Dual Battery Diagram w/ACR, Marine Switch, and Solenoid

[mini_mull]

Hey, I was just wondering if all the electrical gurus, *cough* ryoken or anyone else with some vehicle electrical experience could point out any mistakes, possible problems, or better solutions for the following diagram.

I'm an electrical noob, but I've done some research so hopefully I'm not too far off . I started working on this because I found the Solenoid I wanted on Ebay for almost 1/2 of the cheapest normal retail, but I'd like to figure out my system in detail before buying any other components. Any advice?

 

[ryoken]

nice Christie....

That'll work.... Couple of things for you to consider...

You might wanna run the alternator and starter wires to the "common" lug of the battery switch... This will give you the capability to run/start off 1, 2 or common without "having" to use your emergency start to parellel the system.. As of now, you can only do that off the 1 and common position..

The ACR really kinda negates this, but it will give you more redundancy...

Also, keep in mind your winch and it's cable... big stuff... I would run that right to the battery switch, unless that positive buss is going to have a big lug feed from the bat switch, then you could just run it where that feed is for the buss..

But personally, I'd run it right to the #2 lug of the bat switch. heavy draw there, best to keep that to it's own aux battery.. Not that you can't run it on the "common" part of the system, but with it to the aux side #2, you can still run it on the "common" side, parelleled, with the bat switch in "all" or hitting the emergency start switch.. hooked to 2 will keep that isolated if you want it to be..

There are lots of ways to do this... You could also run your int and ext aux systems that way, off of #2, but all of this is just different options, what you have there WILL work...

Since it looks like you'll have your cab feed fed from your pos buss now, you should strongly consider another solenoid as a remote start solenoid.. Your already pulling your cab power from a source other than the starter and it's fusable links (which btw, that cab feed will now need a fuse), so your 1/2 way there.... It's a nice hot start mod, etc.. basically your just moving the "common" lug of the bat switch.. jumper from the common to the solenoid (take your constant power aka pos buss supply to that "in" side of the solenoid or you leave it on the bat switch common lug) than your main cable to the starter from the "out" side, with your ignition trigger activating the solenoid...

keep in mind, that your cab runs off 2 feeds, one that originates at the starter, fusable linked to the junction block above the booster on the firewall before it hits the fuse panel.. The other, which feeds your ign and headlights is fed from the alternator..

sh*t, gotta run...

 

[mini_mull]

nice Christie....

Since it looks like you'll have your cab feed fed from your pos buss now, you should strongly consider another solenoid as a remote start solenoid.. Your already pulling your cab power from a source other than the starter and it's fusable links (which btw, that cab feed will now need a fuse), so your 1/2 way there.... It's a nice hot start mod, etc.. basically your just moving the "common" lug of the bat switch.. jumper from the common to the solenoid (take your constant power aka pos buss supply to that "in" side of the solenoid or you leave it on the bat switch common lug) than your main cable to the starter from the "out" side, with your ignition trigger activating the solenoid...

keep in mind, that your cab runs off 2 feeds, one that originates at the starter, fusable linked to the junction block above the booster on the firewall before it hits the fuse panel.. The other, which feeds your ign and headlights is fed from the alternator..

sh*t, gotta run...

I think I understand what you're saying here. Basically, I'll still need a 12V constant and a 12V ignition switched supply for the cab, so I can run a solenoid set up with the wire that comes off the starter and goes to the solenoid used as a switch to activate the solenoid for the switched ingition 12V source for the cab fuse panel. Is that correct?

As for the alternator and starter, the reason I ran the them to the first battery is just in case there was ever failure in the switch. This may be a non-issue with these switches, but since I don't have any experince with them I didn't know for sure. I always figure anything that has any function can fail. Of course, since I have the cab running off the switch I guess I'm already relying on it to run. If there ever was a failure I guess I could just move the lugs from the combined stud to one of the battery studs. I guess I'm thinking this out as I type.

Honestly, I had no idea where to put the winch in this kind of system, so I'm glad you chimed in on that subject. Is there any reason to run it off the 2 lug of the battery switch versus just straight to the positive lug of #2 battery, if it is a shorter run?

I haven't worked out exactly where I'm going to stash all this stuff yet. There's no way I can ditch my A/C living in AZ, so space is limited under the hood. I'd like to put battery #2 right next to #1 though, instead of the traditional space on the other side of the core support, just to keep the length of cables down. I moved the radiator overflow to the other side, so I think there's enough room for two batteries on the original side if I make a custom tray. Any ideas on where to stash it all? And how close together can I put stuff? Do I need to worry about arching?

Thanks for all the help Paul, I can't believe everything I've learned about electrical in the last two months.

 

[ryoken]

I think I understand what you're saying here. Basically, I'll still need a 12V constant and a 12V ignition switched supply for the cab, so I can run a solenoid set up with the wire that comes off the starter and goes to the solenoid used as a switch to activate the solenoid for the switched ingition 12V source for the cab fuse panel. Is that correct?

As for the alternator and starter, the reason I ran the them to the first battery is just in case there was ever failure in the switch. This may be a non-issue with these switches, but since I don't have any experince with them I didn't know for sure. I always figure anything that has any function can fail. Of course, since I have the cab running off the switch I guess I'm already relying on it to run. If there ever was a failure I guess I could just move the lugs from the combined stud to one of the battery studs. I guess I'm thinking this out as I type.

Honestly, I had no idea where to put the winch in this kind of system, so I'm glad you chimed in on that subject. Is there any reason to run it off the 2 lug of the battery switch versus just straight to the positive lug of #2 battery, if it is a shorter run?

I haven't worked out exactly where I'm going to stash all this stuff yet. There's no way I can ditch my A/C living in AZ, so space is limited under the hood. I'd like to put battery #2 right next to #1 though, instead of the traditional space on the other side of the core support, just to keep the length of cables down. I moved the radiator overflow to the other side, so I think there's enough room for two batteries on the original side if I make a custom tray. Any ideas on where to stash it all? And how close together can I put stuff? Do I need to worry about arching?

Thanks for all the help Paul, I can't believe everything I've learned about electrical in the last two months.

Trust me, you have a better understanding of this stuff than many do..

you almost lost me with that first paragraph tho, I had to read it twice... the remote (or slave) solenoid isn't there for any "in cab" purpose. it's purpose is to not have constant 12v running down to the starter and to get that cab feed off the starter lug... basically your moving the 1 cab feed from the starter up to that solenoid.. it is strictly to fire off the starter, relocating the cab feed is just a side benefit..

the purple "signal" wire in my diagram is the wire that normally runs down to the "s" terminal on the starter to activate it... now it activates that slave and allows the juice thru the big wire down to the starter...

Then you just jumper the starter like this..

also, both those feeds to the cab are actually constant hots.. the one from the starter is ign fired in the cab, but it is hot going thru the firewall...

good thought on the bat switch failure point, but honestly, in 20 yrs of working on boats, I've never seen 1 go bad, they are pretty impervious... I have no fear of mine failing...

and yes, anything you are going to run to the #1 or #2 lug of the bat switch can be run to the batteries instead.. whichever is the shorter, easier run.. same with your emergency solenoid and acr... you could actually run the acr to each of the posts on your emergency solenoid too... it's just a #1 and #2 circuit.. however it all fits in the truck best.. short runs are best...

no need to worry about arcing, just keep hot lugs away from grounded surfaces.. shrinktubing and/or coating all your hot posts with an anticorrosive when done will help that too, along with protecting them..

shoot me a pic of that side of the compartment and maybe we can figure out best mounting spots....

 

[mini_mull]

It's taken awhile coming, but here's an updated diagram I finally got finished.

What do ya think? I moved the winch cable, moved the starter and alternator to the battery switch, added a solenoid to the starter... Any more suggestions? Did I miss anything?

BTW, I've been watching Ebay, and I picked up two Blue Sea 9012 switches for under $70 each, not bad, huh?

Also, I was wondering whether I should be watching for a battery switch with or without AFD. I thought that would be a good feature, but I was reading a write-up, can't remember where, and it said something about our alternators not being compatable with AFD. I didn't really understand everything it was talking about though. Any info on this?

I'll take some pics of the engine compartment soon, since I do need some help figurung out where to stash all this stuff. Thanks again.

 

[ryoken]

Looks good Kristie..

The only thing I would say is your ground bar causes me concern... Make sure you run your battery ground down to the block or frame and another beefy one from motor to frame...

You can tie in any additional grounds to those connections, a buss bar as pictured, rad support, etc...

as far as I know, the field disconnect should work.. I haven't worried about it or hooked it up... The need to switch banks while running hasn't been something I've found any need to do...

I REALLY want to throw an ACR in mine.. But it isn't a necessity, and other areas of the truck need attention.. I've had an extra 200 amp solenoid laying around for awhile now for a parellel switch, but that too I'll throw in later...

Good deal on those Blue Sea solenoids, very nice product...

 

[Disciples Performance]

ryoken dude wow you really know your stuff... im an apprentice 3rd yr auto tech. and wow car electrical still drives me nutty! what are your tricks for understanding everything so well and being able to explain it so well..? btw im using ur diagrams for my dual battery idea as well haha thanx guys cheers sorry for the off topic.. lol

 

[ryoken]

hey, thanks man, every vert dog has his day...

marine mechanics opened up a whole other perspective on it ages ago.. But before that I was doing auto restoration/collision stuff...

Boats are a huge electrical playground.. Honestly, it's so rediculous how extensive they are it's not funny... Both AC and DC.. I work on boats with washer/dryers, desalinization systems, big drawing electric bow thrusters, generators, you name it..

These are the kinds of places I dwell in daily...

Basically it's a big rv..... and your house combined.. With ummm, some props too!! I do plumbing, hydraulic systems, engines, electrical, vacuum operated systems, refridgeration, cabinetetry, glass, paint, gel, yada, yada...

I do ok, I have too.... Peoples lives depend on it... Just yesterday I finished up a Manual/Automatic Shutdown fire system... That ch*t can't fail... I follow all ABYC standards on all my stuff, or better...

Then throw in the ways boats can sink....

Anyway, thanks for the compliment!

As far as how I go about a thought process, as many have said in here before, the usuals, it's all circuits and how they are combined to create a DC system.... switching, protection, amp loads, etc..

 

[Disciples Performance]

np for the comment ya man thats a crazy setup!!! i was almost thinking of switching and going into marine mechanics more money in it as well but who knows right now haha but def will take what you said into consideration on how the DC is combined together etc.. cheers!

Nick

 

[ryoken]

yeah, feel free to always shoot me a pm on anything...

As far as marine mechanic, eh, not sure I'd wish it on my worst enemy...

I used to bitch about tough things on cars, THEN I got into boats.... My job is frankly, pretty brutal and challenging physically and mentally.. People think Detroit had some bad engineering going on here and there, they ain't got nothing on boat builders!!!

I guess it can be a rewarding career for someone.. We've had a hand-picked, noob 23 yr old "prodegy" straight out of marine school in maine with us for the last 6 months.. We're trying not to kill him...

He's gotten a real kick in the teeth as far as real-world mechanics go.. Smart as a whip, and hanging in there, but his f*ck ups and the battering have him grumbling alot already..

Maybe I'm a tad jaded and have seen and done too much... Not much of a thrill anymore..

Money's ok, but I'll certainly never get rich doing it..

 

[Disciples Performance]

haha i hear ya there my friend, thanks ya ill hit ya up if i ever need some wiring help thats for sure. ya ive seen alot of apprentices mess up alot of things on just regular cars/trucks without boats getting in the picture. When you start to deal with things in water... watch out haha cause if you miss a little bolt or dont torque something properly next thing you know, the whole leg falls off or the prop fires off at like 1000 ft/per second hahaha

 

[mini_mull]

Looks good Kristie..

The only thing I would say is your ground bar causes me concern... Make sure you run your battery ground down to the block or frame and another beefy one from motor to frame...

You can tie in any additional grounds to those connections, a buss bar as pictured, rad support, etc...

Whoops, just a sin of omission, those lines didn't make it from my head to the computer. Thanks.

Disc, you are 100% correct, Paul is the man when it comes to electrical (and other stuff to, ie, fiberglass and paint to name a couple). We are lucky to have him around here, and I'm grateful he's so willing to help out all the time. There's a wealth of knowledge from great guys here on CK5. You should think about becoming a member. It opens even more doors and resources.

 

[ryoken]

 

[nova]

I'm having problem with all this info.. my fault , but it just looks like a flux capacitor should be in there some where. I'm trying to figure a 2-3 battery sys. for my truck and came along this thread. I guess i'll just read it over. hahaha

 

[mini_mull]

Alright, time to start pinning down materials. What would you pick and why?
1. Marine vs top post terminals vs side post terminals
2. DIY vs Custom order
3. crimpers...

at $75 versus

at $25
4. Welding cable vs SAE SGT battery cable vs marine


Also, have any good places to shop for this kind of stuff. I've found waytek which is great for prices, but buying everything in just doesn't work when it's 100 ft of 2/0 GA cable.

 

[ryoken]

I prefer studded posts like the marines offer for any automotive application or lower draw application... like these..

For huge draw diesels, that draw 500, 600 amps on cranking, I prefer top posts, more contact area... But I prefer the stud mounts for anything else due to their simplicity, durability and longlife..

I never prefer sidemounts, only if space requires them...

Now, crimping, and my thoughts on it... ABYC requires that I crimp all marine battery connections... They want a mechanical connection, mainly due to the heat big drawing diesels can generate.. Sometimes I crimp and solder....

For automotive, I much prefer just soldering, thats how all mine are done.. It's cheap, ensures an awesome connection, and helps with corrosion, tad more time consuming tho... solder, lugs and a propane torch..

the top one you pictured is similar to what we use at work with color indexed lugs. The hammer/smash one I haven't used in years, I suppose it'd get you by... But the top one will give you a superior crimp as it crushes on multiple sides...

As for cable, you know my thoughts.. IMO tinned marine is the way to go over welding cable.. But welding cable is definitely prefered over low strand, copper, Autozone stuff..


http://www.delcity.net/ is another choice that doesn't have minimums iirc...

one other thing Kristie.... I noticed on your ground revision... Your a little overkill. which is fine on a ground system, but you can simplify it by just grounding one battery to the other, than run that one to the frame or block, then a jumper from that spot over to the frame or block, whichever is needed...

 

[mini_mull]

Time to dig up this thread, as I'm gathering more parts. I'm thinking about using an 50mm ammo box to house my switches and solenoids, since getting my hands on some fg composite seems more difficult than I thought. Anyone object? Also, I was rereading the install info on the ACR and realized it already has a provision for an emergency start combiner, so I can cut out my extra solenoid. Here's a revised plan.

Let me know if I should change anything. I'm order 2/0 AWG marine cable with solder slugs, HD tinned copper lugs, and adhesive heat shrink. I'll be selling that extra solenoid, if anyone is interested PM me.

 

[ryoken]

forgot the acr had that... only thing i see is the remote start solenoid is labeled wrong.. the trigger will be fused power thru the ign switch to the solenoid. and a seperate grd for the solenoid.. not the solenoid being grded thru the switch...

ammo can sounds like a great idea... be aware tho, that stuff takes up some room.. acr, slave, relays, the wiring, etc fills up space quick.. i'd get the biggest can you can fit reasonable... maybe relocate your overflow bottle or something..

also keep in mind, that your casing will be grded... mines isolated due to the glass.. you may find this helpful..... or not.. when playing with + stuff in there.

I had suggested to Ben that it might be wise to cover the inside walls with something.. maybe thin sheet rubber, contact cemented in, to help aleviate any accidental fireworks...

 

[mini_mull]

Whoops, fixed that. To tell you the truth, I just recently came to understand how the remote solenoid works. Now it seems so simple, but for some reason I didn't put it together before. Anyways, I ordered some ammo cans to try out, but I would really love to still do fiberglass esp if I have a hard time fitting everything. I'm going to make some more calls come Monday to look for composite FG local, and if that doesn't work out, maybe I'll just have to make a mold and do it the old fashioned way. It'd probably by good practice for the interior audio pieces I want to make, since it wouldn't have to be as polished looking, being under the hood. I put in my order for all components to make the dual battery cables, alt cable, grds, etc. Man, that stuff add up quick. I also ordered some battery trays from summit. I already moved my overflow to the drivers side awhile ago, so I think I can fit 2 optimas perpendicular to the stock tray bolted to the top of it, and then put the electrical box on top of the inner fender well where the stock overflow was. Did that make sense? Sound like a good plan? With the system set up this way, is there anything bad about running two different batteries, different ages? I already have a red top optima that's still good, but I'd like to run a yellow top for battery 2 unless there's a disadvantage.

 

[ryoken]

With the system set up this way, is there anything bad about running two different batteries, different ages? I already have a red top optima that's still good, but I'd like to run a yellow top for battery 2 unless there's a disadvantage.

You should have no probs running 2 different batteries with the ACR due to the way they sense and charge.. The only time I could see an issue would be if you left the marine switch in the "all" position for an extended period of time...

I'm thinking of finally getting my ACR this week...

I also ordered some battery trays from summit. I already moved my overflow to the drivers side awhile ago, so I think I can fit 2 optimas perpendicular to the stock tray bolted to the top of it, and then put the electrical box on top of the inner fender well where the stock overflow was. Did that make sense? Sound like a good plan?

I've seen a few people in here running 2 batteries in that corner.. How they where trayed, don't remember.. I would just say that, don't underestimate the amount of abuse batteries will put on a mounting configuration..

An overbuilt unit is what I like to see... a custom single tray that fits both.. maybe some angle iron, sheetsteel and strategic bracing.. I suppose 2 stockish trays could be configured to work, I just worry about the strength.. Just keep that in mind when configuring the Summit trays...

but I would really love to still do fiberglass esp if I have a hard time fitting everything. I'm going to make some more calls come Monday to look for composite FG local, and if that doesn't work out, maybe I'll just have to make a mold and do it the old fashioned way. It'd probably by good practice for the interior audio pieces I want to make, since it wouldn't have to be as polished looking, being under the hood.

Sorry to hear your having difficulty in finding a good source... Sometimes I forget how pricey it can be for the average "Sally" off the street.. My guy tends to hook me up pretty good... I buy lots of scrap from him at good prices.. Tho I'm about to order a 4" x 8", so that may smack me back to reality some.. Good thing is, I just sold some to work.. Finally got the marina into using it.. Sometimes it's a huge ordeal dragging them into the 21st century... So hopefully scraps will be even more prevelent and I can get even better deals down the road..

As for handlaying a box, pm me, if the ammo cans don't look like they'll work... It'll still be way more work than slapping a can in there, but I have an easy way to do box molds...

I put in my order for all components to make the dual battery cables, alt cable, grds, etc. Man, that stuff add up quick.

I get much of my wiring stuff thru work at great to free prices... Where I really felt it was buying 20 of my rocker breakers for the glove panel, etc.. Thats $200 to the average consumer, $120ish for me..