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Deep Cycle for starting

ryoken said:
Not to mention, EVERY single boat runs deep cycle (or similar cell tech) and many have a much harder starting life than any car...
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On smaller boats this is usually true. Larger boats will usually run a deep cycle "house" battery and a separate "cranking" battery for starting, which is a higher output similar to standard car batteries. Deep cycle batteries don't make good cranking batteries for large diesels. My brother, who works for a boat builder and is a marine systems engineer, insists that it shortens the life of the deep cycle batteries if you use them regularly for cranking, however; he's also talking about 500Hp Yanmar, twin turbo diesels:)

We've occasionally had to start my father's small 4cyl diesel on the deep cycle 4D batteries because the cranking battery was dead. The engine would start, but it would crank much slower.

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I was told by a guy who made optima batteries for interstate when they bought the name. That red blue and yellow tops are the same battery just tested differntly to make the numbers fall where they wanted them. This isnt gosple but actualy makes sence in a way. I have run all 3 and never noticed any differnce in the 3 as starting batteries. Ill let ya in on a little secret. Optimas are a BITCH to recharge if you drain them dead. BUT I have rescued several Optima batteries from the junk yard that where suposedly bad. All I did was put them on a 1 amp trickle charge for about 3 days, once I used the solar charger on a camper I had. I ran that battery in a 72 chevy for about 4 years and it was a junkyard battery. With my experiance I am SOLD on optimas they never let me down. I also have run a blue and a yellow together on my very first 6.2 blazer, and aside from glow plugs burning out, that truck started every time.

By the way I have about 7 optimas, in my rigs, all red tops.

Balzer
 
Wow I went and looked at battery cable today granted it was at West Marine but **** man they wanted $14 a foot for 1/0:eek1: . I need to determine how much I need but that is crazy insane for cable, does anyone know any good sources for cable? I have a few welding supply houses around me and not many places carry 1/0 power cable other than welders and marine places.

Also should my winch be wired directly to a battery or can I run it to the selector swith and ground to the common system ground?

Dik
 
loafer said:
On smaller boats this is usually true. Larger boats will usually run a deep cycle "house" battery and a separate "cranking" battery for starting, which is a higher output similar to standard car batteries. Deep cycle batteries don't make good cranking batteries for large diesels. My brother, who works for a boat builder and is a marine systems engineer, insists that it shortens the life of the deep cycle batteries if you use them regularly for cranking, however; he's also talking about 500Hp Yanmar, twin turbo diesels:)

We've occasionally had to start my father's small 4cyl diesel on the deep cycle 4D batteries because the cranking battery was dead. The engine would start, but it would crank much slower.

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Not to be a smarta$$, but I live that chit daily.. large boats most certainly run deep cycle as starting batteries.. As a matter of fact, I would bet the farm you'd have a hard time finding a "starting" battery in 8D in a diesel boat.. And I only haul out and store a couple hundred 8D's a year... :doah: And EVERY single one is a deep cycle... the boats I'm talking about are in the 36' to 90' range...

Big diesels generally run series/parellel solenoids to get 24 volts to the starters from 4 8D's.. Thats how they get cranking juice...

Actually a fair amount of the big boats I work on run 36 volt house systems... But even the 12 volters come with the same battery as they get for cranking...

And heck Yackmars crank SUPER easy (pieces of chit btw... everyone was high on em when they came out.. Now they have big recalls... I just yanked one last week that threw a rod thru the block.) Try cranking a set of 1200 horse Mann's or an older pair of 1292 Detroits in the winter..... :wink1:

The thing people here are forgetting is ALOT of the batteries on the market are "dual purpose" (Optima yellow tops for one).. cell tech inbetween the 2 true styles of cell structure...
 
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ryoken said:
The thing people here are forgetting is ALOT of the batteries on the market are "dual purpose" (Optima yellow tops for one).. cell tech inbetween the 2 true styles of cell structure...
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I am interested in what you mean by this. simply for personal knowledge. thanks in advance. :bow: I always try to pay close attention to what you post when it comes to electrical.

I have a yellow top in my woods truck. it has been in there for 8-9 years and never died. did daily driving duty for the first 2 years and now the truck is started maybe twice a month.
 
well, the yellows are dual.. they are not "true" deep cycle in their cell design.. true deep cycle being closer to solid lead plates, whereas starting batteries have more surface area via honeycombing and other design styles.. Optimas being spiral...

basically what that does is give the battery more cca, but at the cost of reserve and duty cycle... duty cycle being a critical inherent strength of a deep cycle (much greater reserve capacity being the other)... a good deep cycle will have a cycle life of maybe, 500, 600.. that means it can be fully discharged that many times in an expected life.. whereas "cranking" batteries, you may get 5 or 6 or something if your lucky.. many times they are never the same again after a full drain.. thats not to say you may luck out and get a 20 cycle life out of one with no ill effects, but the comparison between the 2 is rediculous in that regards...

dual purpose is kinda a cheat for the battery companies.. they can claim deep cycle without giving up the cca.. but the cell design and actual deep cycle performance varies greatly on what they do design wise... actually many of the batteries out that claim to be deep cycle, not even claiming dual purpose, are just that, more of a dual purpose... very few companies producing true deep cycle stuff these days due to the cost of that style cell...

that help? or confuse the issue more?

btw, thanks for the props... Lets just say I have a metric buttload of experience.. So pissed they postponed my ABYC electrical cerification class next week, too busy, can't be spared.. but I'm hoping to go later in the fall..

I know sometimes I can be difficult, in both attitude and getting my point across, but try to forgive me, I'm a bruised and bloody grunt, not a diplomat or english teacher.. :o
 
http://www.smithae.com/surepower.html

Personally I feel the best way to use dual batteries in a typical trail rig setup (winching) is the way Surepower (above) provides for. The batteries are always separate. Winching will never affect the starting battery, and the batteries will NEVER affect each other extending the lives of both.

Should you need to boost yourself you can still do so.
 
I'm running a single Odyssey battery with a warn 16.5ti winch. This battery is massive yes and cost me a pretty penny, but when I figured out the total cost with running duals, this was was much cheaper, took up less space, and was much cleaner of a setup.

So far, this thing has been flawless in its performance, powering the winch perfectly and never even hesitating in startup. Plus, it's a drycell like the optimas and others which means I can mount it wherever and however and don't have to worry about leakage. What is the negative to me or anyone going this route?
 
I have decided that for right now it will have to wait until I get back from Norfolk. I am gonna use my car battery to move it off of the street and park it in the driveway. My wife will park on the street until I get home.

When I do get back I am going to build 2 boxes out of 12ga. and make hinged lids with hasps so I can lock them. They will be mounted like Rene's and just high enough to give room for the hinges, lid lip and hasp.

Batteries will be Orbital Marine Deep Cycle (they only make 1 in the orbital series). I will run 1/0 cable through out and I think I am going to go with Audio power cable, it is flexible like welding cable, high strand count and is tinned like marine cable with out the cost.

As for the wiring plan it will be almost identical to the schematic that Mini_mull has designed. The selector switch will be a marine grade 350A 1, both, 2, off switch and I will run an ACR rather than an isolator. I will also wire a remote starter solenoid while I am at it.

I made the decision to wait mainly because I want to do it right and not hack it together as it cost more money in the long run when you do things that way.

Thanks for the help and advice so keep it coming I have an extra month to get things together and ready to go.

Dik
 
fireplug said:
http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#Starting,%20Marine,%20and%20Deep-Cycle%20Batteries
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That article confirms everything I've said in this thread..

I know you and I have debated batteries before... :wink1:

I just don't know how to explain any better why an ACR/marine switch setup is FAR superior to an isolator setup... Now I know how the guy who said the world was round felt... :doah:

An ACR/switch setup does everything an isolator setup does, better and is WAY more flexible in it's uses and capabilities.. isolates either bank, built-in parallel switch in 2 different ways, charges both batteries without current loss, and will not disable a truck if there is a failure..
 
ryoken said:
That article confirms everything I've said in this thread..

I know you and I have debated batteries before... :wink1:

I just don't know how to explain any better why an ACR/marine switch setup is FAR superior to an isolator setup... Now I know how the guy who said the world was round felt... :doah:

An ACR/switch setup does everything an isolator setup does, better and is WAY more flexible in it's uses and capabilities.. isolates either bank, built-in parallel switch in 2 different ways, charges both batteries without current loss, and will not disable a truck if there is a failure..
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Yep! My post was meant to be a response to NOT using ANYTHING to separate the batteries. And like last time, you and I are more in agreement than you realize! :D

EDIT do you have a link to an ACR that you'd recommend?
 
Ordered the cable. I found 1/0 audio power cable on egay for less than $2 a foot with shipping to my house. It might have been "hot" as it was less than half what it goes for in the stereo shops. It is OFC tinned and 4074 strand. Insulation rated to 600V @105C and resistant to oil and gasoline. From everything I could find it is almost identical to welding cable other than the strand count and the copper has been tinned like marine cable.

An added bonus it comes in colors so to avoid confusion with the wiring I got clear and will use the adhesive shrink wrap on the connectors to denote + and - lines. That will be some bling for my rig:D .

Now I gotta get the batteries (just waiting on funds) and the switch. I wanna run a remote starter solenoid what is a good one to use? And I still need to get the metal and hardware to make my boxes and an ACR (man those things are expensive:eek1: ). I am undecided where I want to mount them. Under the back seat or infront of the wheel wells.

Should I make a box for my battery switch in the engine compartment or do you think it will be fine just mounted on the firewall by the remote solenoid?

I run no inner fenders and will have very little fender at all left once I cut them again after the battery move.

Thanks

Dik
 
fireplug said:
Yep! My post was meant to be a response to NOT using ANYTHING to separate the batteries. And like last time, you and I are more in agreement than you realize! :D

EDIT do you have a link to an ACR that you'd recommend?
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Actually after relooking at that link, I see at the bottom of the page they also sell what they call a battery seperator.. Which appears to me to be their attempt at similar tech to the ACR... Nice to see other companies following Blue Seas lead... Tho I will say, just from appearance, the ACR looks to be more stout in its construction, etc.. That probably has to do with it being marine..

And yeah, we definitely hashed this one out pretty good last time... :wink1: As we've all stated, their are MANY ways to achieve the same results on the dual subject...

Funny, batteries where on my brain as I was eyeballing a pair of #27 AGM's today that looked like they needed a home in my truck as opposed to making our "yard" battery count go to 10... :wink1:
 
mini_mull said:
You could always run the switch in the cab.
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I am thinking how to do that as all of my wires are gonna be under the floor of the cab. I guess I could surface mount it and put a cover over the terminals on the back of it. That way the dial would be inside the truck and the terminals and all would be outside with the cables:thinking: .

Dik
 
sandawgk5 said:
Ordered the cable. I found 1/0 audio power cable on egay for less than $2 a foot with shipping to my house. It might have been "hot" as it was less than half what it goes for in the stereo shops. It is OFC tinned and 4074 strand. Insulation rated to 600V @105C and resistant to oil and gasoline. From everything I could find it is almost identical to welding cable other than the strand count and the copper has been tinned like marine cable.

An added bonus it comes in colors so to avoid confusion with the wiring I got clear and will use the adhesive shrink wrap on the connectors to denote + and - lines. That will be some bling for my rig:D .

Now I gotta get the batteries (just waiting on funds) and the switch. I wanna run a remote starter solenoid what is a good one to use? And I still need to get the metal and hardware to make my boxes and an ACR (man those things are expensive:eek1: ). I am undecided where I want to mount them. Under the back seat or infront of the wheel wells.

Should I make a box for my battery switch in the engine compartment or do you think it will be fine just mounted on the firewall by the remote solenoid?

I run no inner fenders and will have very little fender at all left once I cut them again after the battery move.

Thanks

Dik
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switch is fine mounted to any flat surface.. some 1/4-20 like 3" usually do the trick... keep in mind, it's alway nicest to run a remote slave and switch as close to batteries as possible... for a couple reasons...

solenoids, eh, huge variety there... get the biggest amp one you feel like spending on.. they'll range from auto Cole-Hersee stuff as cheap as $15, 20 at your local parts place (usually like 80, 90 amp) to stuff pushing $100 mark, waterproof, 400 amp, etc... the Blue Sea ones Mini Mull bought are VERY nice and tough...

oh, talk to me when ya want an ACR, I may be able to hook ya up with a decent deal... Got one for Matt and iirc, it was maybe $110, 120 something like that for me......
 
ryoken said:
switch is fine mounted to any flat surface.. some 1/4-20 like 3" usually do the trick... keep in mind, it's alway nicest to run a remote slave and switch as close to batteries as possible... for a couple reasons...

solenoids, eh, huge variety there... get the biggest amp one you feel like spending on.. they'll range from auto Cole-Hersee stuff as cheap as $15, 20 at your local parts place (usually like 80, 90 amp) to stuff pushing $100 mark, waterproof, 400 amp, etc... the Blue Sea ones Mini Mull bought are VERY nice and tough...

oh, talk to me when ya want an ACR, I may be able to hook ya up with a decent deal... Got one for Matt and iirc, it was maybe $110, 120 something like that for me......
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I was thinking I could flush mount the switch in the footwell for the rear seat. It will be close to both batteries and should be out of the way. This will also allow me to only run 1 + cable up to the engine compartment and 1 ground cable. I suppose I could also put the ACR down there also.

I guess I need to get all of my parts together then I can see how everything is gonna fit.

I will def get ahold of you for the ACR. I have been looking and the Blue Sea stuff seems to be the only thing anyone uses.

Dik
 
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