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Detonation

I would bet on the wrist pin letting go. A guy I know, just trashed his fresh 400 Ford cause of detonation. The builder tore the motor down and found all 8 pistons pitted, with #8 broke in half, so no warranty, just eat the 1600 bucks and turn the timing down on the next one.:(
 
a little reading from the book, "John Lingenfelter On Modifying Small-Block Chevy Engines"
If you look at the combustion chamber of any small block head, the chamber only accounts for a little more than half of the bore. The remaining portion of the chamber is flat. With a flat top piston, the distance between the top of the piston and the flat portion of the head is defined as the quench area. This distance varies depending on the deck height of the piston (positive above the deck or negative below the deck) and the head gasket thickness. A performance piston-to-head clearance is usually between .040 and .045 inch. This quench are is too small to support combustion, serving instead a more useful function. As the piston approaches TDC, this tight area tends to squirt or squish the air/fuel mixture in this area into the open combustion space. This violent action produces turbulence that acts like a very efficient blender. This blending action helps homogenize the air-fuel mixture and supports more efficient combustion.

Dyno testing has proven that improving the piston to head quench area will improve power even when the compression ratio remains the same. It is even possible to optimize the quench and decrease the compression without suffering detonation problems! This is because improving the homogenization of the mixture in the chamber reduces the tendency for lean areas in the chamber to promote detonation. The ideal combination is to run a .005-inch negative deck height along with a composition head gasket with a compressed thickness of .038 to produce a .043-inch piston to head clearance for a steel rod engine. Optimizing the quench will often reduce the required ignition lead, further reducing the possibility of detonation while also reducing unburned hydrocarbon exhaust emissions. Just for the record, if you are going through this same drill with a domed piston make sure you still retain a safe piston to dome clearance of at least .040 inch.

Domed pistons are the classic small block piston design. Chevrolet built thousands upon thousands of production engines with domed pistons back in the lost days of 103 octane pump gas. Domed pistons are usually reserved for race engines these days for a number for good reasons. Since it's possible to generate well over 11:1 compression with flat top pistons, it makes little sense to stuff a dome into a large combustion chamber to accomplish the same goal. Conventional wisdom also claims that domes merely get in the way of an efficient combustion process and lead to reduced power even with higher compression. This is especially evident with pistons that require a "fire slot" in the dome to give the spark plug sufficient area to create a flame front. Domed pistons also increase weight at the very top of the piston, which increases the g-forces on the piston. The best way to reduce weight is to opt for"hollow dome" pistons where the dome area has been relieved to reduce weight.

These parameters establish the basic configuration of not only forged pistons but cast and hypereutectics as well.
 
i would put my money on a piston failure due to detonation, which caused the rod to window the block and oil pan.
 
Great definition on quench. With that being said, do most backyard builders go through the steps to measure the compression ratio accurately and measure the quench or piston to head clearance? Let alone checking if the piston is at 0 deck height or below deck. I'll aggree that the reduced quench took away from the engine's detonation resistance, but it could not have eliminated the detonation on that engine with the factors that were already working against it.
 
A lot of aftermarket pistons generally run down the hole a little extra to drop compression and reduce detonation. KB-Silvolites run about .017 down the hole so a standard felpro gasket is .041 compressed plus the .017 and your a long way from .043 and detonation is your new best friend.
George
 
ZooMad75 said:
Great definition on quench. With that being said, do most backyard builders go through the steps to measure the compression ratio accurately and measure the quench or piston to head clearance? Let alone checking if the piston is at 0 deck height or below deck. I'll aggree that the reduced quench took away from the engine's detonation resistance, but it could not have eliminated the detonation on that engine with the factors that were already working against it.

And that would start getting into "blueprinting" I doubt a lot of the "backyard" builders actually get that far with measuring.
 
ZooMad75 said:
Great definition on quench. With that being said, do most backyard builders go through the steps to measure the compression ratio accurately and measure the quench or piston to head clearance? Let alone checking if the piston is at 0 deck height or below deck. I'll aggree that the reduced quench took away from the engine's detonation resistance, but it could not have eliminated the detonation on that engine with the factors that were already working against it.

i guess i'd be in the elite few backyard engine builders that actually take the time to think my build out. if i'm throwing down that kind of coin, there's no way i'm going to skip a step like this just to risk losing the engine to detonation. i may be a little overboard with radiusing the oil return holes in the lifter valley, tearing apart a brand new oil pump just to check gear clearance, and porting out the oil inlet in the rear main cap. my next engine i'm going to go so far as to polish the lifter valley for improved oil return.
 
I totally agree, I'd be checking piston to head/valve clearance. But then again I don't have any plans to build an engine with compression over 9.5:1 so I can run the cheap stuff without worry. If I was building a Hi-Compression engine, I'd sure take it into account, but for a stock rebuild or mild bump over stock with low compression it's overkill.

I've got vortec's to install on the 350 in my '69 Nova and know I will get a bump in compression from the 76cc heads I will be pulling off. But the pistons already have a slight dish, so quench not going to be optimal, but the compression ratio should work out to be 9-9.3 as far as I've figured out. Just depends on which head gasket to use.
 
just tossing around some numbers, most of the standard non-forged SBC 400 pistons i found had around a 12cc valve relief which would give a 10.8:1 CR with the proper quench distance and assuming a stock 9.025" deck height. this puts the dynamic compression ratio at almost 8.2:1, well past the 8:1 where proper ignition timing becomes critical in avoiding detonation with 92 octane pump gas. throw in a .043" head gasket "Fel Pro Thick head gaskets" and it drops to 10.1:1, with a 7.6:1 DCR, but throw in the extra .030" between the piston and the head and increase the hot spots in the combustion chamber in that area, detonation is almost certain.

did you pull the heads off of the engine?
 
I've been so busy I havent even got the Blazer off my trailer yet. :crazy:

Heres what it did look like before I put the motor in:
(bottom of this page): http://community.webshots.com/album/28668497hdSUOhcsoe/3

http://community.webshots.com/album/28668497hdSUOhcsoe/4

A local engine shop did the longblock. I got it from a friend with 1hr. running time on it, and put the 64cc heads on and the Comp 292 cam and gear drive etc... I had a friend at another engine shop do these heads with screw in studs, and I put the heads and the rest of the easy stuff back on it.

I've never rebuilt a motor before... just tore alot of them down in the past. When it went, I assumed it was something that I put in that caused it. Still have yet to see.

(by "thick" head gaskets, I just mean the normal head gaskets that come in a Fel-Pro set. I didn't use metal shim gaskets, which you all know anyway).
 
beater_k20 said:
i guess i'd be in the elite few backyard engine builders that actually take the time to think my build out. if i'm throwing down that kind of coin, there's no way i'm going to skip a step like this just to risk losing the engine to detonation. i may be a little overboard with radiusing the oil return holes in the lifter valley, tearing apart a brand new oil pump just to check gear clearance, and porting out the oil inlet in the rear main cap. my next engine i'm going to go so far as to polish the lifter valley for improved oil return.

we did the whole lifter valley routine on my buds, gasp, 302 roller stang motor.. came out sweet.. i'll prolly do the same for the stroker i'm gonna do.. it'll just be time in the garage... any labor mod is a cheap mod. ;)
 
you don't have the info on your pistons? MOst come with ratings like 10.2:1 with 64 cc heads.... If they are dished It SHOULD be lower than 11:1. 10.2:1 shouldn't be enough to make 87 ping by itself especially if your running a knock sensor, But pinging mostly occurs when you put a load on the motor like towing a load for example. Since you were towing a trailer it would make sense to assume it was pinging because you were running 87 octane on a high comp motor but until you come up with the piston rating or pull it apart nobody can say if it was pinging or not. I never read the whole thread cause its days long but did your temp ever go way up?
 

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