Front Driveshaft angularity - Maximum U-joint Angle??

[Greg72]

Thanks for the pics Chaddy!

What is the overall length of the setup? It looks like the first part is angled as it heads away from the xfercase, which is what I'm thinking is a good idea.

Who built it, does it vibrate on the highway (is it a streetable truck?) and dare I ask.....how much will I expect to pay for something similar??

 

[Chaddy]

Thanks for the pics Chaddy!

What is the overall length of the setup? It looks like the first part is angled as it heads away from the xfercase, which is what I'm thinking is a good idea.

Who built it, does it vibrate on the highway (is it a streetable truck?) and dare I ask.....how much will I expect to pay for something similar??

The short piece where the slip and carrier bearing is, is 15 inches, and the bottom piece is 25 inches........... this is with the truck sitting on flat ground. I mocked it all up and had a buddy weld and balance it all up for me. I payed like 4hundred.

 

[Chaddy]

Yes It is angled down away from the t-case.....I mounted the carrier to almost max out the ujoint at the case for more angle.

It was streetable for a couple years before I cut it up. It had no vibes at all.

 

[Hogback Fabrication]

This is all great information and disussion folks, please keep the ideas coming!

Keep in mind that we are talking about the setup for a FRONT D60 axle....so rotating the pumpkin up is not going to happen. This will mess up the caster numbers horribly, and I'm not willing to cut-and-turn the C's (and machine the passenger side spring pad!) to maintain the proper caster settings.

This will be a street & trail truck, so the solution will be required to operate smoothly in both environments.



After reading some of these ideas, I wonder if there is merit to installing the "straight" section with a few degrees of offset in it to lower the height of it before it gets to the carrier bearing...??

THE CALCS:

If I installed a 12" straight section and set it up to drop 4" lower than the front output....I'd be running the u-joints at both ends at the same 8.4 degrees. That would mean that instead of dropping a total of 16 inches (from carrier bearing to D60 yoke), the total distance I'd be dropping down would only be 12"....and the resulting efffective u-joint angle at the pinion would only be 14.1 degrees!!! Quite good. If I set up that 12" section correctly, the u-joints would both be at 8.4 degrees at both ends...so there shouldn't be any vibration or phasing issues.

I need to sip a bit more coffee and re-read all the replies again. Good stuff!

I think that will work perfectly

The CV is necessary to balance the angles IF the pinion is tilted up to a different angle than xfer case output AND first section of d-shaft (from xfer case) is tilted down (rather than run parallel to output shaft), because overall angle between xfer case and pinion wouldn't match. On the other hand, it's a front shaft and he may not care about a little vibration.Just have to keep in mind that 2 single-cardans will only balance out an angle consistently if the output and pinion are parallel(exept for the couple degrees down for torque-up).

Single cardan shafts should run smoothly if the operating angles on each end of the shaft are the same (t-case and pinion don't really matter in this case). If the angle are the same on each side of the first shaft, (from the t-case to pillow block) that piece will not vibrate. If the angles on the second piece are the same (pillow block to pinion), it shouldn't vibrate.

 

[xtrmjoe]

I deciced to get the tom woods offset joints and put them at both ends. It does vobrate above 30 or 40mph but I dont drive this in 4x4 on the street anymore so it was not an issue for me. I got the 1350 yoke for my 208, a spare joint, and the shaft with 2 joints with 12" of travel for nearly half of the soct of the below.
The 1410 cv and/or carrier bearing were way to much $$ for me to justify the expence for me. I was not able to with a clocked case, fit the 1410 cv with out hitting the trans pan.

 

[throttleissues]

Single cardan shafts should run smoothly if the operating angles on each end of the shaft are the same (t-case and pinion don't really matter in this case). If the angle are the same on each side of the first shaft, (from the t-case to pillow block) that piece will not vibrate. If the angles on the second piece are the same (pillow block to pinion), it shouldn't vibrate.

The angles on the active shaft(to diff) will automatically equal themselves out. I was wrong in recommending a CV. According to the Spicer Driveshaft Installation manual, the pinion angle should match the angle of the stationary shaft(xfer case-center bearing) in order to avoid vibration. That is the same as pointing the diff at a CV joint in a single piece d-shaft.

 

[Greg72]

What's the name of that book you're scanning? I'd like to get a clearer shot of the image....maybe there's a .pdf available online somewhere?

Thanks again, these resources are great!


EDIT: Nevermind.....found it with Google in about 1.1 nanoseconds!

http://www2.dana.com/pdf/J3311-1-HVTSS.PDF

 

[UPS]

I read on Tom Woods web site a few years ago that if you have 3 U-joints on the same driveshaft 2 of them have to have the same, or close to the same, angle and the other one has to have almost no angle.

How it was explained is the first U-joint vibrates the shaft. The second U-joint, having the same angle as the first, counters the vibration of the first U-joint. If the third U-joint is angled more than a few degrees it puts a vibration in the shaft.

When I read that I thought of a stock front driveshaft on GM trucks. The 2 joints in the CV-joint have the same angle and the joint on the differential is angled.

My stock 1 ton isn't as smooth with the hubs locked in as it is without them locked.

 

[Greg72]

Does anyone know why the Maximum Angle on the 1410 is listed as a range of 28 - 37 degrees, while all other joints are a single value??? Are there variations in yoke designs that allow for more angularity?

That range is pretty wide. I can certainly design a setup to be less than 37 degrees, but a few of the designs that I would like to try end up with almost 30 degrees of operating angle with 7" - 8" of suspension droop. Just trying to figure out if this can work, or if I need to be a little less aggressive with the designs, to get a smaller angle.

 

[DPI]

Does anyone know why the Maximum Angle on the 1410 is listed as a range of 28 - 37 degrees, while all other joints are a single value??? Are there variations in yoke designs that allow for more angularity?

That range is pretty wide. I can certainly design a setup to be less than 37 degrees, but a few of the designs that I would like to try end up with almost 30 degrees of operating angle with 7" - 8" of suspension droop. Just trying to figure out if this can work, or if I need to be a little less aggressive with the designs, to get a smaller angle.

I think the difference can be attributed to the yokes used, especially the driveshaft yoke. I used one from the driveshaft from a duece and a half. The company the did my driveshaft, Driveshafts Inc., here in Tulsa said it was a rare yoke. I get 37*+ from it on my front driveshaft.

 

[DPI]

Mine runs at close to 19 degrees.

 

[Greg72]

So it's 19 degrees at static ride height, and then up to 37* under droop??

My current mock-up is at 18 degrees static, and almost 34* at 8" of suspension droop (theoretical). Looks like I may be in the ballpark if I choose the yokes properly...

 

[DPI]

So it's 19 degrees at static ride height, and then up to 37* under droop??

My current mock-up is at 18 degrees static, and almost 34* at 8" of suspension droop (theoretical). Looks like I may be in the ballpark if I choose the yokes properly...

To tell you the truth, I have not maxed out the joint at full droop. I doubt I have 8" of droop like yours will. I have dropped the drivers side to the maximum droop, and the shaft will drop 3-4" lower at the pinion yoke. So I am not worried about it hitting the maximum angle at the transfercase yoke.

 

[Greg72]

I posted a few photos in my build thread......HERE

It's Post #222 in case the link doesn't take you directly to it.

Take a look and let me know what you think. It seems like a workable set of angles but I'm not 100% sure yet.