CK5
Register an account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members.

Duramax or Cummins!?

max 02

Roll the dice…
 Premium
GMOTM Winner
Joined
Sep 29, 2009
Posts
13,655
Reaction score
9,172
Location
Eckville Alberta Canada
Opinions welcome!
2008 and up. No debate on 1/2 tons or gas trucks... I don’t care!

What is more reliable, cheaper to maintain, delete. What years are the best for both?

@ZooMad75 I know you don’t love diesels but I know you’re job and would love to know your take on the Duramax 08 and up Headgaskets and cp4 or electric problems.
 
Opinions welcome!
2008 and up. No debate on 1/2 tons or gas trucks... I don’t care!

What is more reliable, cheaper to maintain, delete. What years are the best for both?

@ZooMad75 I know you don’t love diesels but I know you’re job and would love to know your take on the Duramax 08 and up Headgaskets and cp4 or electric problems.
I love diesels. They make good money for the shop. Regardless of the manufacturer too.

'08 and up is in the early emissions era. So there is some crap to deal with, most will delete since they are all outside of warranty now.

In stock form that generation of dmax is not normally known to us at our shop to be a killer of head gaskets. Key point being stock. Modded up stuff don't come in all that often to most dealers because diesel bros do go that way. Lately I've turned the modified ones away because of the nightmare amateur tuners create when they are shutting off the emissions crap and then tuning for bigger power. Plus I don't want to have to pay to get one re-tuned because someone hid the mods well and avoided telling us it got done and we end up loading new stock cal files in and completely screwing the truck over. $1600 later....

Injection pumps on those have not been regular failure points, again in stock form.

Electrical is a crapshoot. Depending on where the truck has been, who's messed with it (mods) and your typical previous owner BS that any truck gets exposed too. '08 is the first full year of the GMT 900 platform for the hd stuff. Pretty robust system that built up from the 800 trucks but not as heavily networked as later trucks. 900 trucks were the first trucks to get chipped keys for the security system. Something the cars had for years before it. Easy to relearn new keys as long as you have a learned key to start from. Stock radios are vin specific. Anybody that tries to sell you the uplevel radio or nav unit to upgrade a lesser unit is taking your money and selling you a very expensive door stop. I've read the crap on line on how to fake it, had people swear we should be able to do it and failed each time even though I warned them it cant be done. Dealers can't overwrite a new vin on top of an existing vin programmed into a radio. Only a handful of ac delco exchange centers can wipe a vin off and then when we install it we have one shot to program a vin in. Besides, the factory nav systems suck by today's standards. It's like 16bit nintendo vs modern gaming systems. Plus the nav disc required to operate it is $300. You could have a serious alpine or kenwood deck for the cost of the nav disc alone plus the cost of the upgraded stock deck would be good money to upgrade the factory speakers.

900 trucks are ok. The 800 trucks had more durable interiors and I like them better. The K2xx trucks that came out in '14 (1500) and '15(hd) are better but more complex for sure.

Keep in mind like any used diesel stay away from the diesel bro type stuff. If you catch a whiff it's been modded, walk away. Holes in the dash for previously installed tuners/display unit, extra gauges, sewer pipe sized exhaust are just some of the red flags. If it's been modded you can bet some flat billed diesel trucker has been driving it like it was stolen. You will end up dealing with the crap they started.

Look for the typical old man 5th wheel rv pulling truck. Clean, well maintained and never abused. Trust me they are out there. We get one on trade every couple of months. When they come in they leave just as quickly.
 
I love diesels. They make good money for the shop. Regardless of the manufacturer too.

'08 and up is in the early emissions era. So there is some crap to deal with, most will delete since they are all outside of warranty now.

In stock form that generation of dmax is not normally known to us at our shop to be a killer of head gaskets. Key point being stock. Modded up stuff don't come in all that often to most dealers because diesel bros do go that way. Lately I've turned the modified ones away because of the nightmare amateur tuners create when they are shutting off the emissions crap and then tuning for bigger power. Plus I don't want to have to pay to get one re-tuned because someone hid the mods well and avoided telling us it got done and we end up loading new stock cal files in and completely screwing the truck over. $1600 later....

Injection pumps on those have not been regular failure points, again in stock form.

Electrical is a crapshoot. Depending on where the truck has been, who's messed with it (mods) and your typical previous owner BS that any truck gets exposed too. '08 is the first full year of the GMT 900 platform for the hd stuff. Pretty robust system that built up from the 800 trucks but not as heavily networked as later trucks. 900 trucks were the first trucks to get chipped keys for the security system. Something the cars had for years before it. Easy to relearn new keys as long as you have a learned key to start from. Stock radios are vin specific. Anybody that tries to sell you the uplevel radio or nav unit to upgrade a lesser unit is taking your money and selling you a very expensive door stop. I've read the crap on line on how to fake it, had people swear we should be able to do it and failed each time even though I warned them it cant be done. Dealers can't overwrite a new vin on top of an existing vin programmed into a radio. Only a handful of ac delco exchange centers can wipe a vin off and then when we install it we have one shot to program a vin in. Besides, the factory nav systems suck by today's standards. It's like 16bit nintendo vs modern gaming systems. Plus the nav disc required to operate it is $300. You could have a serious alpine or kenwood deck for the cost of the nav disc alone plus the cost of the upgraded stock deck would be good money to upgrade the factory speakers.

900 trucks are ok. The 800 trucks had more durable interiors and I like them better. The K2xx trucks that came out in '14 (1500) and '15(hd) are better but more complex for sure.

Keep in mind like any used diesel stay away from the diesel bro type stuff. If you catch a whiff it's been modded, walk away. Holes in the dash for previously installed tuners/display unit, extra gauges, sewer pipe sized exhaust are just some of the red flags. If it's been modded you can bet some flat billed diesel trucker has been driving it like it was stolen. You will end up dealing with the crap they started.

Look for the typical old man 5th wheel rv pulling truck. Clean, well maintained and never abused. Trust me they are out there. We get one on trade every couple of months. When they come in they leave just as quickly.

Thank you Rob! That is what we are looking for... old man truck.
We recently inherited my wife’s 2012 duramax from her dad, old man truck... stock!
Love it!
My son is looking for a replacement for his old 01 Duramax.
 
Ought to make this a sticky...
 
I've had two cummins, an 01 and 06, my parents have had two duramax's, an 03 and 15, and my bil has a 15 cummins. All have gone well over a 150k miles and a few over 200k miles without anything major engine wise. The 03 dmax needed injectors at about 160k. The 15 has 50k miles and counting. The BIL's cummins has 150k and counting. All were/are stock. Point of this is that as long as they are stock, you'll never have issues with the engines. The trucks will fall apart before the engines and transmissions do. Maintenance isn't cheap on any of them though. 15qt oil changes are expensive. Fuel filters are very important and should be changed about every oil change. If you get a truck that has DEF that's another added maintenance expense every 6-10k miles. There is nothing cheap to maintaining a diesel. There is nothing cheap to fixing a diesel.

As for modifying one, a tune and delete (if you can find them), and they'll hold their own against most sports cars out there. Ridiculous the amount of power a modern diesel can produce with stock parts.
 
Something I have been seeing more and more of lately.
I have a good friend who owns a wrecker service.
One of the few truly honest ones around here.
Recently a good friend of ours closed his repair shop and went to work for a private company full time. He did all my repairs that I did not do myself, and worked on everything my friend drove.
We knew a couple of top notch mechanics who were either out of work due to another closing, or wanting to work closer to home, so my friend opened a repair shop.
Of course, just as he got it going, the hurricane came along and totally destroyed it.
He is in a rented building now, while working on a new shop. When I get bored, I go down and hang. Of course, I also keep the computer system and other electronic stuff going.

I don't know if this is a nation wide problem or more local. But we are starting to see some major problems with diesels. So far, I have not heard of a Cummings, but a couple of Duramax have bit the dust. Plus one of his wreckers.
The engines are not damaged, but it takes about $4K to get them back on the road.
If you do it right.
If you try to fix them on the cheap, it might cost as much as 7 or 8.
From what we can find out, its the Bosch injector pumps. The pumps themselves are fine, but the fuel sold these days does not meet Bosch standards for lubricity, and maybe other additives.
The pumps do fine anywhere from about 80 to 120K, some much more. But sooner or later they start to eat themselves. They don't stop working, you just start getting loss of power, misfires, hard starting.
But, by that time the damage is done.
One fast and quick check is usually to pull the fuel regulator apart. If you see fine metal particles or shavings, start checking your warranty. If you are lucky, you are still under the 100K warranty.
My friend's Ford wrecker had had a different failure of the injector pump, and Ford put in a new one which extended the warranty.
The new pump started shedding at about 110K. But he was able to get them to cover the damage.

The only true fix, is a new injector pump complete, new lines from the pump to the injectors, along with new injectors. If the truck has a lift pump in the tank, some do and some don't, it has to be replaced, and the tank removed from the truck and steam cleaned.
The lines between the engine and tank can usually be flushed clean. Of course any and all fuel filters have to be replaced and the mounts flushed.
As soon as he realized what was going on, my friend started putting additives in his fuel whenever he fueled up any of his wreckers.
He keeps a bottle of additive in the trucks, and the driver always adds some when he fuels up.
That seems to be the ticket.
He has one wrecker with 450K on the clock.
I'm not a diesel guy, everything I run is gas except for my Mahindra tractor, and when it was running, my big genset.
When I filled the 250 gallon tank for the genset, I would always pour in a quart of RPM Delo400 just before the new fuel went in.
An old diesel guy told me that, and I never had any injector or pump problems.
In my Mahindra, I add an ounce or so of water-cooled 2 Cycle oil when I filled the 5 gallon can. If I was out of the oil, I would add the recommended amount of Standyne lubricity improver.
Not sure what brand of injector pump it has. The motor is made by Mitsubishi, so you would expect it to be a Japanese maker, but Germany and Japan were allies during the war, so..........
One of the local county trucks just had that happen, and the head of the local county yard discussed with my friend and myself about putting some kind of additives in the tank at the county fuel depot.
There are many diesels that fuel up there, including school buses, ambulances, dump trucks, etc.
I suggested looking into some kind of injector system that adds the additive into the line as it flows into the truck.
I know they make them, I have seen them. Adding it into the tank would be fine if you emptied the tank each time. But you don't, and you need to know how much fuel is about to be added in order to determine how much additive to put in when topping the tank off.
An injection system would not care, it would add the correct amount per amount of fuel dispensed.
 
The feds mandated the sulfur out of the diesel fuel back in 2007 for emissions reasons. This required all diesel manufacturers to redesign the injection pump systems to live without the much-needed sulfur for lubricity. I'm no engineer so I don't know what they did to facilitate the loss of lubricity, but they are different from the earlier versions for sure. It's also why if you own a 2007 or earlier diesel, dirtymax, Cummins, powersmoke or even the old GM 6.5/6.2 oil burners, you best be adding something to your fuel to get the lubricity back. Every tank.

Post 2008 dirtymax pumps have been pretty solid as far as what we have seen at our shop. We aren't replacing them all the time. We do replace them time to time, but it's not a common thing for us to see. We've got two C4500 meduim duty roll back wreckers at the shop. One is a 2004 LB7 Duramax, the other is a 2009 with an LMM Duramax. The 2004 has 350,000 miles. We've had to replace the engine twice due to glow plug failure. The Injectors got replaced under the special coverage for the leaky Bosch injectors the LB7's were known for. We have not had any other issues with the injection system. The 2009 has 150,000 miles and yet to have any issues with the injection system.

Modern pumps can't live forever. Hell, no pump can live forever. Adding anything to the tank is going to extend the life for sure, but it won't prevent it from getting worn.
 
Not sure what years these are, but I think they were newer than that. I'll check around and see. I know these were considered unexpected failures due to the age and mileage.
From what I can tell, its not a case of wear exactly. I could understand a pump getting worn and not performing like it should. These just start shedding large amounts of metal into the fuel system fairly suddenly. Or at least it seems suddenly. The GMs that did not have a lift pump in the tank, causing the injector pump to suck it, seemed to go bad more quickly.
I don't have the details I would usually have when posting stuff here, I just have overheard them having to tell customers the bad news and advising them to see if they could get it covered under a factory warranty or some kind of recall.
 
Ok to be clear and not being a smartass in anyway. We have been playing the diesel truck game for 20 years. I know all the faults and expensive repairs very well! Lol!

We are GM people. What I wanted to know is. Would a Dodge be a better truck for lasting the long haul. Or stick with a GM?

We have 6 Duramaxes on our farm from every year 2001 to 2012 and one 01 Dodge Cummins.
Stock is the only way to compare. God only knows what can happen after it has been Focked with? And I don’t want a Ifs/solid axle debate. Ifs is fine for the intended use of theses trucks.

Excellent reply’s guys and thank you!
 
Any little water in the fuel will destroy a modern common rail diesel in short order. Same with any little amount of dirt. That’s why fuel filters are so important on these trucks. I think some of them even come with a separate water separator these days.
 
Ok to be clear and not being a smartass in anyway. We have been playing the diesel truck game for 20 years. I know all the faults and expensive repairs very well! Lol!

We are GM people. What I wanted to know is. Would a Dodge be a better truck for lasting the long haul. Or stick with a GM?

We have 6 Duramaxes on our farm from every year 2001 to 2012 and one 01 Dodge Cummins.
Stock is the only way to compare. God only knows what can happen after it has been Focked with? And I don’t want a Ifs/solid axle debate. Ifs is fine for the intended use of theses trucks.

Excellent reply’s guys and thank you!

I’ve loved every dodge I’ve ever owned, but the Chevy body holds up better. Interior and exterior.
 
Maybe I missed it, why specifically’08 and newer?
 
The feds mandated the sulfur out of the diesel fuel back in 2007 for emissions reasons. This required all diesel manufacturers to redesign the injection pump systems to live without the much-needed sulfur for lubricity. I'm no engineer so I don't know what they did to facilitate the loss of lubricity, but they are different from the earlier versions for sure. It's also why if you own a 2007 or earlier diesel, dirtymax, Cummins, powersmoke or even the old GM 6.5/6.2 oil burners, you best be adding something to your fuel to get the lubricity back. Every tank.

Post 2008 dirtymax pumps have been pretty solid as far as what we have seen at our shop. We aren't replacing them all the time. We do replace them time to time, but it's not a common thing for us to see. We've got two C4500 meduim duty roll back wreckers at the shop. One is a 2004 LB7 Duramax, the other is a 2009 with an LMM Duramax. The 2004 has 350,000 miles. We've had to replace the engine twice due to glow plug failure. The Injectors got replaced under the special coverage for the leaky Bosch injectors the LB7's were known for. We have not had any other issues with the injection system. The 2009 has 150,000 miles and yet to have any issues with the injection system.

Modern pumps can't live forever. Hell, no pump can live forever. Adding anything to the tank is going to extend the life for sure, but it won't prevent it from getting worn.
Not sure what years these are, but I think they were newer than that. I'll check around and see. I know these were considered unexpected failures due to the age and mileage.
From what I can tell, its not a case of wear exactly. I could understand a pump getting worn and not performing like it should. These just start shedding large amounts of metal into the fuel system fairly suddenly. Or at least it seems suddenly. The GMs that did not have a lift pump in the tank, causing the injector pump to suck it, seemed to go bad more quickly.
I don't have the details I would usually have when posting stuff here, I just have overheard them having to tell customers the bad news and advising them to see if they could get it covered under a factory warranty or some kind of recall.

It’s the 2011 and up pumps that fordum is thinking of. It’s the Bosch cp4.2 . It is also in the Fords. The earlier cp3 is way more durable. Another benefit of the cp3 is if it does fail, it just stops pumping. The 4.2 goes bad and continues to pump the entire Fuel system full of metal ruining all of it $$$$. I run an airdog and power service to hopefully keep it alive. Someday I would like to do a cp3 conversion.
 
I have heard of wiring problems with Chrysler products. Even saw a pallet of warranty wiring harnesses at the dealership where my buddy works. I know that GM isn't perfect, but I have heard fewer problem stories when compared to the other brand. That would steer me clear. You can't get far anymore without a working electrical harness. Some of the other problems that a buddy has told me about with starting and charging systems. Nope, I wouldn't go with a Cummins in Dodge.
I know a several guys with '08 and newer D-max trucks. None of them have many problems. One is ex-oilfield, and still doesn't get good maintenance. He goes across the state on a moment's notice often.
 
I own a early 07 Duramax, work at a dodge dealer so there’s that. Not sure what the harness issue @6872xtc id referring to , 13 and up Cummins do have to fuel water separates , if you go for the Cummins they have to trans options on the 3500 versions the Aisin is the heavy duty trans and is pretty bulletproof.
The 6.7 came out mid year 07 early 6.7 had turbo issues mostly due to soot build up.
If I were to get a newer one I would delete it and put a tune in it just to make it run without the egr and after treatment system.not to make more power.
 
What additive should I use in my 2002 7.3 Powerstroke? Sorry for the hi-jack, but there seems to be tons of diesel educated folks in here. This is my first one.
 
Thanks @Fastereddie , that sounds exactly like what I was trying to say. I don't normally post warnings without having all the facts, but I knew this was a big problem from all the discussions I had been hearing, and wanted to get it out.
Also knew it was a problem across brands.
The wrecker my friend was able to get fixed under warranty was a Ford, and there is a Chevy in the shop now waiting on parts for the same problem.
As for the additive question from @Desert_K5, add me to the list. I did a lot of research on that, here and other places, and of all the brands and ideas I heard, surprisingly enough the one most often mentioned was water-cooled two cycle oil.
As most of you know there are two general types of two cycle oil. Air cooled and water cooled. Referring to the engines they run in, of course.
Generally, air cooled engines such as weed eaters, run much hotter than water cooled such as outboards. Therefore water cooled oil is supposedly designed to burn off clean at lower temps.
And Lord knows, diesel engines don't need any more carbon buildup or soot.

Of course, being in Fl, I am mostly looking for lube quality with some cleaning rather than the antigel that folks farther North need.
It did get to the low 20s the last two nights though......
My only reason for choosing Stanadyne, was the fact that they are a "name" when it comes to diesel stuff. And of their products, I just grabbed the one on the shelf that said it helped with lubricity.
 
Top Bottom