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D44 crossover problems *FYI**PIC*

Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

That kit is also listed on a page with a bunch of D60 info and says nothing about D44 stuff. He also stated in another thread D44 stuff was in the works but not available yet. I hope he can get ahold of something soon but I think I am going to go with the Super 9 bolts if I can get them in the right size.
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

I picked up my replacement bolts yesterday for my steering arm. They are F911 brand. They are rated 20% stronger then Grade 8. 190,000 Ksi average with 180,00 Ksi min.

Here is the breakdown as listed by Stephen at ORD

Stressproof (a trademarked steel) = 115Ksi tensile strength
Grade 5 bolts = 120Ksi tensile
Grade 8 bolts = 150Ksi tensile
Grade 9 isn't graded by anybody but the manufacturer so the term really means nothing but typically the higher strength bolts run roughly 180ksi.

The StressProof studs are the ones I broke in only 2 runs.

I picked my bolts up locally but they are really hard to find. Even the place I got them from has stopped carrying them. They will order them but only by the box (25).

My local supplier has 6 left in stock. They are 4" long, 9/16" fine thread.

If you run crossover steering with steering arm spacers these are the correct bolts. PM me if you are interested in me picking them up for you. The price I got mine for was wrong (lucky me) so I saved a little but the price is $3.17 per bolt. I picked more up today for MuddyTazz.

Harley
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

i think we have bolts like that at work, what does the head on yours say, i remember a 911 being on the top. freebies for me maybe /forums/images/graemlins/woot.gif
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

[ QUOTE ]
I have drilled/tapped 4 knuckles for different ck5 members for the 5/8" studs


[/ QUOTE ]
Would it be possible for you to post/pm/e-mail a DXF or actual size pattern for the passenger side knuckle so I can do my own? I have a friend who will use laser guided torches to cut arms for me. I would like to drill my own stuff too to save some cash.

How do you guys feel about using T-1 in the 1" variety for steering arms?
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

[ QUOTE ]
With AN type hardware the first # is 1/16". An AN9 bolt would be 9/16" (AN8 would be 8/16" = 1/2"). The next # is the length. AN bolts are sold by "grip" length - the length of the un-threaded shank of the bolt. A bolt about 4" long would be a -36 or -37 (3-29/32 and 4-1/32 respectivaly)...

So the bolt you would want in the regular AN3 - AN20 would be:
AN9-36

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct-a-mundo.

[ QUOTE ]
If you wanted something a bit stronger (that one above is about as strong as grade 8) you would be looking for something like NAS 624. They are 12-point heads and are about 108,000psi in shear (180,000psi tension). I am sure there are others out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct as well. But the NAS624-series is more of a "tension" bolt than a "shear" bolt. The NAS653-series that I recommended earlier is designed as a "shear" bolt; it's intended app is in assemblies that see high shear loads at the fastening point. The 108K shear on the 624-series that Triaged quoted (BTW, where'd you find that number??) may not stay constant across different lots of bolts, whereas the 653-series will ALWAYS hold AT LEAST 95K shear. The 624-series will work there, and should hold up well; however the 653-series is tailor-made for that situation. The 653 is more expensive since it's titanium, but it's also more corrosion-resistant.
If you choose to go with the NAS-series bolts, I guess it boils down to what you can afford and can get a hold of.
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

[ QUOTE ]

Correct as well. But the NAS624-series is more of a "tension" bolt than a "shear" bolt. The NAS653-series that I recommended earlier is designed as a "shear" bolt; it's intended app is in assemblies that see high shear loads at the fastening point. The 108K shear on the 624-series that Triaged quoted (BTW, where'd you find that number??) may not stay constant across different lots of bolts, whereas the 653-series will ALWAYS hold AT LEAST 95K shear. The 624-series will work there, and should hold up well; however the 653-series is tailor-made for that situation. The 653 is more expensive since it's titanium, but it's also more corrosion-resistant.
If you choose to go with the NAS-series bolts, I guess it boils down to what you can afford and can get a hold of.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got that info from Carroll Smith's "Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook".

With aircraft hardward when they say "shear bolt" what I have always taken that to mean is "double shear". They have reduced head heights and can't be (and don't have to be) torqued down as tight as a tension bolt. It is my understanding that a tension bolt is what you would want to use in a "single shear" application. Does that make any sence?

Edit:
I am also skeared about a Titanum bolt seazing in the knuckle...Ti and steel don't play well together.
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

What you said:
[ QUOTE ]
I am also skeared about a Titanum bolt seazing in the knuckle...Ti and steel don't play well together.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I said earlier:
[ QUOTE ]
A thin coat of anti-seize compound should be used as well, to minimize the chances of dissimilar-metal corrosion (BAD THING in a steering system...)


[/ QUOTE ]
Gotcha covered... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

As far as the "double shear" vs. "single shear" thing... You're probably right. I think you've got the formal-education-advantage over me. /forums/images/graemlins/whistling.gif
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

Can someone please explain the difference between double shear and single shear?
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

A single shear is like the stock rear upper shock mount. There is the main piece on one side and the accessory piece on the other. A double shear is like the stock front upper (or all of the stock lower) shock mounts. There are two main plates with the accessory piece in between. It is thought of like this. A single shear connection only has to break in one place to truly shear while a double shear needs to break in two places.

hope that helps
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

[ QUOTE ]
What you said:
[ QUOTE ]
I am also skeared about a Titanum bolt seazing in the knuckle...Ti and steel don't play well together.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I said earlier:
[ QUOTE ]
A thin coat of anti-seize compound should be used as well, to minimize the chances of dissimilar-metal corrosion (BAD THING in a steering system...)


[/ QUOTE ]
Gotcha covered... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

I saw the comment about the anti-seize...It still scares me (I'm a wuss when it comes to stuff like this!!)

[ QUOTE ]
As far as the "double shear" vs. "single shear" thing... You're probably right. I think you've got the formal-education-advantage over me.

[/ QUOTE ]

We don't go over anything like that in school /forums/images/graemlins/dunno.gif...I just read way too much /forums/images/graemlins/waytogo.gif I have a stack of books about 3ft thick all on various automotive engineering/fabrication/building /forums/images/graemlins/thinking.gif...which is one of the reasons my truck gets so little work done on it /forums/images/graemlins/whistling.gif
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

Ya, ECE classes are just for the paper part of a BSE. They really haven't taught me on the actual how to yet. It is those who can think, apply, and create, who become great builders, not always those with the 4.0 gpa.
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

[ QUOTE ]
A single shear is like the stock rear upper shock mount. There is the main piece on one side and the accessory piece on the other. A double shear is like the stock front upper (or all of the stock lower) shock mounts. There are two main plates with the accessory piece in between. It is thought of like this. A single shear connection only has to break in one place to truly shear while a double shear needs to break in two places.

hope that helps

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I thought.

Thank you.
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

Once again, I don't think the shear strength is the big deal here, it's the clamp load of the connection that holds it together. You should have a clamp load of about 18,000 pounds or more from each fastener holding the two machined surfaces together. This creates a lot of friction force and that's what holds it together.

The "brittle" nature of stronger fasteners is not always that big a deal, especially since metallurgy is always advancing and TOUGHNESS is what everyone is after. But regardless, (to use some numbers from a chart from one of our suppliers) if you tighten a grade 5 bolt up to 75% of it's proof strength (just under the yield point), you get a 13K# clamp load. The same situation with grade 8 gives you 18K# clamp load. Now take a fastener that's rated at 180-190K psi tensile strength compared to a grade 8 at 150K psi and you get even more clamp load out of it. Where "brittle" comes into this is the relationship of yield strength and ultimate tensile strength. When they get close together, we consider the bolt "brittle". For example a grade 5 bolt has a yield point of 92ksi and a yield of 120ksi so yield is 77% of the tensile. Grade 8 with yield of 130ksi and tensile of 150ksi gives a percentage of 87%. Stressproof has 100ksi and 115ksi so it's percentage is also about 87%. But is this "brittle"? Only if you have a fastener with poor thread roots, bad fillet radii or other messed up design features. Just because a low grade fastener bends farther before it breaks doesn't mean it's better. Weaker is weaker and after a fastener yields, it's ruined. Consider that a hard hit on a fastener that breaks a grade 5 equivalent stud with 115ksi ultimate strength won't even get close to the yield point of a grade 8 or stronger part.

There is a LOT to all of this especially when you start looking at all the private manufactures building higher strength fasteners and calling them whatever they want. There are no SAE specs over grade 8 so anything you want to use that's stronger, you have to check out the specs for yourself. There is nothing wrong with the higher (than grade 8) strength fasteners, there are lots of reputable companies building them and lots of demanding applications using them. If you want to know what they have, ask them what the yield and tensile strength are and you'll have the most pertinent infomation.
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

Yeah I was just getting off topic for a minute with my question.

Is it really a good idea for you to give engineering advice on the internet since you're actually an engineer?
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

I don't think it's a big deal, I'm not getting paid for it. In fact, I'm actually paying to do this. Wait a minute here...
insert "hammer on nuts" smiley
This must be fun?
 
Re: D44 crossover problems *FYI*

I know, just in the past I've seen people who were actually engineers be real careful when giving advice, something about liability.

That's why I was kinda shocked to see you comment at all.

Not that what you're saying isn't about as basic as it gets, but the right knowledge in the hands of stupid people can sometimes breed disaster.
 

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