, guess what? I'm trying to economize as much as I can. I've been thinking about just buying one, since I posted that just to make sure what I'm being told is accurate. They aren't as expensive as I thought. I've never been one to loan tools, especially something like a testing tool/gauge unless I really knew you, and I still preferred that we use it under my tree even then.

I guess that I'm looking for an excuse to take the pump out of the tank if I even think there's a problem. I know that when you turn the key on that the pump comes on for a few seconds then shuts down. How much pressure can I expect when it's turned on along with everything else. This is with the system like it has been run so the fuel system will have fuel in it. I'm guessing that the voltage drops without the alternator turning any idea how much so I can tell if the pump is pulling more amperage than normal. I would cycle the pump a few times to let it free up just in case, then do the tests. This would be with just one standard size battery.

I've read something that confused me, nothing new, Huh. Is the pressure regulated by the throttle body it self and the excess fuel goes back to the tank via the return line or does the pump constantly cycle on and off as necessary to maintain pressure? Constantly cycling the pump on/off doesn't seem like it would be good for the pump over the long haul.

Thanks, Paul
 
Thanks Blue,

Your message was posted in the 45 minutes that it took me to type (?) my previous entry.

I do believe that you gave me my answer. I was thinking that it was turn a knob down for econemy (sp. saving money) or turn it up for pulling/acceleration and it would save the original settings in memory, possibly more than one. It may have been changing timing more than anything else. I don't know anything about a computer etc. so I think I'll do the same.

Thanks, Paul
 
Sadly, the lack of information as to WHY the pump is in the tank in the first place is being ignored.......

1. It was decided that the average owner would be indifferent as to the placement of the fuel pump because fuel injection was new and a quantum change in design would be acceptable across the board anyway.
2. It's unwise to put a pump outside of the tank since flow needed to be constant unlike the suck-and-spit mechanical pump run off a cam lobe. The fuel pump was thereby cooled and lubricated, and any leaks that might happen would be self contained (the biggest reason - insurance and insurability, ya know?)
3. Most people drive until the tank is empty. This kills the pump - literally - for lack of cooling and lubrication. These people usually have multiple fuel pump failures and swear they hate any of the new technology.
4. When fuel is placed under a vacuum, eg: sucking it through what really is a long soda straw from the tank - it boils at a much lower thermal value. "Vapor lock" is what it was called prior to FI systems. However, "pushing the fuel" from the pump at the source of the liquid, ensures that the boiling point of fuel is raised significantly. The "vapor lock" syndrome does not typically exist any more. Hooray for technology.

FWIW.... I have 435,650+ miles on my 2000 Astro and never replaced an in tank pump yet. Of course, the rule is to never allow the tank to get below 1/4 full.

I have a 1989 Isuzu Amigo with just over 500,000 miles and guess what? I have never changed the in tank pump there either. The "1/4 full tank at all times" as a minimum rule applies here.

I also have a 1989 K5 with the original in tank pump, and the same rule applies to it - never let the tank get below 1/4 full.

Old Wive's Tale Debunking time: "You will get all sorts of dirt and junk off the bottom of the tank if you run it to empty".........Corrected knowledge: "You ALWAYS draw fuel from the bottom of the tank". The pump inlet does NOT follow the fuel level as it rises or falls. Forget about that old adage.

Another Aesopian-Fable is that you get water and dirt and other junk from gas station tanks. Modern station tanks don't allow contaminants to be delevered to the customer. Period.

Lawsuits and the EPA just keep it from happening anymore. Your state bureau of weights and measures also inspect for EPA failures, volume discrepancies and contaminants in the fuel as metered.

If you live in or regularly fuel up in Pottsylvania, Mexico or distilled your own fuel, then your results may vary.​

On FI vehicles, the pump and it's intake is in a little enclosure that keeps fuel surge - from cornering and other G-forces - from starving the pump. Air in a FI system is a problem if one places the fuel suction outside of that small anti-surge container in the tank or it doesn't have one in the first place.

Insurance companies LIKE the pump to be inside the tank, and it's not just to cause you grief. It's there to keep the fuel from squirting all over the undercarriage and immolation the vehicle and the passemgers.

That keeps the negative cash flow down at the insurance companies and leaves the fire department to get kittens out of trees instead of running all over town putting out burning vehicles, and identifying and bagging the crispy critters inside them.​

In some juresdictions, if there is an incident with death or property loss, and someone has modified their vehicle to fit some personal, arcane reasoning that made the vehicle unsafe and was at least part of the mitigating reason why death or property loss occurred - then the owner can be held fully liable for all damages. HIS insurance underwriting company will leave him without insurance representation. In other words: without insurance coverage.

An otherwise smart person would realize that moving a fuel pump outside the tank is dangerous, illogical, possibly immoral and it ain't penguin.




.
 
Thanks Blue,

Your message was posted in the 45 minutes that it took me to type (?) my previous entry.

I do believe that you gave me my answer. I was thinking that it was turn a knob down for econemy (sp. saving money) or turn it up for pulling/acceleration and it would save the original settings in memory, possibly more than one. It may have been changing timing more than anything else. I don't know anything about a computer etc. so I think I'll do the same.

Thanks, Paul

Yeah, I understand what you are aiming for - but unfortunately the OBD-1 ECMs in our trucks don't lend to that on-the-fly type of changes. Take it easy!
 
Thanks Joe,

I can see what you're talking about with the modification of the pump. I also understand what you're talking about with the trash in the tank. The one thing that I say is not to get gas while or right after they do a gas drop. The pick ups for the gas tanks don't go all the way to the bottom of the tank. Some stations will add water to the tank so that it goes under the gas and they don't have 500 to 1000 gallons between the three tanks that they can't use. I've had to pump the water out of the tanks and put it back a week or more later. That's when people usually get water in their gas because the water and gas have been mixed up by filling the tank. It was SOP to stick the tanks to see how much was in the tanks and periodically put a paste on the stick to show how much (deep) water is in the tank. I guess it's still done that way. I still see the 1" square sticks at gas stations from time to time.

Thanks again Blue,

I thought that I remembered something about it, so it must have been for OBD-2 and/or diesels.

Paul
 
Paul - I'm not too sure about South Carolina, but I've been associated with California, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and now Montana tanks and they pretty much all are new via a Federal Super Fund that made the station owners change all their tanks for new.

I would figure that by now, all US gas stations would be in compliance with the EPA. There was a lot of hate and discontent in the days of the changeover, but it's all good now.

The nicest part is that if there IS water somehow admitted in the system, it has a way to remove it instantly.

The biggest problem was having the fill necks under street level and that allowed water (rain) to enter the fill area and if the cap was loose - well - that can't happen any more with the vacuum that's applied to the tank. Like your gas cap: if you leave it off or loose, you'll pop a very noisy alarm board and in SoCal, also one that's outside for all the world to hear.

The problem was solved by raising the station filler necks and making them more secure to any intrusions with a click-cap that isn't like the old screw-on/off caps of the '20s.

Vapors escaping from underground tanks are also a thing of the past - and that's a two way win/win. The station actually gets ALL the gas to sell and the air is kept clean from evaporative smog-producing vapors. Any failure of that system sets off all sorts of alarms - which by-the-way --- are tested on a weekly basis by the owner.operator.

I remember that paste that we smeared on the stick - and those days were not the 'good old day' - they were 'the bad old days' instead.

I inspected and signed-off on quite a few of the SoCal underground tank removals and replacements during those changeover days.
 
Joe, I'll get back with you tomorrow, I'd forgotten about the mandate years ago to replace all metal tanks. We are a little different on this coast, but we don't have the situations and conditions that the west coast does.

Later, Paul
 
Good morning,

Sorry to run off in a lurch Joe but it was a rough night. You are reminding me of a lot of things. I had forgotten the vent pipe. I worked for an independent Exxon dealer that to say tight would be just silly. Once he mis-figured the gallonage needed to top our three tanks. We had a gasoline fountain that you wouldn't believe. When they designed (shoehorned) this station in their infinate wisdom, they had put the tank inlets about 15 feet from the base of the vents and of course the truck was right at the inlets due to lack of space. The caps on top of the truck were open and there had an extreme amount of fumes in the tanker. It worked out, but it could have been nationwide news.

Now, there are lots of delapidated old family gas stations all down through the country. Most were put out of business because they couldn't afford to get the old steel tanks up, let alone put the new fiberglass tanks down. With our high water table as compared to 90+% of the country, it really was necessary.

We have at least 3 Super Fund Sites within 20 miles and I'm thinking there's at east 1 more. Just so happens that I've been in the 3 that I'm sure of when I was working.

Joe, Thank You for the thoughts and info. I'm going to stop because I know that I'm off topic, thanks again everybody, Paul
 
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