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Did you waste your money on K&N?

Concerning any type of dirt particles entering through the intake...........

Any particles that get through the filter are going to be very, very small. These small particles are more likely to stay suspended in the air. When the combustion occurs most of the particles will be burned up or sucked out through the exhaust. The only way these particles could actually enter the engine oil is if they somehow managed to get past the rings. If the rings are letting dirt particles through then they are also letting a crapload of air (compression) through.
 
Intuitively, I would agree. But the study I saw, they were doing oil analysis trying to determine what was causing oil contamination and engine wear type stuff. They found lots of tiny silicate in the oil and that was determined a primary wear contributor. They ruled out block casting contamination and other sources. Further tests indicated most (almost all?) was coming in through (or past) the filter. I don't recall whether they made any claim about how it was getting into the oil or what portion of the bypass particulate made it into the oil, I just recall them finding that it came through the intake tack. It's been a long time and I don't recall where I read it, but that was the impression I took away from it.

Another point. Look at OTR trucks and those that work in mines, quarries, and such. They all run the big drum *paper* filters. That's on massive super/turbo charged diesels working hard. From what I've heard (I believe it was on TDP in the filters thread) they run paper for the superior filtration. I don't know if there is even an option for foam, and maybe it does not exist. If not, could it be because that industry would debunk the "quality" and "performance" fairly quickly since they do keep accurate records on maintenance and fuel costs? Just rambling now…
 
Lets see....
I have a 93 Bonniville with 140K it has had a K&N filter almost since new.

1989 K5 K&N Filter since new 100K. Sees extreme dusty conditions.

1987 Mustang 5.0 150K Has had K&N on for aprox 75K miles. This pony has been rode hard and put away wet many times. All the holes were within 5% and right on to factory specs on my last compression test. I wish the K&N filter would wear the engine out. I want to rebuild it but it runs too good to tear it apart.

All these engines run like new with no oil consumption problems. If K&Ns cause abnormal wear I sure have never seen any.
I certanily am not going to let some test on the internet convince me to quit using a filter I have been using on all types of motor vehicles with NO ADVRESE EFFECTS FOR OVER 30 YEARS!
 
Gotta admit, that is an impressive record. But no better or worse than any other properly maintained filter should do in those cases.

I'm just curious what benefits (if any) you feel the K&N provide? If there was a significant measurable increase in some performance characteristic of the engine when running a K&N, I could accept that as a performance trade off with filter quality. But the only facts (again, as much as you can believe anything in print [internet, magazine, etc.] is a "fact") I've seen indicate that dyno sheets and track times show no significant improvements in using a K&N on any reasonable motor (possibly excluding high end dragsters and mud bogging, tractor pulling monsters).

And BTW, that was not just "some test on the internet". That makes it sound like a bunch of guys just got together for some comparison testing or something. The test was performed by a respected testing institution, the same type the filter manufacturers like K&N would use if they actually wanted that data documented and verifiable. The accuracy and impartiality of that data is what this company stakes its entire reputation and livelihood on. I'm inclined to put a bit more stock in those results than I would "some internet test".

To me, the only question is relevance. How much benefit do I get from the K&N (or UNI or whatever) vs. paper. What is it's total "cost" (initial, replacements, cleaning, time, etc.)? How much does that extra particulate hurt the engine? How those (admittedly vague) quantities stack up against each other, and how they relate to my overall goals, will determine what I choose. At this moment, this is how I see it.

1) Engine performance enhancement: *No discernable benefit* (hp, torque, mpg, or any other quantifiable metric that I've ever seen tested) one way or the other when applied to my K5, my truggy, or my tow rig, That's a mild "street/torque" motor, a stock TBI motor, and a chipped diesel respectively.

Result: Pretty much even on both counts.

2) Cost: Foam has higher initial cost followed by cleaning/oiling solution costs and time vs. replacement elements. Long term the foam may pull ahead, depending on value of time invested in cleaning and dealing with the mess.

Result: Foam may achieve a slightly lower dollar cost in the long run, but the mess and time offsets that long term benefit for me. I'll lean toward paper here.

3) Engine longevity concerns: I think the tests speak for themselves. Whether you believe the bypass particulate has a major effect on engine longevity or not, the foam filters clearly do bypass more than paper. And that is worth considering.

Result: Paper is the clear winner. How much that matters is debatable.

Based on these results, I can't see any reason to even consider a K&N or anything other than the Delco paper element for *my* uses. I do feel the filtered air intake quality issues are important, which is why the UNI is coming out of my DMax. But it's not so overwhelming that I ran right out and snatched it from the air box before setting it on fire.

I hope you guys don't think I'm on a crusade on this point. It's just something that currently has my attention and interest. I'm really just representing my current views (which do change over time as new data is presented) and trying to gain better understanding with the side bene of also documenting our various views for those in the market for a filter.

Read the data, try to evaluate its accuracy and relevance for your application, and make the best decision you can for your needs. Even then I think you should keep an open mind. In the past, I thought the UNI was right for my DMax, now I've changed my mind, and in the future, I may learn something else that changes my mind back. Is that "wishy washy"? I would say "no". It's keeping an open mind and learning from new information…
 
As far as the test, I don't doubt the results. However, it is just one test. For example how many drugs (prescription types) have gone through extensive testing and met FDA guidelines and are called "safe" only to be pulled off the market because they are in fact not safe. I know its not the same thing, but just an example of how even lab tests can be wrong.

I also wonder, because now my interest is peaked, what level of dirt/dust/particulate would be considered bad, ie is there a number that is considered within the normal operating range? Of coarse none is the best option, but I can't imagine anything being 100% effective and not carry a + / - range.

Also on a new tangent, I realize that manufacturers say whatever they need to and make whatever claims they want to sell products. I mean look at fram oil filters....according to them they are "best" you can put on your car, which we know that there are better. Of coarse I ran fram for years with no problems, so again is "better" neccessary or does the lower quality fram product work well enough to not cause any problems.

I have too much time on my hands :1zhelp:
 
I agree on all points.

The FDA testing is similar to what would be needed to test if the filters actually had any bearing on engine life. Lots of different engines in different applications, double blind testing, all sorts of complexity.

And your reference to Fram and having run them with "no problems" is exactly what I think about K&N and people who report "no problems". Did that Fram hurt anything? Did that K&N hurt anything? Will they cause problems in one vehicle, but not in another? Hard to say really. But most of us would rather go with something that appears to be the "best" choice based on the available data, not necessarily on "what we or others have done for years". So, most would choose the safety of knowing that a good WIX filter costs only a little more but is measurably better in every way except in Frams adverts. And most who know the "facts" would do this even if they and their father ran Fram for years with no identifiable problems. Same with the air filters except the "cheaper" filter appears to be very likely the better option, but people still firmly support the more expensive option with all the data other than hype and anecdotal evidence against it. I think most everyone agrees that Fram sucks after both visual inspection AND *labratory tests* proved they were inferior. This is much the same since several report that they can often see tiny holes in foam filters (especially after multiple cleanings) and careful laboratory tests now confirm the lower filtration performance.

It seems to me that those who still believe K&N (and other foam) filters are "ok" for normal use should still be happy to save a few bucks and run Fram, yes? I mean Fram still gets out the sticks-n-stones and most of the small stuff. Only a relatively small percentage of the tiny particles get by the Fram that the WIX would catch, right? The smaller amount of media in the Fram shouldn't matter that much either if there is really no external input of contaminates into the oil (like stuff the air filter didn't catch). There are other factors that may be relevant in the Fram deal too, but just trying to make a point…
 
For me the K&N arguement comes down to I will not remove mine in favor of something else based on that test. I also live in the PNW and water is something to consider, so the K&N has an advantage for me. But will I buy a K&N again after all this new info on them, probably not. When mine is no longer serviceable I will probably go to a paper element, but I will also have to run a stock type air cleaner so that water isn't sucker in.

On the oil filter topic, when I did my last oil change (long overdue) I did not put a fram oil filter back on there, I went with the Napa Gold (made by Wix). I wasn't in a hurry to take off the fram after reading the testing that showed them to not be very good, but the next time around I chose a different product. Will be the same deal when it comes time to replace the K&N.
 
it doesn't matter either way all your money will end up in my hands anyways, come buy a $75 K&N filter and cleaning kit or 5 $14 filters doesn't matter to me as long as you pay
 
ntaj*ep said:
Amen brother
Oh really?

It sure doesn't absorb water all that well.

I have a K&N in my trail rig. I got it from a customer for $5 when I worked at Autozone. I sold him a shorter one that cleared his hood.

That said I wouldn't run a K&N on any engine I expected to last. My trail rig's engine has had water, sand, dirt, you name it inside....nothing's going to hurt that thing any more than it is already, and it was cheap and it can be cleaned.

I sure as hell wouldn't run one in my DD or tow rig though....bad news.
 
Damning evidence AGAINST a K&N

Granted, this is a one filter - one vehicle test, but I find it telling.
My fibreglas Dune buggy has a K&N filter. The metal base to the filter also gets coated with filter oil. Anytime I open up the filter after having had the DB out in the dirt there is grit of a size that I can feel with my fingers trapped in that oil. That leads me to believe that at least grit of the same size has gotten into the engine.

To be fair, I have not oiled the metal base of a paper filter for comparison. I would expect to see grit there too, but I would also expect the size of the grit to be smaller and for there to be less of it.

I do not think a pavement only/mostly driven vehicle will ever really push a K&N. But when I look at the filters on heavy equipment mostly what I see are a Donaldson.

Filters on off road racers are rarely anything except a UMP, which uses the the Donaldson paper elements in a lighter aluminum filter can. Those that do use a oil wetted fliter usually have an oil wetted foam prefilter wrapped around a cotton gauze "K&N" filter, And they are typically so burried in the vehicle that most of the dust goes past them.
 
For me using Paper vs Cotton is simple economics its cheaper for me to buy 1 K&N than 5 or more paper filters a year for my K5. I also get better over all fuel milage. And better over all performance. I sure ain't going to quibble about a few microns of dust. Which I doubt will hurt my engine worse than my lead foot will.

I wont argue. Paper does filter better. AC delco is the best paper filter on the market. Paper filters are great as long as you keep clean ones in your vehicle.
But if they are neglected they will pass a lot of dirt and of course fuel milage suffers.
Flat pannel K&Ns dont filter as well as the round or conical ones. Round and Conical K&Ns are good filters. Most of these "Tests" you see on the Net.Are done on the flat pannel type K&Ns which have been proven to pass more dirt. That has been commmon knowlage for many years. K&N even shows results on their site that shows their flat pannel filters don't filter as good as round. K&N says on their site: "Do your homework and decide which filter is the best for you". Thats why they make their CAI kits with conical filters.
The guy that did the tests in the posts that started this thread admits his bias against K&N. he set out tp prove that K&Ns weren't the best filter for a D-max. Great! I dont own a D-Max!. So why should his test data relate to me?
Why, Because of his data should I put on a filter that I can take out and clog up in a week of off road use.? Then spend more money to buy a new one.

K&Ns were orginally developed for MX and desert racing. I rember when they first came out. They were great! You could run a desert race without your filter clogging. Even when they were caked with dirt they still flowed good. They were way better than the crappy paper and foam filters that came on dirt bikes back then.
If K&Ns are junk as some of these people on the net claim Why Does K&N dominate the Off road race circut? Why isn't everyone using AC delco?
Answer= They win races with K&N filters. Lots of races.
If people were blowing engines because K&Ns did not filter out the bad stuff. Nobody would use them. K&N would have never grown to be the biggest performance filter maker in the world. Since the early 70s K&Ns have been tried, tested, and proved in the toughest labs in the world. Labraories In Baja California. Secret test sites in deserts of Nevada, And extensive tests world wide from from Paris to Dakar have all proven that K&Ns work. And work well.
 
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K&N Official Response

Here is the direct response I got from K&N TecH. They were given the link to view the comparison test but I'm sure they had it already. See what you think.

"The filter test conducted by Test Stand comparing the K&N Filter to many other original equipment and replacement filters is flawed in several aspects. First, using data published in their test report, the efficiencies calculated for all of the filters tested are correct, with the exception of the K&N filter. Using their data, the efficiency of the K&N filter would calculate out to be higher than the published efficiency in the report. This raises an issue of credibility. Also, the protocol that is outlined does not follow the industry standard for air filter testing. K&N, routinely, has air filter testing performed by a nationally recognized, independent research laboratory and these independent tests report a substantially higher efficiency than the test stand report."



Thank you,

Leon S. Collins

K&N Technical Support
 
Yes! That's the kind of stuff I wanted to see, at least some of it. Thanks for the further posts!

But I still want to see references to quantifiable tests that say K&N (or foam of any type) delivers these mpg or power increases as claimed. If I went back through my magazine archive, I'm sure I could find the article where they specifically tested those claims and found the measurable benefit near or at zero.

As ntsqd said, you see lots of the Donaldson (and similar) filters off-road, I don't recall seeing many K&N at all in the really serious top-runners. But that's not an area I know much about.

Thunder:
You say that its common knowledge that the K&N flat filter does not filter as well as the round. Well, I guess I’m out of the loop on that since I didn't know this. I poked around a little on the K&N site but didn't find anything. Since you seem to have found some relevant info, could you please post some links in this thread? Assuming the flat vs. round is true, and that the K&N data is "unbiased" (big if there) then you may have a very good point on round vs. flat. I would also love to see the other test data you mention. I generally take manufacturer provided "test data" with a whole box of salt, and give much more weight to truly independent tests (even if read on the internet) but it is worth considering. And finally, automotive filters are way different than dirt bike filters, and I don't think K&N is really a major player at the top of automotive off-road racing, but I could definitely be wrong there. As for "K&N being the biggest performance manufacturer in the world" somehow validating their product. I think it could easily be more a product of successful marketing. Do you also think MS is the best software company in the world? Or that IBM makes the best computers? Or even that GM (or Ford) makes the best cars (modulo the GM truck site bias)?

jiminycricket:
Thanks for the reply from K&N. I wonder what he means by "not correct". I'm not going through the whole test looking for a mistake, and I think if there was one it would have been found by those much smarter than me. Could you please respond to him and ask for more clarification? If his statement is true, the YES it does raise a huge issue of credibility. But the raw data should still be valid given the lab that produced it, assuming it was not altered. Given that numerous people saw the actual data reports I doubt they could falsify the raw data without it "coming out". But the conclusions would be much easier to fabricate/falsify if nobody checked carefully. Hard to believe (but possible I suppose) given that on TDP there were some smart people who defended K&N and UNI vigorously, and who were obviously motivated to find flaw, and that was never mentioned. As for their testing, where can we see the publicly documented details of the results? If it's not available for the public, preferably in some manner that can be verified as accurate and not "massaged", then it's just words.


For clarity, this should be broken into 2 categories which are balanced against each other.

1) Does it actually provide a measurable increase in performance.

1.a) For longevity performance I'll readily conceded that it will outlast a paper but the hassle and cost of cleaning negates any benefit in that area as far as I'm concerned.

1.b) Increased Power has been tested on diesels and on gas burners. I've never seen evidence, other than that provided by the manufacturer sales literature, that indicates any significant improvement.

1.c) Increased MPG is much like "increased power". You see people who claim improvements, but every article or carefully measured "test" (where they run on a track and exactly (as closely as possible) duplicate speed, number of stops, acceleration, etc.) indicates little or no difference when compared to comparable a paper element.

2) Does the admittedly less effective filtration (I don't think anyone debates this at this point) hurt your engine. I have NO facts to indicate one way or the other. Best I can do is a vague recollection about a study on oil contaminates I read some time in the past.


For me it's just a matter of, "I feel less has got to be better, and without clear performance improvements to balance the potential risk, I'll avoid foam filters in the future."
 
My .02

I have owned many vehicles. I have only installed one K&N and it was on a 2000 Maxima that I sold. I believed the hype and thought about the cost savings (I didn't realize I was going to sell it). I did not notice any difference in power or MPG.

I have three vehicles now and all run paper filters.

What I am wondering about the tests though is this:

I believe the "foam" filter can allow larger particulate to pass through as the "holes" (for lack of a better term) are physically bigger, but I was wondering about prep and use. As stated by K&N and other similar manufacturers, the oil is what actually gives them their filtering capacities. The holes are not in a straight line so particulate cannot just "pass" through, it will bounce/ricochet/etc and get caught in the smaller crevices and stick due to the oil, also if a paper filter has .001 micron (just using numbers for comparison) holes, any particulate smaller than that can enter, whereas an oiled filter (even with holes up to .003 micron) can trap much small particles because they will become lodged in the oil/filter media.

I'm not saying the test was rigged, but if a "dry" K&N filter was used, it would definitely allow larger particles through. We all know they can make a "fair" test unfair. A fair test is to test filters under the same conditions. A paper filter is "dry", so to be fair, they would have to test the K&N dry. Again, not saying they did, but......

Also, if K&N filters do allow larger debris to enter into the engine under correct use, wouldn't the other filter companies be exploiting that in their advertising/media (I know I would)?

Again, I don't currently use them, but I'm not sure I 100% agree with this or even there own tests....

I will add that I do think an oiled filter "can" filter better than any paper media as any particulate smaller than a paper filters "holes" can get through, whereas a oiled filter "can" trap much smaller. Whether K&N's do or not is still unproven in my mind.

Again, my .02
 
Good points. The only thing I can add is that the filters were all used straight out of the OEM box. That means the foam filters were oiled since they come pre-oiled. That is my understanding at least.
 
My .02

For what it's worth,,,One of the harshest enviroments I have ever seen has been transport refrigeration units running small 4 cylinder diesels.These engines run 24/7,, some times 365 days a year with maintainace allway's the last thing on the truck drivers mind. These "REEFER" units use an oil bath type air filter with no real filter media other than steel wool and oil bath the intake air passes thru.
When I would service these units,, sometimes I would remove 3/4 inch of dirt from the bottom of the oil cup. I just have to believe that the K&N filter used properly with the spray oil that they sell does a superior job of trapping dirt than a paper filter,,and actually the filtering effect INCREASES as the filter gets stopped up.
yes, air flow will drop, but the air passing thru must pass increasing micron levels as the filter plugs up.

BTW I run K&N's on my blown 454 with no Ill effects,,,,when they get wet or muddy they clean up quick and I can keep wheelin" when paper ones get wet
day's pretty much over,,,just my .02 cents
 
I run a cone K&N on my turbo 6.2, and love it, I can honestly say there was a power gain with it, as opposed to the old setup...although, the air intake on my truck was "custom" from the previous owner, an extrememly restrictive type deal. I like it due to the fact I can clean it. Sometime soon I plan on getting one for my Blazer...if not geting the filtercharger setup so I can put a cone on it to, and not the air box...
 
Just for grins i took a shot of my Intake protected by a K&N. The last time I cleaned it up was last August. Its hunting season its been dry, and I have been running my K5 hard. It has spent a lot of time offroad and seen a lot of dirt and dust. I have also been using my K5 as a DD for the last month cuz i dont drive my Mustang much in the winter.
1008MVC-006S.JPG


As you can see its pretty clean in there. Looks like that leaky dirt passin POS K&N is doing a pretty good job.
There is a little dirt in there. You can see a faint line & a smudge I made by poking my finger at it, below the breather tube. Upon further inspection I found my base gasket was bad and leaking a bit around the base.(You can see where the gasket is missing below the breather tube. Glad this post made me look at it) It seems like if The K&N was passing dirt the crankcase breather tube area would be dirty but as you can see it is very clean. Also that TB has 100K on it. it aint in bad shape either. It does have new injectors tho. And no i did not clean things up for this pic.

Here's a link to good read on a un biased test Ford Muscle magizine did on filters. it says both good and bad about K&Ns:http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/01/airfilters/index.shtml
Also I did a search on "Automotive air filter tests'' and "K&N Filter dyno" and found a lot of conflicting info. Both pro and con.
It seems like from the stuff I read on stock engines there is little or no HP gain from installing a K&N. But on modified and boosted engines there can be as much as 10 hp gains if installed correctly.
 
snippage....
I'm not saying the test was rigged, but if a "dry" K&N filter was used, it would definitely allow larger particles through. We all know they can make a "fair" test unfair. A fair test is to test filters under the same conditions. A paper filter is "dry", so to be fair, they would have to test the K&N dry. Again, not saying they did, but......
That would not be a fair test since the K&N would not be tested as it is intended to be used. Otherwise testing a paper filter wet with filter oil would also be a fair test. Which it is not.
Might be interesting to see what oiling a paper filter does though.
I will add that I do think an oiled filter "can" filter better than any paper media as any particulate smaller than a paper filters "holes" can get through, whereas a oiled filter "can" trap much smaller. Whether K&N's do or not is still unproven in my mind.
Paper filters do not have the media depth that cotton gauze oiled filters do, however they also are a labrinyth path for airflow and not just a straight thru shot.

On my first trip with LocoMocos to El Currenta, Baja we drove thru silt bowls that were deep enough to push up a 'bow-wake' of silt over the top of my 4" lifted Sub's hood. You literally could sink to your knees in this stuff and it was extremely fine, about like flour. I ran a K&N foam Pre-filter on the inlet snorkle on the stock air filter can. Then I ran a stock paper filter in the can. I carried a spare filter expecting to have to replace it. It's still in the box out in the garage. When we got home the pre-filter was so nasty looking I didn't want to touch it. Based on this I would encourage anyone running an open K&N filter in the dirt to also run the foam pre-filter.
Just for grins i took a shot of my Intake protected by a K&N. The last time I cleaned it up was last August. Its hunting season its been dry, and I have been running my K5 hard. It has spent a lot of time offroad and seen a lot of dirt and dust.
As you can see its pretty clean in there. Looks like that leaky dirt passin POS K&N is doing a pretty good job.
Coat the inside of the air filter can with the K&N oil and run it for a while. Then let's see what it looks like. The various filter oils are much more 'sticky' than lubricating oils. I'm curious if mine is the only one that has grit stuck to the metal inside the filter.

With regard to using a K&N on a diesel, diesels are more senstive to intake restrictions than gassers. Anything you do to reduce the power needed to draw air into the engine will show up in the driver's pant's seat. On my Rabbit p/u turbo diesel I could feel the difference btwn 70* ambient air temp and 80* ambient air temp. There was a 2-3 HP loss at 80 over what I had at 70. When your max is less than 100 HP that make the percentage gain quite large. Running w/o a filter on that 'truck' made even more power, but I wasn't going to do that except as a test. I would suggest a cold air induction system could gain enough power to be worth the effort.
 
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