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Gas that can break your engine (long post)

Fordum

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OK, folks. I did a search here and did not find anything about this, so hopefully I'm not just repeating something you already know.

Most of the country has been switched to E-10, or 10% ethanol.
There are several problems with Ethanol, but the two that affect us mostly are phase separation, and solvent action.

Phase separation occurs when the fuel sits up for a while and/or absorbs enough moisture. The Ethanol will absorb moisture right out of the air. When it gets enough, it will settle out of the gas and form a layer with the water on the bottom of the tank. Once this happens, its fairly permanent. You can't remix it. You have to suck out the old and replace it.
This causes several problems.
The water may rust the tank.
If its deep enough, the pickup will suck a water/alcohol mix into the engine. This can cause hydrolocking, or a real lean burn condition since the alcohol does not have as much calorie output as gas.

If your fuel pickup does stay in the gas, there is another problem. The alcohol is used to increase the octane rating. If the alcohol settles out, the octane of the remaining gas will drop several points. This can cause lots of knocking or pre-ignition damage.
.
If you run your truck daily, the phase separation problem will not be likely. But, if you are running a carb and keep finding sludge or strange trash, in the bowl, or you keep having to change fuel filters, the second part of the problem has grabbed you.

Ethanol is a really good solvent. If your truck is fairly new, the hoses and plastic parts that come in contact with the gas can usually handle the alcohol. If its older, the rubber and plastic might be attacked by it.
But even if its not, if it is over a few years old, there is going to be varnish, sludge, and other things in the fuel system.
Which the ethanol will cheerfully dissolve. And then redeposit them in places you don't want.

A friend of mine has an 85 truck with a carb. Despite two fuel filters, when the E10 first hit, his pretty much quit running. It would run rough at half throttle and above, but you could forget about it idling. I pulled the top of the carb off, and there was a bunch of brown sludge in the bowl.
We cleaned it out, the truck ran great. For about a half day.
Then, same problem, same sludge.

Despite changing both fuel filters twice, we just basically had to pull the carb top off about every other day for a week until all the stuff worked its way out of the tank.
Also, if you happen to have an aftermarket tank made of fiberglass that is over a few years old, the ethanol might just dissolve it.

Its a tossup then as to what happens first. The tank splits or collapses, or the dissolved fiberglass resin sticks your valves or coats your piston rings.

If you are using the gas out regularly, the phase separation problem is not likely. But, if the truck sits up for a while, such as a project truck, one that is being repainted or having a major mod done, the phase separation may occur.

Before E10, if you left the gas in the tank too long, it went stale, and might clogs things up a little, but pretty much would not hurt the engine.
Now, trying to start a truck with old E10 could cause major damage. Depending on how much separation has occurred.

The stuff will phase separate over time, but if it absorbs more than a certain amount of water, it will separate quicker. E10 can hold only about .05% at 60 degrees. This is about 3.8 teaspoons per gallon. If more than that gets in, it can PS immediately.
Also, for you folks in cooler climes, as the temp drops, the amount it can hold drops. Which means your truck might crank fine at 60, and not at 40 or below.

The links below are primarily for boats, but it can still happen to a truck.

http://www.fueltestkit.com/ethanol_engine_precautions.html
This one is selling kits, but has good info too.

http://fuelschool.blogspot.com/2009/02/phase-separation-in-ethanol-blended.html

Sorry for the long post.

J.
 
super info and this would explane a lot of problems for some.

i am printing this off and taking it to work.
 
crazy stuff.i hate all this emissions happy stuff that is ruining our old trucks.it was bad enough with getting rid of the lead in our gas and adding all this smog crap that robs horsepower.will a fuel octane booster in the fuel help i wonder?or at least put heat in the tank if its gona sit for awhile.that i believe is alcohol though also so who knows.
 
Heet is right out I'm afraid<G>. Little M.Python there.
But, unfortunately, a lot of our old standbys are worse than useless, they're dangerous. a lot of them have alcohol and will turn a minor problem into real trouble.
If those links don't have info on that, I'll try to post another.

J.
 
Fuel injected engines generally have less trouble than carbs when it comes to the solvent problem. First, because they tend to be newer and cleaner, plus the fuel does not sit still like a carb and the varnish tends to not settle out. But it can still cause big trouble.
And neither one likes getting a big slug of water and alcohol due to PS

J.
 
If you are buying E10, it is labeled as E10. You don't have to run the stuff. That being said, I have been running it for years with absolutely no problems, in either carbureted or EFI vehicles.

Martin
 
The ethanol topic has been beat to death here..mainly by me :D

http://coloradok5.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1081607

everything you posted is correct though. it sucks. reduced thermal energy, corrosion, and best of all, alcohol fuels reduce the ability of fuel to act as a lubricant, critical in the upper cylinder area. AND, last but not least, the alcohol in the ethanol / biodiesel fuels attracts the antiwear compounds out of the lubricating oil..so your oils life is reduced every time that cylinder fires...and you can't stop that by using a synthetic.

thank you farm lobby..
 
The minute he said this, I stopped reading:

"However MTBE has now been virtually eliminated in the US due to its carcinogenic compounds and the huge potential problems caused by its pollution of as much as 75% of the ground water in the US and Canada."

75%, eh?

REAL science doesn't EVER refer to BS statistics. Claims like this make me question his entire article.
 
I've seen the 75% number cited before, and I've seen a lower number cited. it depends on the agenda of who's writing the article.

MTBE is nasty stuff, although it was a good oxygenate.
 
The minute he said this, I stopped reading:

"However MTBE has now been virtually eliminated in the US due to its carcinogenic compounds and the huge potential problems caused by its pollution of as much as 75% of the ground water in the US and Canada."

75%, eh?

REAL science doesn't EVER refer to BS statistics. Claims like this make me question his entire article.
Yeah I should have emphasized harder that that one was partially an ad. But, the basic data about the E10 is sound. And is available elsewhere. That site just had it grouped together better.
Also, even though I am replying to Cancan, I am going to throw in replies to 4by4bygod and 82355.
4, sorry about that. I was sure someone had posted about the problems, but my search missed it.
and 8, I agree, most of the problems are when you first start using it, and if the vehicle sits for a while or gets moisture in the fuel.
However, in my city, out of probably 200 gas stations, there are exactly 4 that do not have E10.
And two of them are marinas where the gas is almost $1 higher per gallon.
All the local boat folks did a search and maintain a list of which ones, due to the major problems it causes boaters.
A friend of mine does lots of Fiberglas work for boat owners, and he has had to literally cut out two gas tanks, one 150 gallon and one 200 or 250 I forget which, because they were built into the hull and were too old to be alcohol proof.
One guy's motor froze up from the dissolved resin, and one's deck got soft when the tank started collapsing. Maybe the same boat, its been awhile
J.
 
4, sorry about that. I was sure someone had posted about the problems, but my search missed it.


No biggie.. I just wanted to throw out some support for your post. I'm out of the fuels & lubricants biz, but I never pass up a chance to bash the stuff, lol.
 
Well as a Joe dip shirt I can say that on my great adventure if I used gas with ethanol in it I got WORSE mileage (dam you Iowa). Using Shell reg unleaded which was non ethanol I got the best mileage.

The times I got near 19 mpg highway was with SHELL. Back to the point they have proven this E85 is a waste in more ways than one less mileage and it cost more to make than gasoline.

I think 4by4bygod was one who pointed that out once (not sure though).
 
If you are buying E10, it is labeled as E10. You don't have to run the stuff. That being said, I have been running it for years with absolutely no problems, in either carbureted or EFI vehicles.

Martin

We don't have a choice in my neck of the woods.. it's been crammed down our throats.

The only people ethanol subsidies benefit is the agriculture industry.. and they have most of congress in their pockets.
 
New info to me... thanks for posting. I have yet to see ANY ethanol at pumps over here but when I do, I won't be using it.
 
Ran E85 in Krusty once last year. Made the trip to Oregon and averaged 13 MPG every tank, until I put that crap in. That tank got 8 MPG, with no other changes to driving, or towing weights. There is no way I would ever run that stuff through my tank again, luckily it is very uncommon around here.
 
Ran E85 in Krusty once last year. Made the trip to Oregon and averaged 13 MPG every tank, until I put that crap in. That tank got 8 MPG, with no other changes to driving, or towing weights. There is no way I would ever run that stuff through my tank again, luckily it is very uncommon around here.

You ran E85 in a vehicle set up to run on gasoline, and were surprised it ran poorly???

Martin
 
No, I ran E85 because I didn't see the sign on the pump until it was too late. Given a choice it never would have entered my system. I wasn't really suprised, just suprised at how poorly it performs compared to regular unleaded gas.

Edit: I may have written that wrong, it was 10% ethanol not E85. Either way, I won't run anything with ethanol ever again. Oh and remember this was Oregon, you know the state that doesn't allow you to pump your own gas, so I didn't see the sticker until it was too late.
 
My dad oopsed and put E85 in his Turboed focus and the damn thing would not even run it was pretty bad.. but hey we had about 4 cans of gas for the lawn mower after that adventure. I think lawnmowers and Harleys will run on the stuff with no problem.
 
Yeah, the 10% didn't seem to affect the engine as far as running, but the performance was dismal. At that point I had run three full tanks through the Blazer to get to Newport, and every tank worked out to ~13.3 MPG, while that tank sucked pretty bad at ~8 MPG.
 

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