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Diagnosis :Murder:.....RTV poisoning killed the 327??

diesel4me

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Just thought I'd relate what I saw recently...............................................Sorry its so long,but its a worth reading post!..friend has a 1968 Chevelle come in his shop,that is a very minty car,probably an 8 out of ten,despite it being driven year round daily (only car the owner has registered now!)...has the original 327 in it,not clocked yet either!....my friend has done lots of work on it before--he installed a new Edelbrock camshaft,lifters,valve springs and seals 2 years back--the cam lost a lobe after only 2500 miles or so,and another was on its way out too--despite it being installed right,the proper break in lube used ,and the right procedure (friend has 20+years experience and has done dozens of cam & lifter jobs)....he was puzzled as to why it failed so soon,we figured poor hardening on the lobes perhaps,or the oil didn't have enough zinc maybe???...................................................................................................................................................................................................Anyway,he buys a new Melling cam this time (stock replacement,not a hi-perf one)...and it comes with new Melling lifters,so he tears it down and puts the cam & lifters in it...car once again runs great,owner is happy,and the car isnt seen in maybe a year since that job ,other than to fix a fried fusible link....................................................................................................The owner called him.says his valve cover "cracked" ,and was leaking (had cheap aluminum covers that sucked anyway,they made trouble with the altenator bracketry),so he put the GM ones back on it ,and used RTV on top of the old gaskets still glued to the covers,and ends up twisting 2 bolts off in the head!..no biggie,my friend says he'll have to drill and re-tap the holes,and get new valve covers.................................................................................................when the car arrived,it didn't have the right breather setup,it did have a PCV valve in the filler cap,some hot rod custom thing,and another one on the other valve cover with another PCV valve in it!--but no vacuum source to it...and blowby is huffing out of it,when air should be being sucked IN to it...we noticed oil was leaking from the timing cover seal too,but it almost stopped when I pulled the breather cap off,so evidently the crankcase had pressure building up in it......................................................................................................My friend said he removed the busted bolts after a few hours of drilling and swearing,welding,etc,but it came out good...he said each valve cover looked like they had a whole tube of RTV applied to them,and there was a bunch that got squeezed out onto the head and all over the push rods,valve springs,etc..took him quite awhile to carefully remove all of it,using a scraper and shop vac ,trying not to lose any down in the lifter gallery.....................he installs the new valve covers (cheap tin chromed autozone apecials--eeech!),he said he started it up,it ran nice and sounded good for about 30 seconds or so,then a lifter starts to clatter!.............:mad:...he figured maybe a rocker arm hit the covers,so he pulled them both off again,but found NO marks where it might have touched--and it STILL tapped with it running with NO covers too!--so now what????????........................................................................................car has decent oil pressure,but I'm betting it may have been run low on oil due to the seal leak,and the cam may be losing a lobe,but the weird thing is,all the rockers have equal travel,no bent pushrods either.we pulled them all out and rolled them on glass--and no other apparent issues with rockers or balls,or studs pulling out of the heads......we even tried removing the fuel pump to see if it was clacking ,I had that happen once on my K5's 350..............guess it has a lot of RTV stuck in a lifter or the oil galley feeding them,but it seems to have decent flow to all the rocker arms,which are fed by the lifters....................the engine also has a weird sound when you shut it off on the last revolution,like it has a lot of valve lash somewhere,but they are all adjusted to specs..................................................................................................my brother suggested maybe one of the lifter bores are sloppy,he's run into engines the factory "fixed" by boring the lifter holes .010 oversized,and GM was "sometimes" nice enough to tell you by stamping ".010" on the lifter galley....now I'm wondering if that the case on this 327???........:doah:................my friend said he's "done" fixing it in the car,said the owner should yank it out and rebuild it right,or buy a running motor and shove the original "matching number" one under a bench,in his shed,etc......of course he has no money for that!..................................................................................................It could be that its just a lifter too,but I dont think driving it will make it "go away",it sounds like its getting worse the longer you run it!..........lesson here is dont use too much RTV on those gaskets!!...it can BITE you hard in the wallet!....
 
friend of mine had a kid in his old vo tec school for small engines do his own re gasket job at home on his sbc he had in his new truck.

he said runs good no oil pressure and noisey. tryed few things my friend told him to check no fix.

told student pull motor bring in class and we will tear it down and find problem.

didnt take long to find it :whistle: pull pan and found bottom full of 1-2 tubes of blue rtv and oil pickup packed full also. :eek1:

pulled all covers and intake and cleanded the hell out of it. regasketed it and new pump and pickup. back in vehicle and fired up and perfect oil pressure and run great. dont know why it run good then :dunno::haha:
 
Depending on the weird noise when you switch it off, you might want to check the harmonic balancer.
My old truck started knocking and running weird, but then would straighten out and run right except for a slight knock that sounded like a lifter.

When you switched it off, you would hear a strange rattling noise.
Turned out the harmonic balancer was coming apart.
 
If nothing else, 45 years is quite a good run for anything.

I would agree after a few cams with munched lobes its time for a rebuild. Thats alot of metal shavings to put in the oiling system.
 
Use Permatex Indian Head gasket cement on any gasket and NOT the RTV. The Indian Head is the best damn gasket sealer going. Sometimes its hard to find.
 
Flat tappet cams will wear super fast with modern oils. Need to be running a zinc and phosphorus additive, or an oil with a high level, mainly designed for older vehicles. Otherwise you will continue to have problems with cams, or just go roller.

I had a 327 bored .060 over in my 63 Impala SS, full roller, and a bunch of other goodies, ran REAL good.
 
My friend is well aware of the oiling problems with the newer oils VS old with more zinc,thats why he decided to use diesel rated Rotella T oil in the car after the cam job (the second time!)....it seemed to do the trick,but he cant understand why it decided to start clattering AFTER he did the valve covers....the owner did complain of an "exhaust leak noise",but I think he was hearing lifters,not an exhaust leak,which CAN sound very similar................................................................................................. We inspected the harmonic balancer,because its been on and off so many times,but it appears OK...my friend hates working on this 327 because of it lacking a bolt on the balancer,it makes a suck job out of turning it over by hand when adjusting the valves,etc...had to use the altenator pulley nut and press down on the belt so it wont slip--he dont feel like buying the correct socket,when this car is the only one he needs it for....................................................................................................The price of gas,problems with ALL of my own vehicles and working around the yard the past 3 days have prevented me from seeing my friend,and finding out if anything regarding the Chevelle has gone down....he's fearing the owner might try blaming him for this,when it had nothing to do with his work.....seems everone is looking for someone else to blame nowadays...its not his fault the owner kept driving it with a leaky seal and valve covers,and possibly ran it very low on oil before adding any.....last I heard ,he hadn't heard "boo" from the guy...and he's worried about someone vandalizing the car while its on his shops lot too!....it's instances like this that prevents me fromdoing any repairs on anyone elses vehicles...
 
i try not to use any rtv if possible.that sucks on the 327.i loved the one in my 67 impala.with the powerglide it ran awesome.sounds like it needs a rebuild pronto.something in there aint right.
 
My friend is well aware of the oiling problems with the newer oils VS old with more zinc,thats why he decided to use diesel rated Rotella T oil in the car after the cam job (the second time!)....it seemed to do the trick,but he cant understand why it decided to start clattering AFTER he did the valve covers....the owner did complain of an "exhaust leak noise",but I think he was hearing lifters,not an exhaust leak,which CAN sound very similar................................................................................................. We inspected the harmonic balancer,because its been on and off so many times,but it appears OK...my friend hates working on this 327 because of it lacking a bolt on the balancer,it makes a suck job out of turning it over by hand when adjusting the valves,etc...had to use the altenator pulley nut and press down on the belt so it wont slip--he dont feel like buying the correct socket,when this car is the only one he needs it for....................................................................................................The price of gas,problems with ALL of my own vehicles and working around the yard the past 3 days have prevented me from seeing my friend,and finding out if anything regarding the Chevelle has gone down....he's fearing the owner might try blaming him for this,when it had nothing to do with his work.....seems everone is looking for someone else to blame nowadays...its not his fault the owner kept driving it with a leaky seal and valve covers,and possibly ran it very low on oil before adding any.....last I heard ,he hadn't heard "boo" from the guy...and he's worried about someone vandalizing the car while its on his shops lot too!....it's instances like this that prevents me fromdoing any repairs on anyone elses vehicles...

Any diesel oil meeting the CJ4 spec,which came into effect around 2007 with the introduction of the DPF, and is standard now, has about the same amount of zinc and phosphorus as any conventional light duty oil. Government mandated this. Heavy truck oil such as delvac may not comply with this spec due to the longevity of heavy truck oil, but I know Rotella T does.
 
the guy doesn't deserve to be driving around in a 68 Chevelle that's somewhat hotrodded if he doesn't fix his own stuff.... asking for trouble taking that to various places to get work done (not implying anything about Bob's friend here)

a car like that requires the attention of a passionate owner, not a monkey at a Jiffy Lube... seen perfectly good cars go down the toilet from it...


the ONLY place I use RTV on a motor is intake ends.. that's it.... that sh*t's the debil.. sooooooo many guys think they know cars, and slather that sh*t on everything... hitack is good for glue, or a bit of permatex 300 or indianhead here and there for imperfect surfaces.... but RTV combined with gaskets is retarded, think about it, your putting silicone on something you want to stay in place... great way to have it mush out of position..

rant off...

Ryoken - did a 454 long block parts swapover yesterday as a matter of fact...
 
Use Permatex Indian Head gasket cement on any gasket and NOT the RTV. The Indian Head is the best damn gasket sealer going. Sometimes its hard to find.


My Dad,who was a classic/original Chevy hotrodder :bow:,swore by Indian Head. He also told me the hottest motor at the race,and a sure bet,was a 283 with a hairline crack....said to bet pink slips on it that night then retire it the next day 'cuz it made its grand exit....wish I were a 10th as good a mechanic as he was....
 
I agree that anyone who owns a nice classic like this car,should be enough of a gear-head to fix anything on it him/herself!....this guy is one of those that doesn't really know all that much about cars,and is better off staying OUT from under the hood!...he is lucky he met my friend,who knows old Chevy's well and doesn't take advantage of his lack of repair knowledge...we both agree its a sin this car gets used daily,even in winter during snowfalls,its just begging to get creamed by some idiot,or at the least,get salty and rot away ,I'm really surprised at this cars condition,despite the daily "abuse"...............................................................................................................................................................................................Saw my friend yesterday,the car was gone,owner called around looking for a good used "drop in" 350 engine,none of the salvage yards around here had one that was gauranteed to run good,they did have a few,but they were pulled long ago and sat awhile...so he started calling auto machine shops asking about the price of a rebuild--most wanted 2000+ bucks for an "easy" rebuilt with no boring or crank turning needed,that included parts & labor,but he'd also have to shell out another few hundred to have the engine pulled out,that was a "cash and carry" price!..I think a new GM Goodwrench 350 can be had for less from a dealer !..........................................................He found a local shop that supposedly has a good reputation (I never heard of them though,but then I have been out of the loop lately)...they said for around 2500 bucks,they will pull his motor,completely rebuild it,including any machine work,and put it back in and have it "turn key" for that price--maybe less if some of the newer parts are OK and can be re-used.....I guess thats a good as any option,as the car will then retain its "matching numbers" and still be 100% original--unless they find a fatal flaw in the engine somewhere..........................................................................................I used a lot of Indian Head Gasket Shellac in my younger days,its great for lawn mower engine base gaskets or similar uses where no gasket is used--but be fore warned,once it hardens up,its as tough as weld to remove!--I once used some on a weepy upper radiator hose on a 283 I had in a '67 Impala,it always had a green puddle on the intake at the T-stat housing...it sealed the hose up nicely,but when I had to replace it a few years later,I needed a mallet and a wood chisel to chop off the hose bit by bit,then buff the T-stat housing on a wire wheel for 10 minutes before I saw aluminum again!..:doah:......................................................................................I bet that stuff would ruin an engine quick if a bottle "accidentally" got poured into the crankcase!..:whistle::....
 

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