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Cold starting a balky diesel...

diesel4me

diesel4me

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After cranking my truck yesterday morning long enough to drain the batteries,and "almost" starting,I had to give up,and put the charger on them,and I used my former pressure washer turned into a portable 12V battery booster to jump the truck long enough to finally get it to start..

I checked the glow plugs and all 7 out of the 8 I can remove test good,at least they light up a test light--and I assume all are getting power..but I suspect some may not be glowing hot enough ,it may be time for new ones..again..

It was about 22 degrees out in the morning--cold enough to plug in the block heater.but it used to start at 15 above with less grief without using it,and I feel it does not help much anyways,its too small to heat it up much..it often fails to start even after its been plugged in overnight..

I put 15W-40 in it at the last oil change 2 months ago,after it got quite cold here early in November,which seemed to help cranking speed--but its like its loading up with fuel,once it finally starts,it belches a lot of white smoke for a few minutes and runs like a gas engine that was over choked..

Been looking at different ways to get a balky diesel to start in the frigid temps--seen some rather scary methods ,ranging from burning a bale of hay under the oil pan,to using a weed torch down the intake..(I have one,but was reluctant to try that!)...saw another video where an old timer poured a shot or two of charcoal lighter fluid down the intake,and used a hunk of newspaper to light it--let it burn several minutes to heat up the intake,then cranked it over before the flames dies down..and it fired up within 4 revolutions!..

I might try that next time..truck is pissing me off enough lately to not care if I accidentally burn it to the ground..:angry1:
 
block heater should make the engine much warmer....especially plugged in overnight.

what glow plugs does it have in it, and how long do they stay on?
 
Well,right now it has 5 AC 60G's and 2 9G's I put in as a last resort,as thats all I had besides a set of Autolite 1110's I'd rather not use,had one fail a few years ago,dropped the tip in the combustion chamber..don't really trust that brand,the ones I used before died quickly too..

It has a manual push button to activate the glow plugs,I let them heat up for about 10 seconds,or however long the seat belt buzzer buzzes,that was what I used as a timer..

The block heater is a small (400 watt?) type that goes in one of the heater hoses--it works,I cant put my hand on it after its been on awhile,but it just doesn't seem to heat up the coolant or engine much at all--I have a brand new one nearly identical for it,I bought for $3 at the flea market,so when this one finally rots thru I'd have something to replace it with..
Engine still has the factory freeze plug heater in it--but the cord was cut off,and I'd rather not mess with it--last thing I need is that thing to start leaking..(like practically everything else that holds liquid on the truck :doah:)..
 
The freeze plug kind...that cord that is cut off just unplugs from the freeze plug part so you can replace just the cord.

A week ago my garbage truck wouldn't start when it was -35 C out. They ran a 5 foot piece of 4" exhaust pipe to under the center of the engine. the end of the pipe has a 90 degree elbow, pointing up at the engine. At the other end they have a Tiger torch. My truck had other issues and still didn't start but that method gets 95% of them going if they don't start on their own.
 
I can tell you my 750 watt block heater keeps the area immediately around the heater at 80-90*f but the radiator/hoses arent much above ambient temperature. The problem with the radiator hose heaters is they are heating the coolant around it, not the cylinders, the heat dies out by the time it reaches the engine in any real cold temperatures.

Its not the same, but if its cold soaked it takes me about 2min of cranking to get my cummins to "start" in -20F, another 30-60 seconds to get it to fire on all 6 cylinders. With the heater plugged in it fires right up like summer.

I did the math and it cost me $2 a day to keep my truck plugged in. That's 24 hours though, I'm only really home for 8-10 hours, so $30 a month to keep my truck toasty. With it plugged in it takes 10Min of 3 cylinder idle to get the temp gauge off the bottom.

My buddies 7.3IDI is a pain to start, that gets ATF down the intake or the ether bunny.
 
Are both of your batteries good?

My 6.2 truck has no problem cold starting down to about 0F. I manually burn the glow plugs (60Gs) for about 30sec and hold the go pedal to the floor, off it goes. This is with 5w-40 oil which I run all year and a gear reduction starter, no block heater. If your having trouble at 22F it really sounds like something is wrong, weak batteries, glow plugs, pump timing, advance solenoid, starter wiring, block grounds??

Both of my 6.5 trucks start on factory stuff easily down to 0F.
 
with all 60g plugs, 20 seconds on time at 20 degrees should start OK. Don't try that with the 9g plugs in there though.
 
The two batteries in it now are "good" as far as a load test goes,they are not a "matched pair" however--one is a group 78 Interstate of unknown vintage (that looks fairly new,and has a 6 year warranty sticker on it that never had the date punched out)...the other one is a red top Duralast group 74 ,that I put on the drivers side,figuring having the larger battery closer to the starter would be preferable..

They will spin it over like gangbusters for about 30 seconds in frigid weather,after I activate the glow plugs for as long as the seat belt buzzer goes off (about 10-15 seconds or so)--I also leave them activated while cranking it over..
The engine wants to fire,but seems like only a few cylinders are firing,you guys with diesels are probably familiar with the way they "almost" start--it'll crank briskly and go "thump-thump-thump" each time a cylinder fires,but it never quite fully fires up..

That's when when the bendix drive wants to slip because its cranking it over about as fast as the engine idles,and each time a cylinder fires the drive clutch over-rides and slips...then the starter starts slowing down and I know its time to give up before I kill the batteries completely..

I have the cold start advance hooked up to a toggle switch,the sensor in the head lost its plastic connector ,it was leaving it activated constantly too for quite some time,I was unaware of this until one night I came home from a short ride and saw flames under the hood!--the wires and the plastic guts on the sensor landed on the exhaust manifold and caught fire..was lucky I saw that,otherwise it would have burnt to the ground..

I'm not so sure the IP actually advances when I flip the switch--the fast idle solenoid works,but I do not really hear any difference in the "diesel rattle" sound with it activated..the pump's timing marks are aligned perfectly,and I've never tried moving the timing..to me it sounds like it is advanced ,compared to the amount of rattle this engine has,compared to my Suburban's 6.2..(that truck starts even harder ,but most likely needs a few more new glow plugs,I only replaced 5 of them)..

I wont be surprised if the two 9G's I had in it are either dead or swelled up by now--I know its not good to "mix" different glow plugs,but having one that works is better than a dead one..when I tested them with a test lamp it still lights up though.so they must be doing something..one cylinder has a swelled plug that'll never come out,so its had only 7 all the time I owned it--it always started with 7 before OK..

I was tempted to try 5W-40 oil,but didn't want to risk using synthetic in it ,plus the cost,seeing the oil pan leaks a bit ,thinner oil would likely leak more,and I rather doubt 15W-40 is too thick,we rarely get much colder than 15 above here and if we do its usually not for very long..engine sounds loose enough to be better off with 15W-40 too!..

I suspect it may just be getting low on compression and only a few cylinders still have the 400+ psi required to fire it off well when cold..
I don't have a compression tester for diesel,so I can only guess what it actually has..but once its running and warmed up,it runs on all 8 and seems strong enough..

Maybe if I try using a hair drier down the intake it might help--or the weed torch...the heater hose tank heater doesn't do squat,like Tree Farm said,by the time the coolant gets to the engine its stone cold again--its just a waste of electricity IMO--..I'm not going to mess with that freeze plug heater because it looks crusty enough to leak if I even touch it..

This truck needs to be taken completely apart come this spring,and taken off the road..I will probably yank the 6.2 and put a small block back in it,if I decide its even WORTH doing all the labor and expense of all the new parts it'll need..the laundry list is getting mighty long..

It needs :
Inner Fenders
Front Fenders
Frame patching and paint
Both spring hangers on the drivers side rear spring
New fuel tank & sending unit
Bed is pretty wasted--I have a flatbed I can put on it..

If I decided to keep the 6.2 in it,that'll need :
New glow plugs
Oil pan replaced (I have 2 good used ones)
Injector lines should be replaced --I have 2 sets of spares
Injector pump "might" be OK--or not ?
Passenger side exhaust manifold replaced (I have a good used one)
Probably need another starter too,after the whipping the existing one has had lately..(that'll be #4)..the flexplate has seen better days too..:(

That's just the short list--it could well pop a head gasket or the water pump,or snap the crank a day after all that got fixed too..
I'd rather swap a gas engine in it than do either of those repairs..

My Suburban or van will probably end up being put on the road this spring,if I dont find something better for cheap money to get around in--,the 6.2 in the Suburban will be ok for warm weather driving--but I'm done dealing with owning a truck I cant even get to start reliably in winter,its a poor choice for a plow truck..

Yesterday it got up to 45 * and when I went to start it to plow 3" off my driveway,it spun over so fast I was amazed,it actually fired right off --it did blow some blue-white smoke for awhile,but the difference between 45* and 20* is night and day..I had the battery charger on it overnight though too,and I've learned to not take it off until it is running--the glow plugs seem to heat up better with the charger still connected..
 
Replace the cord to the freeze plug block heater. As was mentioned before, it just plugs in. I had to replace this on my m1009 when it wouldnt start in cold weather. These block heaters work much better than the one at the hose like you have been using. It's very easy to replace this cord. 5 minute job.

On the glow plugs, yoy said you removed to test. Did you mean to say you disconnected the wire to test? Cause you are supposed to test them while they are still in the block.

If the cord replacement doesnt solve your problem, I would replace all the glow plugs with a matched set of 60gs. This way you could warm them for longer than 10 seconds. Throttle to the floor, good glow plugs, and a warmed engine block, you should be able to start at 0 degrees
 
I can just put a new plug on the cord ,on the freeze plug heater,it still has about 20" of the cord left on it..the salvage yard must have snipped it off,this engine wasn't original to the truck,supposedly it was one with only 80K on it I was told..but previous owners tend to lie too..:surepal:..

I had thoughts about putting the other new tank style heater in the other heater hose--maybe with two together would get it a lot warmer..?..or just suck twice as much electricity..:thinking:..

I'd rather not touch that freeze plug heater--not sure if it even ever worked period,and its crusty as the Titanic..messing with it will likely just cause further grief..

I only unplugged the glow plugs and put a 12V test light from the battery + to the tab on the glow plug,I didn't remove them from the heads...they all lit up the lamp OK,but that doesn't mean they might not be getting hot or hot enough..

I know I should just get 8 new 60G's but funds are too low right now,and only 7 of them will be able to be installed,that stuck GP on the front cylinder on the passenger side,I've tried every method to get it out except removing the injector,which will be a disaster,the fuel lines are crispy and are likely to twist up or snap if I attempt to unscrew them..but as I stated earlier,it always fired off OK with only 7 glow plugs in the past and no block heater,even on some days near zero degrees..

I could put in the 7 used Autolite 1110's I have,but I'd be leery of them failing using a manual push button,and the fact I already had one come apart while it was running before!..the 60G's are all I trust using a manual push button..

This truck isn't going to be driven on the street very far,or fast,until I get the spring hanger & frame dilema repaired,and a new fuel tank,and that will probably not be until spring..--it only has to get me about 5 miles each way to go get food and pay bills till then,and plow my driveway,and only if I don't end up swapping the plates to one of my other hulks and deal with all their issues..or buy something else to beat around in for the time being..if my health continues to suck,I may just get rid of it ,and all my other vehicles,I'm losing the ability to work on anything..
I just want the dam thing to start when I need it to plow..the fact it'll be sitting a lot more now wont help things any either..
 
Physically get under there and inspect the glow plug cord though. Mine was broken about 8 inches from the freeze plug part. The plug end looked perfectly fine
 
My 6.2 experience is from the 80's, but I do remember a shorted glow plug. You can have 7 brand new ones and they never get hot when all the current is in the shorted one (and that one is barely hotter than your wiring). Having 2 trucks hooked to the 2 batteries isn't enough to make it fire at -20F - you can crank all night. Some of the guides have you look for an open circuit, but 1 that is way lower on resistance than the others means at least 7 cold cylinders.

My apologies if everybody now has updated glow plugs that never fail this way.
 
Measuring resistance on glow plugs is a useless test, bad ones will consistently measure within good spec yet don't heat up.

Those 9G's mixed in with the 60G's and the known dead one, killed them. So there's at least 3 dead glowplugs guaranteed. Those dead glowplugs are robbing volts/amps from the other plugs as well which is preventing or delaying them from getting to temp.

The extra smoking for awhile after startup and rough running is because at least 3 cylinders are not even attempting to fire yet.

If the glowplug system is working the 6.2/6.5 is capable of starting below 0F without being plugged in. Block heater is much better to use but the engine is capable.

Air leaks in the fuel system aint helping.
 
No fuel/air leaks in the fuel system--unless the new leak in the bottom of the fuel tank lets air in somehow..
I've gone over all the fuel hoses and they all look good,no leaks,and I double clamped them -but I haven't yet found suitable clear hose to put on the IP return line to watch for bubbles..

The mechanical fuel pump's condition is unknown,far as I know it is working ok,no leaks there,and the oil isn't getting diluted by fuel--it also has a 12V electric pump right next to the fuel tank I added also,I do not think fuel delivery is an issue,its the cylinders not getting hot enough to fire it off in my opinion..

The "mixture" of different glow plugs is likely causing this as noted above..the dead one that wont come out was left unplugged since I've owned the truck..so that one shouldn't be affecting the rest of them..

I also haven't checked each individual glow plug power wire to make sure that all are delivering 12V to each plug..seeing the wiring harness is one year shy of its 40th birthday,I suppose it is possible one or more might not be getting full (or any) voltage and amps..that'll be another check I'll have to do..

It's 13 degrees out right now,dipped down to single digits last night--so I am not very hopeful about it starting if I needed to go anywhere today...:mad1:..not exactly eager to go out and spend the day leaning under the hood "diagnosing" either..:surepal:
 
I know modern Cummins use a heated glow grid in the intake.... anyway one of these could be installed in the intake air of a 6.2 to heat the air charge ??

just thinking out loud....
 
I remember some GM cars used to have a special carb base gasket that had a screen that was electrically heated back in the 80's,to aid in proper fuel atomization after a cold start...they probably didn't glow red hot--or work for very long either..

Half the battle in starting a diesel with glow plugs or a grid heater,is they drain the batteries a lot before you even turn the key to crank it over..after watching some videos with guys using a hair dryer or heat gun to heat the intake and incoming air,and their engines fire right up ,I may have to try that..

Or invent a flame thrower like a Perkins diesel has!..:weld:
HOW THE FLAME HEATER WORKS ON A PERKINS DIESEL - YouTube
 
wasted wages said:
I know modern Cummins use a heated glow grid in the intake.... anyway one of these could be installed in the intake air of a 6.2 to heat the air charge ??

just thinking out loud....
Click to expand...

The grid heaters are not as efficient as glow plugs. With direct injection diesels (most of what's out there) it works well enough but on indirect injection diesels glow plugs are much more of a necessity.

Cost is about $60 for a new set of 60g glow plugs, there's a specialized tool for stubborn glow plugs that works without pulling the injector, or cranking the engine over with the glowplug unthreaded to launch it out. Link to the tool here http://leroydiesel.com/products/leroys-glow-plug-removal-tool/
 
red EOD said:
there's a specialized tool for stubborn glow plugs that works without pulling the injector, or cranking the engine over with the glowplug unthreaded to launch it out. Link to the tool here http://leroydiesel.com/products/leroys-glow-plug-removal-tool/
Click to expand...

It's kinda neat, but it wouldn't have helped me. Mine had the entire ceramic portion break free, so I just had a metal nub. After pulling the injector I found the center of the rod had swelled to about 3 times the normal diameter. Would have been interesting breaking enough bits off of the lump to get it out the small hole. Probably would have broken the tip off again.
 
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