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doubler vs aftermarket box....UPDATE 3/5/11

wasted wages

wasted wages

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I have a T-400/205 I would like better overall gearing reduction..

I have looked into NWF/offroad design doublers...
And the Stak / Lowmax boxes....

what are some of the advantages / disadvantages of each ?

The way I see it is...

with the doubler....there is lower cost...but....I would have to find a 203 box and adaptor...as well as the doubler kit....rebuild everything,,, including having the rear drive shaft shortened and build a crossmember to support everything...the front shaft will be ok...square tube drive...


with the stak or lomax...everything would pretty much be a bolt in deal...but have an initial higher cost.....without much modification to the rest of the buggy...so it may just be a wash......

so...is the final crawl ratio's the same ????
or does the doubler win out in overall reduction ratios???

what say the brotherhood ????
 
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First, BEWARE there are quite a few people on Pirate having serious trouble with Stak cases. I would not go this route until the issues are gone.

I have an ORD doubler for my truck (which I have not wheeled yet) because I wanted a proven, durable low range option. Products like the Black Box, Klune and such are good but I was concerned about how they would hold up in a heavy truck.

That said, here in the south with the wetter climate than most the wheeling tends to be slippery and muddy so wheel speed can be more important. I think the Lomax 3:1 205 would be the ticket for our kind of wheeling.
 
While I have never liked the way NWF has been customer service wise thier black box is worth a look. Trust me it will hold up. A good friend of mine is running one. 460 C6 blackbox to a 205, on rockwells and 47s (now 54s but he hasn't wheeled those yet) They are plenty stout and way lighter than a 203 range box.

I have a doubler in mine and absolutely love it. I built my own triple sticks and used the cheapest doubler kit (D&D machine) out there, scrounged up the 205 I am into mine a grand total of 750 bucks.

The ratios of a doubler work well for me (4.56s and 42s with a stock small block)

If I had the money I would go stak or atlas, I know several guys who haven't had one issue with their staks. But if I went Atlas it would be the 4 speed one.

The NWF black box and 205 would be the ideal setup in my mind, very strong not the most expensive option but a nice one nonetheless
 
I went through this debate with myself for a few months before I finally had enough convincing to just buy an atlas 2 speed. I know they hold up to crazy abuse and are very reliable and easy to shift.

I got mine with the 5:1 low just because I know I will never be on anything other than rocks. I would consider the 4 speed if I had different trails than what I have here.

The cost difference wasn't huge considering the work and time that would have to go into sourcing some extra parts and fabbing a cross member. The weight was a big consideration for me as well.

I have not wheeled yet but I know I will not regret my decision.
 
With a Klune V or Black Box you will have a 4spd very similar to a Atlas 4spd with 5.44 low. I have the Atlas and love it. To be honest I like having the inbetween gearing instead of just low. I use all the low ranges on a typical day of wheeling.
 
The Lomax 205 kit isn't available and no definite word on when we can get them again, maybe mid next year. They are working on getting a new machine shop to build parts of them.
 
Also Advance Adapters has pulled their 4 speed Atlas' from the market, no clue on when they will be available either.
 
i have a ord version doubler, and i love it of coarse and no matter what brand or orientation i would want 2 different low ranges, and a seperate stick for the front drive.
also the 203/205 makes for a longer front driveshaft than an atlas or other. making a better front driveshaft angle.

honestly i dont think you could go wrong with any of them.
 
wasted wages said:
I have looked into NWF/offroad design doublers...
Click to expand...

Pros: cheap, stupid strong, three low range options
Cons: requires sourcing your own t-cases (we can do the whole setup complete and it's still significantly cheaper than a two speed Atlas)

You don't need to rebuild everything in the doubler setup if what you get is in good shape.


wasted wages said:
And the Stak / Lowmax boxes....
Click to expand...

The Stak is a pretty strong competitor for the Atlas if they get their reliability issues figured out.


There are all kinds of gearing options with the Stak and Atlas, that really depends on what you want and how much you want to spend.


Really this all depends on what you want and how much you want to spend.
 
ORD doubler. If you break, I say if, you can source parts at any local parts store. If you break an Atlas, Stak, or Black Box, you will be SOL. Napa does not carry those parts. The longer front drive line, doubler, and parts availablity are all advantages. Sure, an Atlas can take the beating but, I don't think it has the proven track record the doubler has.

LT.
 
I beg to differ on the proof of the Atlas. Look at how many are used in comp crawlers and racers. As far as the availability of the Atlas 4spd, they are close to being back in production.
 
We sell Atlas transfer cases all the time, so I'm not being biased against them.

The Atlas is NOT as strong as the doubler setup. The entire setup simply isn't as big as the 205 stuff, the gears are smaller etc. and from what we have seen they are more failure prone (certainly when the 205 has a 31/32 spline input and 32 spline outputs).

That doesn't mean the Atlas doesn't have it's place, its an awesome piece. Lighter, shorter, low range gear choices, etc.

For a one ton or lighter truck there really isn't a stronger setup than the 203/205 doubler.
 
wasted wages said:
I have a T-400/205 I would like better overall gearing reduction..

I have looked into NWF/offroad design doublers...
And the Stak / Lowmax boxes....

what are some of the advantages / disadvantages of each ?

The way I see it is...

with the doubler....there is lower cost...but....I would have to find a 203 box and adaptor...as well as the doubler kit....rebuild everything,,, including having the rear drive shaft shortened and build a crossmember to support everything...the front shaft will be ok...square tube drive...

I didn't rebuild my 203 and it works fine. You have a 205 already, if it works fine, why rebuild it?

You will need to have the rear drive shaft shortened and I would question whether your front will work. My rear got about 6" shorter and the front got 6" longer (they are real close to the same length now). I put a cv in the rear and am super happy as it stopped some vibrations that I had before.

Building a crossmember was a bit of a pain, but I enjoy some fabricating on my rig and the steel was less than $100.Don't think it took much more than a day.

with the stak or lomax...everything would pretty much be a bolt in deal...but have an initial higher cost.....without much modification to the rest of the buggy...so it may just be a wash......

Lomax setup looks good. You could always add the doubler later if the 3:1 reduction wasn't enough.
so...is the final crawl ratio's the same ????
or does the doubler win out in overall reduction ratios???

Doubler has a 4:1 reduction, Lomax 3:1, Atlas varies but can be much lower, looks like black box is 5.44:1.
what say the brotherhood ????
Click to expand...

Seems to me like the only true bolt in is going to be the Lomax. Black Box bolts in between tranny and Tcase. Isn't that going to change the location of the tcase (ie..you will end up moving crossmember and drive shafts change)? Don't know about the Atlas, appears to be a good system with a lot of low range options. Seems like it needs to be supported.

Doubler with the 4:1 reduction is an awesome upgrade compared to a T350/NP205. Any way you go, the gearing will be great.
 
A lot depends on what type of trails you run, and thus what type of gearing you need.

The trouble with the 4 speed Atlas is you really don't have 4 usable gears in them. One option gives you a 2.0 and 2.72 that really aren't far enough part to make it worth it (just shift the trans from 1st to 2nd for the same effect), but a usable 5.4 low range for technical crawling. The other gives you the 2.72 and 3.8 which are far enough part to be different but not a huge difference, and then a completely impractical 10:1 (a guy in our club has this and the only time he has ever used it was just to try it out).

It just seems like most people forget you can shift the transmission to get different gears verus only thinking of 1st gear in the trans and thinking you have to shift t-case gears. A single speed t-case with a fairly low 1st gear/low range combo and just shift to 2nd, 3rd, or higher in the trans is you need more wheel speed.
 
6.2Blazer said:
A lot depends on what type of trails you run, and thus what type of gearing you need.

It just seems like most people forget you can shift the transmission to get different gears verus only thinking of 1st gear in the trans and thinking you have to shift t-case gears. A single speed t-case with a fairly low 1st gear/low range combo and just shift to 2nd, 3rd, or higher in the trans is you need more wheel speed.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. I will be running a beefed auto tranny with a huge cooler so I will just let it snap through the gears under some throttle if I want some more wheel speed... Not so sure I would have chosen the 5:1 low with a manual. Probably would have went 4.3:1 or 3.8:1 depending on axle gearing and what manual trans.
 
Adventurous 4x4 said:
I beg to differ on the proof of the Atlas. Look at how many are used in comp crawlers and racers. As far as the availability of the Atlas 4spd, they are close to being back in production.
Click to expand...

Problem with comp crawlers and racers is the weight. How heavy is your full sized versus how much does a comp crawler or racer weigh? Yeah, they work well in the lighter rigs but, I don't think their track record will hold up to our full sizes.

LT.
 
Originally Posted by wasted wages
I have looked into NWF/offroad design doublers...
Pros: cheap, stupid strong, three low range options
Cons: requires sourcing your own t-cases (we can do the whole setup complete and it's still significantly cheaper than a two speed Atlas)

You don't need to rebuild everything in the doubler setup if what you get is in good shape.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wasted wages
And the Stak / Lowmax boxes....

The Stak is a pretty strong competitor for the Atlas if they get their reliability issues figured out.


There are all kinds of gearing options with the Stak and Atlas, that really depends on what you want and how much you want to spend.


Really this all depends on what you want and how much you want to spend. __________________
Click to expand...




Thanks to everyone that responded....looks like the stak and atlas have a lot of issues...

Chris....pm sent.
 
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