Diesel guys

chalet2506 · Mar 3, 2007

rjfguitar said:
There is a couple of catches.

1. When you go to sell that diesel pickup on the used market, you are going to get 4-6K of that 8K back, if not even closer to the original 8K. Nearly guaranteed.

Present Value of Money - $8000 today is worth more than $8000 5 years down the road. Tack on finance charges and subtract depreciation on the engine, and its worth even more.

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I payed 22.9K for my '01 Ram and could have bought the exact same truck except with a 360 gasser for probably 15-16K.

There really isn't any higher maintenance costs with a diesel vs. a gas engine. People forget two things....

1. They want to compare a 3/4ton Diesel's maintenance cost vs. a 1/2ton gas truck. Then they add in what it costs to do brakes on that bigger truck, heavier tires, and more oil in the drivetrain....and turning it more into a 1/2t vs. 3/4 or 1ton costs.

Since nobody's putting diesels in 1/2ton trucks right now, and Larry's not towing anything, maintenance costs on 1/2ton as apposed to 3/4ton is a legitimate comparison.

Click to expand...

2. People think oil maintenance is more costly annually than a gas engine. First off, anyone that knows anything about a diesel knows it's dumb to dump oil at a 3K interval with an engine that hold 3 gallons of oil.

Touche. Oil change people always put a 3000 mile sticker in my truck. I generally run 7500 to 10000 depending on how I'm driving.

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Now sure, if you are being a dumb dumb and dumping 3 gallons of oil every 3K than yes it costs a heck of a lot more to change oil in a diesel. But, if you changed oil in a gas engine the same way, you'd be dumping your oil every 1K with your small block.

Basically it boils down to this. Diesel trucks cost more up front. Period.

Depending on the price of diesel relative to gas, depending on what breaks on it(don't buy a 6.0 liter Furd, ask me how I know), and depending on how long you drive it, you can offset the initial investment with lower operating costs of running it. This is assuming we're talking about a newer vehicle.

From a financial standpoint, I'd saying your better keeping your money on the front end by going with a lower purchase price, then trying to build equity in a highly depceciable asset.

If your buying older (86CUCV for example) everything changes.

That being said. I love my diesel and don't plan on going back to gas anytime soon, even though I could probably save some money.

chalet2506 · Mar 3, 2007

A new injector pump and lift pump on the Boss's Dodge Cummins ran him about $3000....

When something does break, don't take it to the dealer unless it's warrantied.

4by4bygod · Mar 3, 2007

chalet2506 said:
When something does break, don't take it to the dealer unless it's warrantied.

Not to get too far off topic, but read that warranty very carefully.. warranties cover "materials and workmanship" of the covered part, not damage caused by things they don't produce and can't control, like your fuel... that's biofuel, wvo, ULSD, whatever.

here are some direct quotes from cummins and internationals warranty documents regarding the issue.. they all pretty much say the same thing..

“Failures that result from the use of any fuel are not factory defects. Therefore the cost of repair would NOT be covered by ‘OEM warranty”.

Quoting OEM Position On Failures Caused By Diesel Fuel Or Biofuels

“The use of biodiesel does not affect the OEM materials and workmanship warranty.

However, any engine failure or performance issue caused by the use of biodiesel or

other fuel additives cannot be considered as defects of the engine, components

or workmanship - and would therefore not be covered by OEM warranty. This is no different from our position with any regular diesel fuel. “OEM Manufacturer” does not cover the damage caused by products from other companies that may have insufficient quality. It is important to ensure when using any diesel fuel or a B5 biodiesel blend with OEM engine that the fuel meets industry acceptable quality standards”

so, while the engine manufacturers can say that using alternative fuels won't void your warranty, it's a different ballgame when something goes wrong.. again, I don't mean to hijack or anything, but if you are gonna go diesel, you should know everything before you spend the money..

SUBFAN · Mar 3, 2007

I feel he got ripped off to a point....The lift pumps design was changed, and the fuel tank needed to be dropped for the new one to be put in there....

He should have given me some time to ask you guys where one could be gotten for less. Sometimes that fix it now mentality will cost you!!!!

K5dreamer · Mar 3, 2007

my CUCV cost me 1500 up front.... i think with two rebuilt alternators, a new starter, body work to repair some rust, new glowplugs, replacing the rear driveshaft yoke and u-joints, towing to the dealership, and upcoming repairs to replace the front wheel bearings (i dont feel comforateable messing with those front hubs just yet) and replacing the front rotors..... im going to be looking at around 4000 dollars total cost for the daily driver ive got right now......... oh and i might need a new radiator. so lets call it 4500 just to be safe, cuz i need a few other odds and ends.

for a used diesel, id say thats on par with a used gasoline truck, but id be willing to bet i get better gas mileage, and so long as i do most of the work myself, id be willing to bet that the parts for repairs arent that much more than a gasoline truck.

My personal opinion is also that the diesel trucks are more reliable, fewer parts to break, less complication, and a much simpler design. Of all the things ive had to fix on my truck, none of them have had to do with the engine. well cept that leaky oil pan gasket that needs to get fixed. or the glowplugs if you wanna split hairs.

rjfguitar · Mar 4, 2007

SUBFAN said:
I feel he got ripped off to a point....The lift pumps design was changed, and the fuel tank needed to be dropped for the new one to be put in there....

He should have given me some time to ask you guys where one could be gotten for less. Sometimes that fix it now mentality will cost you!!!!

That is also a bad thing, the intake "fix" sucks. It's actuall fuel output is less than the stock pump, making it restrictive for mods to the motor, and you wind up taking that thing back out anyway and replacing the factory lift pump with a different setup, aftermarket.

Can Can · Mar 4, 2007

A diesel is great until something goes wrong, then you had better hope you were saving every penny of that mileage savings....

I don't care what Bobby says. You hit the nail on the head with this one brother.......

1. When you go to sell that diesel pickup on the used market, you are going to get 4-6K of that 8K back, if not even closer to the original 8K. Nearly guaranteed.

Bull****. If you honestly believe that you're gonna get back all of your $8K investment in your diesel engine, you're friggin dreaming. That's crap and you know it, Bobby. :deal:

And before you get uppity with me, please recall that I bought my first diesel truck when you were still in grade school...... :whistle:

Pookster · Mar 4, 2007

I dont fully agree, nor disagree with the above statements.

Maintaince on a diesel is really just about the same as a gas motor- just at different interverals, and different parts and whatnot. Cost is almost the same.

Diesels in general have a higher duty status- meaning that they were designed to work harder, and have a higher MTBF (mean time between failure) than gas motors, since nobody really makes a HD gas motor (maybe the BBC or the v10's).

When comparing "initial costs" vs "selling cost" you have to keep in mind the overall time frame. A diesel within its first 5 years might recoop 85% of its price tag over the gas version. 10 years later, might get 60%. 20 years, and your talking 500 dollars over the gas version (such as a gas burb vs diesel burb). Depreciation still takes a hit.

Alternative fuels are great, and they will run in winter, if you have the proper setup. E85 is terrible, its a waste of resources- almost a 25% lower fuel economy on the same vehicle compared with running petrol.

Biodiesel is great, but it is unapproved in higher concentrations. Might change soon.

im all for supporting U.S. farmers and holding onto land. I find it endearing to have farmers who have had 5 generations of farming in their blood.

I find it nuts that people will buy hybrids. They are a waste of money, and they only reason they are affordable is because of the govt incentives to mfg's. The real cost of the prius is like 80k.

I also find it nice that so many of us keep old cars alive- They talk about emissions and what not, but truthfully, you have to look at all the junk waste product we produce. In our disposible world, it is no wonder people always try and point the finger to someone else.

K5dreamer · Mar 4, 2007

well said indeed

rjfguitar · Mar 4, 2007

CanmoreK5 said:
I don't care what Bobby says. You hit the nail on the head with this one brother.......

I won't disagree that diesel parts are higher, but they still last a lot longer than a gas engine itself. Shoot, my injectors will outlast a gas engine's life span.

Bull****. If you honestly believe that you're gonna get back all of your $8K investment in your diesel engine, you're friggin dreaming. That's crap and you know it, Bobby.

And before you get uppity with me, please recall that I bought my first diesel truck when you were still in grade school......

What you did years ago has zero bearing on today's market.

Go research the market Canmore, and you'll find out just how outdated your knowledge is from years ago. These aren't 6.2 diesels vs. a 454 option.

If you think I'm wrong....do an internet search for used trucks and compare gas vs. diesel with identical trucks... thats all I have to say about that.

Now, when you actually look at some 1-4 year old used trucks, you are welcome to apologize for being a rude a$$hat.

rjfguitar · Mar 4, 2007

MaxPF · Mar 4, 2007

rjfguitar said:
I won't disagree that diesel parts are higher, but they still last a lot longer than a gas engine itself. Shoot, my injectors will outlast a gas engine's life span.

Yeah, OK... :surepal:

Can Can · Mar 4, 2007

Bobby, Bobby, Bobby.........

Not only did I buy my first diesel rig when you were a little kid, I also work for a company that has a FLEET of over 750 trucks and pieces of equipment, and I've driven/operated more of them than I can remember over the years. I've seen them come and go, and am MORE than familiar with the costs of buying, operating, maintaining, and repairing these rigs. I don't care what your little links show, telling someone that they are gonna get their ENTIRE $8000 INVESTMENT BACK when they opt for a diesel motor is crap. I know it, you know it, everyone knows it. That was the point I was after.

And I stand by my point that although the longevity of a diesel motor will probably surpass that of a gasser, when that same diesel breaks, the parts and labor are GUARANTEED to cost you more.

Once again, I know it, and so do you. I know you really like diesel motors, but that shouldn't prevent you from admitting they are not without their downsides..... :deal:

Now, when you actually look at some 1-4 year old used trucks, you are welcome to apologize for being a rude a$$hat.

Rude asshat? I haven't even started yet.......

85-m1028 · Mar 4, 2007

kit said:
My reasons for going diesel are a bit more patriotic than practical or fun.
I'm just sick of putting all my money toward breeding more terrorists.

If anyone out there can remember, or has ever done any reading on the subject, they might recall that the diesel engine, designed by a german of that name, was meant to run on vegetable oil.

They can still do that, in fact. I, for one, would much rather put our American born farmers to work growing more soybeans, for fuel, and keep the wealth and power here.

If we could all switch to other sources, the middle easterners might just run out of money, to buy guns with. Or at least have less reason to point them in our direction.

UHHH, Sounds good in principle, but really it's not that simple!
remember that up until recently the cost of producing bio diesel has always priced it out of the consumer market.

If we cut our crude imports by any significant percentage the resulting production surplus would cause crude oil future stocks to plummet. The cost of a barrell of oil most likely be cut in half, and once again bio fuels would be priced out of the consumer market.

That's the basic principle of supply and demand, why should everyone else get cheap oil?

CDA 455 · Mar 5, 2007

TexasBlazerBoy said:
Diesel guys inlighten me. I have never owned a diesel.

Does the fuel mileage justify the purchase of a new diesel and cost of fuel. Do you get more miles per gallon out of it than a gas engine?

I can fill up my 02 Dodge 4 dr SLT(5.9L) for about $50 and maybeeee run all week.

I drive round trip 40+ miles a day to go to work. I don't have to tow anything, although I am working on getting a tow bar for my Blazer.

Gas where I live is $2.25, Diesel is $2.43.

Please no bashing the diesel nOOb or the nOOb period

Thanks
Larry

My two cents:

If you decide to buy new, Brand new, I would highy recommend ordering your truck from the factory.
Find the Fleet Sales Department at your favorite dealership and order exactly what you want.
You'll pay invoice plus $0.-$1000. 'ordering fee'. Don't pay one penny more!

Me:
Jan. '99 ordered my Ferd F-350 PS TD. Paid $500. ordering fee. Put $1000. deposit down.
March '99 Truck delivered to dealership. Invoice price $29,500. (rounded). Suggested list $37,500. (rounded). Out-the-door price including tax, lic., des. charge $33,500. (rounded).

4by4bygod · Mar 5, 2007

Pookster said:
I dont fully agree, nor disagree with the above statements.

Maintaince on a diesel is really just about the same as a gas motor- just at different interverals, and different parts and whatnot. Cost is almost the same.

Diesels in general have a higher duty status- meaning that they were designed to work harder, and have a higher MTBF (mean time between failure) than gas motors, since nobody really makes a HD gas motor (maybe the BBC or the v10's).

When comparing "initial costs" vs "selling cost" you have to keep in mind the overall time frame. A diesel within its first 5 years might recoop 85% of its price tag over the gas version. 10 years later, might get 60%. 20 years, and your talking 500 dollars over the gas version (such as a gas burb vs diesel burb). Depreciation still takes a hit.

Alternative fuels are great, and they will run in winter, if you have the proper setup. E85 is terrible, its a waste of resources- almost a 25% lower fuel economy on the same vehicle compared with running petrol.

Biodiesel is great, but it is unapproved in higher concentrations. Might change soon.

im all for supporting U.S. farmers and holding onto land. I find it endearing to have farmers who have had 5 generations of farming in their blood.

I find it nuts that people will buy hybrids. They are a waste of money, and they only reason they are affordable is because of the govt incentives to mfg's. The real cost of the prius is like 80k.

I also find it nice that so many of us keep old cars alive- They talk about emissions and what not, but truthfully, you have to look at all the junk waste product we produce. In our disposible world, it is no wonder people always try and point the finger to someone else.

Hi pookster!

I agree with a bunch of what you said, but.. ( there's always a but ) One could make the same argument against biofuels that you make against hybrids.. gov't subsidies and mandates hide the true costs of the fuel, both on the production side and user side.. in other words, if the gov't didn't subsidize the production of biofuels ( ethanol / biodiesel, etc ) and create markets for it by mandating it's use,and pay fleets to use it ( with tax credits ) nobody would bother with it because it would too much to make and use on a large scale..

And let's not forget that corn is a food staple.. as ethanol use gets huge, get ready for 5 dollar boxes of cereal.. And everyone points to brazil as an ethanol success story..they're just cutting down more of the rain forest to make more room to grow sugar cane..

One of the big petro companies ( sunoco ? ) came out and said - " as long as there are starving people in the world, we feel it is unconscionable to use a food source as a fuel"... and if you're devoting crop space to soybeans for biodiesel, then that's raises food prices as well.

And furthermore, there's a mileage hit with all alternative fuels because of the lower BTU content.. with the last transportation bill, the trucking industry was scared to death of more than a 5% biodiesel madate.. the greenies were shouting from the rooftops that the truckers were happy to use 5%.. of course, because the thought of more than 5% gave them heartburn.. there's a difference between embracing a technology, and relief you dodged a bullet..

I'm in this world of fuels every day and I understand folks being fans of these technologies, but the one inescapable fact is this.. you'll never replace diesel fuel because you can't replace the energy return for the price you pay at the pump for diesel.. nothing else comes close.. and the powers that be still ignore the fact that ethanol and biodiesel raise NOx levels, which is an emission states will be under the gun to reduce..

the big winners in the alternative fuels deal are big agriculture, and the congressmen cashing their lobbyists checks..

TexasBlazerBoy · Mar 5, 2007

Thanks for the information guys. It seams there is always 2 sides to every story....

While I am not in the market as we speak, I am interested in the concept of owning a Diesel.

rjfguitar · Mar 5, 2007

CanmoreK5 said:
Bobby, Bobby, Bobby.........

Not only did I buy my first diesel rig when you were a little kid, I also work for a company that has a FLEET of over 750 trucks and pieces of equipment, and I've driven/operated more of them than I can remember over the years. I've seen them come and go, and am MORE than familiar with the costs of buying, operating, maintaining, and repairing these rigs.

Once again, this is basically worthless info as it has no bearing on the market of late model used diesel pickups. I could go on and on too that I'm a farmer and own tons of equipment with gas and diesel engines, three 454 powered Chevys, 350's, and a couple diesel Rams too....all that WE own, not some company that I work for....

I don't care what your little links show, telling someone that they are gonna get their ENTIRE $8000 INVESTMENT BACK when they opt for a diesel motor is crap. I know it, you know it, everyone knows it. That was the point I was after.

My original statement in question....

1. When you go to sell that diesel pickup on the used market, you are going to get 4-6K of that 8K back, if not even closer to the original 8K. Nearly guaranteed.

It's clear as day Canmore, I didn't say you are guaranteed your entire 8K investment back, I said in some cases you might be able to if you get the right buyer for your used truck. I would say I was right on with 4-6K when my findings (it's called research) found an average of $7,200 difference between the same gas and diesel pickup.

And I stand by my point that although the longevity of a diesel motor will probably surpass that of a gasser, when that same diesel breaks, the parts and labor are GUARANTEED to cost you more.

There is NO doubt a diesel lasts longer, there are Cummins rams out there with 1,000,000 miles on them. You can expect a half million out of a Dodge Cummins or Dmax, if the truck will hold together. You are lucky to get 175K out of an old carbed big block. Maybe 275K out of an injected one, if you are lucky.

Once again, I know it, and so do you. I know you really like diesel motors, but that shouldn't prevent you from admitting they are not without their downsides.....

Only downside is higher parts costs, but diesel parts aren't exactly failing left and right. My '01 with 137K has not had a single thing done to the engine since it left the factory 6 years ago.

I know the difference between driving a 454 daily and a diesel, it costs about twice as much in fuel and when you factor that extra $15 dollars a day it takes to run my 454 instead of my Dodge, I can afford some expensive parts FAST.

Can Can · Mar 5, 2007

This says it all:

all that WE own, not some company that I work for....

Okay, I give. You are a diesel GOD and everything you say about them is right on the money. I know nothing, and my 20 years of experience running diesel-powered equipment and trucks isn't worth your spit on the ground.

All hail Bobby, the Almighty Diesel King of CK5 and THE WORLD!!!!!!!!

You heard it here first, guys. Diesels will run for a MILLION trouble-free miles and you'll be able to recoup all of your costs when you go to sell it.

:surepal:

rjfguitar · Mar 5, 2007

CanmoreK5 said:
Okay, I give. You are a diesel GOD and everything you say about them is right on the money. I know nothing, and my 20 years of experience running diesel-powered equipment and trucks isn't worth your spit on the ground.

Canmore, quit dancing around the topic with worthless jibber-jabber. This isn't the Lounge like you are accustomed to.

I am interested in one topic....

Diesel parts are more expensive...DONE, I am not interested in that debate as I agree with everyone.

I am trying to get you to have an adult debate with me and you are failing miserably, I expect a more adult conversation out of you Canmore (I'm serious).

I am interested in this topic and this alone...which is you telling me I don't know what i am talking about saying you can get 4K, 6K, and even 8K back on your diesel engine investment.

Once you called BS on me with this statement, I backed up my position showing you a random pick of identical trucks with gas and diesel engines, showing the huge price gap between the engine types.

I showed you PROOF that diesel version late model trucks go for 4-8K more than their gas powere counterparts, yet you still call BS and refuse to back yourself up with anything but jibber jabber that is wasting my time.

Come on Canmore, prove me wrong that I think diesel versions go for more on the used market and provide clear information showing that diesels DON'T get any more money than gas counterparts. Back up your BS flag with quality adult conversation and examples to prove your point....or grab your jacket if you can't hack it and head back to the lounge.

Diesel guys

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