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Flat tappet Cam, oil selection

K

Kp

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Enigne is a 454(mark IV), with about 3000 miles on it.
I have done 2 oil changes since the rebuild, one after about 200 miles, and 1 after about 1500 miles.
I had pretty much decided that I was going to go to synthetic at my next oil change, (royal purple FWIW), but during all my research on oils, I found out about the EPA changes to most conventional oils, that made them undesireable for flat tappet style cams.
Unfortunately, I havent found any ifo that says whether or not synthetics are any better??
I know that people were recommending Rotella T for flat tappets, but i also heard that they too are removing the additives that make them desirable for use with the FT cams. I dont know if thats already happened or not though?
I was at wally world, and I looked at a few labels, but they didnt really tell me anything.
What does everyone think about the best type of oil for an enigne with a FT cam?
 
Kp said:
Enigne is a 454(mark IV), with about 3000 miles on it.
I have done 2 oil changes since the rebuild, one after about 200 miles, and 1 after about 1500 miles.
I had pretty much decided that I was going to go to synthetic at my next oil change, (royal purple FWIW), but during all my research on oils, I found out about the EPA changes to most conventional oils, that made them undesireable for flat tappet style cams.
Unfortunately, I havent found any ifo that says whether or not synthetics are any better??
I know that people were recommending Rotella T for flat tappets, but i also heard that they too are removing the additives that make them desirable for use with the FT cams. I dont know if thats already happened or not though?
I was at wally world, and I looked at a few labels, but they didnt really tell me anything.
What does everyone think about the best type of oil for an enigne with a FT cam?
Click to expand...

To answer your question, the EPA changes for diesel took effect January 1st, 2007..if you are buying diesel oil , and see the designation " CJ - 4 " on the label, what you have there is an oil with reduced amounts of sulfur, zinc & phosohorus. If you see " CI - 4" on the label, ( there is still some out there on the shelves ), that oil has a higher amount of zinc, sulfur & phosphorus. These are / were your anti wear, & anti scuff ingredients.

Passenger car oils have had to meet GF - 4 specs, ( basically the same as CJ-4 ) for a couple of years now.. GF- 5 is next, coming in 2009.

To answer your other question, these changes affect synthetic oils too..the only way out is to ask for a full zinc oil if you are married to the idea of having it.. some companies have it, most don't anymore, depending on the size of the company.

I've also recently read ( haven't had the chance to verify ) that the GM EOS zinc additive has been discontinued.. maybe a GM tech can weigh in.


To answer the question of an oil recommendation:

We can make you something that's ashless ( containing no zinc, phosphorus or sulfur), that will outperform synthetics, in terms of anti wear & anti shear capabilities..
 
Make me something? Like a custom blend huh?
That sounds cool, but in the long run, I'd like to be able to use something thats on the shelf.
Thats one of the reasons I was leaning towards the Royal Purple synth, because it is available off the shelf at several retailers in my area.
I know there are others on here with FT cams in their rigs, am I worrying too much about nothing?
 
Kp said:
Make me something? Like a custom blend huh?
That sounds cool, but in the long run, I'd like to be able to use something thats on the shelf.
Thats one of the reasons I was leaning towards the Royal Purple synth, because it is available off the shelf at several retailers in my area.
I know there are others on here with FT cams in their rigs, am I worrying too much about nothing?
Click to expand...

yep, a custom blend, depending on application..

anyway, I wouldn't call it worrying over nothing.. Zinc, Phosphorus, and Sulfur are what's known as high pressure additives.. they come into play as a last line of defense when the base oil has absorbed as much heat as it can, and you lose the boundary layer of oil lubrication for a moment.

These additives deplete over time as the oil is exposed to combustion temps, and they are exhausted out, which is why the EPA is reducing the amount you start with.

How much this will affect you depends on a few different things..if you spend lots of time towing, for example, or if you spend too much time at the engines redline, ( not likely in your case, I'm sure ) you're asking the oil to work harder, and it's more likely that you'll need those additives, and a failure could come shortly.. otherwise, you'll just wear out over time..

the other factor affecting wear rates is the base oils ability to hold the additives in suspension when exposed to high temperatures ( a weakness of PAO / ester oils ), so even if you have the zinc, it doesn't do you any good if it's all in your oil pan after a thousand miles.

Here's what I would do, if I were you.. if you buy an over the counter synthetic, have the oil analyzed every 3 thousand miles, before you jump on any extended drain interval..be sure you are getting what you are paying for. Otherwise, if you stay with conventional, dump it every two thousand.
 
If the engine is stock already broke in I would not worry about if the oil has zinc in it or not unless you are racing it or putting heavy loads on it. Any good quality oil and regular 2-3k oil changes should protect your cam.
If you use multi Vis oils. Synthetic are better because they dont have the polymers that dino oils have and dont break down as fast.
If you are worried about zinc, sulpher, and other high pressure additives use "Not for street use" Valvoline racing oil. Also oil additives like Red STP and BG MOA have zinc .
EOS has been discontinued in July 07..............But GM changed the name to "Assembly lube" and you can still buy it.
Also all cam manufactures sell cam break in oil additives that are high in zinc.
IMHO for a stock or mild engine a good syn oil should be fine. But if i were running a performance flat tappet cam with heavy springs I would want to run some kind of EP additive.
 
when I got my new comp cam the info provided said to use either rotella or the additive for the break in period but after that it was not needed. I still run rotella but mostly cause its good oil and thats what Ive always used.
 
4by4bygod said:
To answer your question, the EPA changes for diesel took effect January 1st, 2007..if you are buying diesel oil , and see the designation " CJ - 4 " on the label, what you have there is an oil with reduced amounts of sulfur, zinc & phosohorus. If you see " CI - 4" on the label, ( there is still some out there on the shelves ), that oil has a higher amount of zinc, sulfur & phosphorus. These are / were your anti wear, & anti scuff ingredients.
Click to expand...

Old thread, but more relevant today than it was when the op posted due to all the emission changes.



So I have been reading up on this today as I'm spending a healthy sum on rebuilding my 400 and want it to last. I had planned on using synthetic oil, but after poking around apparently that's not the best idea for flat tappet cams. Diesel oil was supposed to be better, until 2007. So I'm trying to figure out what to put in my engine.

We've been using Napa brand 15w-40 in our diesels because its cheaper, and I turn them in at 350,000 miles anyway.

Label on the back says "cj-4, cI-4, Ci-4plus, CH-4, Cg-4, CF/Sl." Donut says CI-4 Plus at the bottom. Is this ok to use?
 
I use the oil of my choice (Rotella included) and then add one bottle of this:

Product​
​
​
​
​
: COMP Cams® Engine Break-In Oil
Additive​

Part Number​
​
​
​
​
: #159
Features & Benefits:​

•​
​
​
​
Delivers a specially engineered blend of
extreme pressure break-in additives​

•​
​
​
​
Brings back additives removed from current
off-the-shelf motor oils by EPA regulations​

•​
​
​
​
Added protection during the break-in process
for all engine components​

•​
​
​
​
Compatible with any petroleum, synthetic or
blended motor oils​

•​
​
​
​
Delivers long term benefits with new or​

rebuilt engines through continued usage
 
X2 thats what i use in my 4.0l in the xj. i started doing that after putting alot of cams in at work.
 
chalet2506 said:
Old thread, but more relevant today than it was when the op posted due to all the emission changes.



So I have been reading up on this today as I'm spending a healthy sum on rebuilding my 400 and want it to last. I had planned on using synthetic oil, but after poking around apparently that's not the best idea for flat tappet cams. Diesel oil was supposed to be better, until 2007. So I'm trying to figure out what to put in my engine.

We've been using Napa brand 15w-40 in our diesels because its cheaper, and I turn them in at 350,000 miles anyway.

Label on the back says "cj-4, cI-4, Ci-4plus, CH-4, Cg-4, CF/Sl." Donut says CI-4 Plus at the bottom. Is this ok to use?
Click to expand...

Wow, talk about the wayback machine, LOL.

Your NAPA oil is CJ4, because that's all that's on the shelves now..the other designations on the label are the ones that have been superseded.

You could throw the same oil in your 400, it'll have more zinc and phosphorus in it that the passenger car oils..

If you want a 10/30 passenger car oil, that's fine too.

Whatever you decide, I would still dump it at 3,000 miles. that's a safe window before the additive depletion gets to be an issue.

"dump in" oil additives really don't mix well with the oil, and will just fall into the pan over time..they will also alter the viscosity, and leave deposits when the heat fractures the molecules.
 
chalet2506 said:
So what I am hearing is, after breakin, the new oils work just fine?
Click to expand...

That is correct. The high zinc level is only needed for cam break-in on engines with flat tappet cams (I would keep it in for 500 miles) then you can switch to your favorite brand/weight of oil.
 
chalet2506 said:
So what I am hearing is, after breakin, the new oils work just fine?
Click to expand...

yes, I just wouldn't go beyond three thousand miles on any of it without having it analyzed to tell you how far you can safely take it..thermal breakdown does ugly things to oils anyway, and these new oils have less margin for error compared to the older oils..again, 3k intervals are safe if you don't want to bother with anything.
 
Well, since this is back at the top, I'll update it!
I've got about 9k on that engine now, and have switched to using a synthetic blend oil.
All is well.
It's really funny that this came back up, because I was just thinking about this thread last weekend. During Powerblock they had an ad for new Edelbrock oils with zinc added for flat tappet cams. http://store.edelbrock.com/edelbrock_10w40_zinc_enhanced_oil.aspx
 
Interesting thread. My machinist back in bend told me to run Delo- also a diesel rated oil. Been using it in my truck for over 2 years with very regular oil changes and no issues so far...

What about the oil change interval controversy? Is the 3000 mile deal for real or sales driven. Some guys only change their oil a couple times a year and get well over 200k out of their motors...

And of course if everyone did this, sales of oil would drop and "they" don't want that do they? :dunno:
 
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