either option is going to require new shafts and cross-member(s)
CK5
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Gears or Doubler???
- Thread starter ezoliver
- Start date
MTMike
1/2 ton status
He will have to convert his 205 to 32 spline.... he can leave the 203 at 27 spline if he's running a 350 or 700R4, but the 205 will have to be converted.
If you want more gear for the trail, than something like a doubler or other transfer case mod is the way to go. Regearing axles really only makes much of a difference on the road, going really low with axle gearing does give it more pep off the line but then you start sacrificing highway cruising.
Approximate crawl ratios assuming TH350/205 setup:
4.10 axles = 20:1
5.38 axles = 27:1
doubler w/ 4.10 = 20:1 AND 40:1
As you can see the doubler gives you a much lower crawl then axle ratios can.
I also disagree with the comment about nobody using 2:1. Around here it would suck always being stuck in 4:1 low range because in the Midwest/East Coast style wheeling a lot of places require wheelspeed and you just can't get much with a 4:1 low range.
Approximate crawl ratios assuming TH350/205 setup:
4.10 axles = 20:1
5.38 axles = 27:1
doubler w/ 4.10 = 20:1 AND 40:1
As you can see the doubler gives you a much lower crawl then axle ratios can.
I also disagree with the comment about nobody using 2:1. Around here it would suck always being stuck in 4:1 low range because in the Midwest/East Coast style wheeling a lot of places require wheelspeed and you just can't get much with a 4:1 low range.
wayne
3/4 ton status
Yes the NWF Doubler is cheaper by $70 but how much is shipping. I have heard of different stories with border fees and such. Plus in my oponion I think the ORD adapter is a more solid set up.
I can't find a Doubler kit that works with a 27 spline 205. All I found was 31 or 32 spline.
Yes he will have to do driveshafts and crossmembers no matter which way he goes.
I just don't want him to think he can toss in a Doubler for less then $800. No matter which way he goes it will be $$$$.
agreed. your gona have to pay to play. i know last time i geared axles, i went all out and ended up going WAY over budget because it was all apart so i did most of the upgrades at the same time, so gearing axles probably wont be any cheaper in the long run. doubler/Blackbox definitely seems like the best option to keep highway rpms down w/o overdrive but have increased gear for the trail.
Those look a bit low....did you forget to add in the "stall effect" for the torque converter?? I usually use a conservative additional multiplier of 2:1 to reflect the lower crawl speed of a converter that's below it's rated stall speed.
ezoliver
Mall Crawler
Thanks for all the responses guys! 
I think I am going to get the 40's over the 37's - just because I will always want a bigger tire...
I will probably do a gear change sometime this year - thinking 4.88 gearset.
I think I will just put on the tires and see how well (or not) it works.
I am gonna get a rear locker for my 4.10 gears, but I can just use thick gears if I cross into 4.56 and up correct?
Now i am actually leaning towards an Atlas - thinking 4.3:1 ratio.
I don't like mud and plan to stay in the Rockies - so rock crawling is my game.
I like the atlas for the increased ground clearance and weight difference over a doubler. I just don't really see where I would use the 2:1 much here.
Thoughts on this setup?
P.S. - Look for a build thread starting shortly...I have a big pile-o-parts - will be many photos...
I think I am going to get the 40's over the 37's - just because I will always want a bigger tire...
I will probably do a gear change sometime this year - thinking 4.88 gearset.
I think I will just put on the tires and see how well (or not) it works.
I am gonna get a rear locker for my 4.10 gears, but I can just use thick gears if I cross into 4.56 and up correct?
Now i am actually leaning towards an Atlas - thinking 4.3:1 ratio.
I don't like mud and plan to stay in the Rockies - so rock crawling is my game.
I like the atlas for the increased ground clearance and weight difference over a doubler. I just don't really see where I would use the 2:1 much here.
Thoughts on this setup?
P.S. - Look for a build thread starting shortly...I have a big pile-o-parts - will be many photos...
wayne
3/4 ton status
Thanks for all the responses guys!
I think I am going to get the 40's over the 37's - just because I will always want a bigger tire...
I will probably do a gear change sometime this year - thinking 4.88 gearset.
I think I will just put on the tires and see how well (or not) it works.
I am gonna get a rear locker for my 4.10 gears, but I can just use thick gears if I cross into 4.56 and up correct?
Now i am actually leaning towards an Atlas - thinking 4.3:1 ratio.
I don't like mud and plan to stay in the Rockies - so rock crawling is my game.
I like the atlas for the increased ground clearance and weight difference over a doubler. I just don't really see where I would use the 2:1 much here.
Thoughts on this setup?
P.S. - Look for a build thread starting shortly...I have a big pile-o-parts - will be many photos...
Sounds good. The 4.88's and 40's will be ok but it will suck some gas on the highways and yes you can get thick gears. I am ordering my thick 5.13's today for my 4.10 carrier. Also look at the Stak t case. I think either the Atlas or Stak will be a good choise. I am planning to get a Stak sometime in the future.
Those look a bit low....did you forget to add in the "stall effect" for the torque converter?? I usually use a conservative additional multiplier of 2:1 to reflect the lower crawl speed of a converter that's below it's rated stall speed.
No, I didn't factor in any torque converter multiplication. Since you are comparing apples to apples (different combos all using an auto trans) I don't see any reason to as the % difference is the same. If you are comparing to a manual trans, then yes.
Hossbaby50
3/4 ton status
You might want to rethink not doing a 3spd case of some sort. 2:1 is the most used gear for many people. Low low is the crawl gear but the single low is the bump gear & cruise gear. If you had a manual trans or a manual valve body a 2 speed case would be ok because you can always pick 2nd gear to start in instead of low low first gear or high.
There are quite a few trails and obsticles that require bumping in the rockies. Moab is a prime example of a place you tend to bump ledges and things like that alot. Low low doesn't offer the wheel speed needed to make loose rocky hill climbs, and unless you have a bad arse motor you might not have enough grunt to spin them well in high range.
Harley
There are quite a few trails and obsticles that require bumping in the rockies. Moab is a prime example of a place you tend to bump ledges and things like that alot. Low low doesn't offer the wheel speed needed to make loose rocky hill climbs, and unless you have a bad arse motor you might not have enough grunt to spin them well in high range.
Harley
Ezo,
Seriously consider how important highway cruising is.... throwing deep axle gears into a non-OD truck will adversely affect your experience (and fuel mileage!). You might be happier saving that money and applying it towards that Atlas box.
6.2 Blazer,
The effect of the stall converter is as real as any other gear ratio in the calculation. It translates to slower speed across the ground (or rocks). Calling a doubler-equipped vehicle a 40:1 truck is horribly misleading... and is only going to confuse the issue when he's throwing out that number and soliciting advice here or on other message boards.
Seriously consider how important highway cruising is.... throwing deep axle gears into a non-OD truck will adversely affect your experience (and fuel mileage!). You might be happier saving that money and applying it towards that Atlas box.
6.2 Blazer,
The effect of the stall converter is as real as any other gear ratio in the calculation. It translates to slower speed across the ground (or rocks). Calling a doubler-equipped vehicle a 40:1 truck is horribly misleading... and is only going to confuse the issue when he's throwing out that number and soliciting advice here or on other message boards.
6.2 Blazer,
The effect of the stall converter is as real as any other gear ratio in the calculation. It translates to slower speed across the ground (or rocks). Calling a doubler-equipped vehicle a 40:1 truck is horribly misleading... and is only going to confuse the issue when he's throwing out that number and soliciting advice here or on other message boards.
I'm not debating how the "torque" converter works at all. Whether I compared a 20:1 to 40:1 setup, or a 100:1 to 200:1 setup........the difference is still double in both cases.
If you understand the differences between automatic transmissions versus manual transmissions (apples vs. oranges) then it shouldn't be misleading. There is a huge difference between 40:1 ratio (without the torque converter) in an auto versus a 40:1 in a manual.
if your going to spend the $$ for gears and doubler, why not just keep the gears the same, get a doubler and a lomax 205, so youd have 1:1, 2:1, 3:1 and 6:1. that would definitely be the most badass setup and you could probably get everything and spend less than $2500 when its all said and done (assuming you buy the lomax kit and put it together yourself). you get the gear options of a 4speed atlas, and save some money at the same time (atlas price goes up real fast when you start adding upgrades). also, if you need parts for the 203 or 205 the parts store will likely have the seals in stock or at least be able to get them next day, no rick of national backorder or whatever and paying for additional shipping etc. in addition, i dont think the atlas would be any stronger than a doubler setup, however it would be lighter and have a couple less seals to leak from. still the way to go in my opinion or a Blackbox/205 combo.
thats very similar to the setup im going to be installing in june, except i have a old WMS 203 with the 3.1:1 gears in it so itll be 1:1, 2:1, 3.1:1, and 6.2:1.
dont get me wrong, atlas t-cases are badass, but your really going to want more than a 2spd one, and the more gear options the more $$$$
thats very similar to the setup im going to be installing in june, except i have a old WMS 203 with the 3.1:1 gears in it so itll be 1:1, 2:1, 3.1:1, and 6.2:1.
dont get me wrong, atlas t-cases are badass, but your really going to want more than a 2spd one, and the more gear options the more $$$$
6.2Blazer said:
Please elaborate...
This comment has piqued my interest.
"Without the torque converter" is the key. You can usually assume that the torque converter multiplies torque by a factor of 2. So if you have a "hard" ratio (actual gears) of 40:1 then times that number by two and now you have 80:1. In my opinion that is the best way to compare crawl ratios between an auto and manual trans.
The reason I didn't include the torque converter is that it is not a "hard" ratio...meaning it is a fluid coupling and always variable while a gear is always exactly the same and a definitive ratio. 2:1 is just a rough estimation. It will give the highest ratio right when you start moving and quickly move towards close to 1:1.
