Help me pick DS U-joints

[Mastiff]

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a SYE kit for my 208 from Tom Wood, along with new F/R driveshafts. I recently upgraded to D60/14BFF and have a conversion U-joint in the rear. Currently running only 35's, with potential future growth no larger than 37's.

My plan was to go with a 1350 CV shaft in the rear, but unsure about up front. What is the factory front U-joint on a K5, and how does it compare to a 1310 (or is it 1310)? My initial plan was to go with 1350 up there too, but according to Tom Wood, a 1350 will max out at 30 degrees and a 1310 will go to 35. 1350 would also require crossmember mods, which is not a big deal, but still a consideration.

So what do you guys think?

 

[Hogback Fabrication]

Your stock driveshaft is 3R for both joints in the CV and 1310 at the diff. The 3R joints are pretty good, the 1310 is small 1/2 ton stuff. So there's really nothing wrong with the 3R part but if you're buying a new shaft, skip the 1310.

If you want to go 1350, great. The angle numbers you find online aren't accurate, there's more to it. Different castings allow different amounts of angle, plus you can grind/machine them for more angle. Talk to Tom Wood's, they'll set you up.

 

[Mastiff]

Thanks Chris. Those numbers are straight from Tom Wood, so it seems like they must be legit since he's the one making the shafts.

I crawled under there just now, and the front shaft is at about 15 degrees at ride height. It's hard to estimate how big the angle could get and I don't have a lift or anything to easily do it, but 30-35 degrees looks like it would take a ton of droop. Of course I've never succeeded in maxing out the droop even under one corner with these dang ORD springs, at least in a controlled environment.

Does it make any sense to consider a 1350 at the pinion with a 1310 CV? The ones at the CV are probably sharing the load and under less stress each.

 

[sweetk30]

did you call jesse at had ?

he has been a good vendor here in the past and on the board somewhat .

just to get few prices . not bashing t/w stuff.

I my self have read / seen real world non greaseable last longer . plus true non greaseable is solid cross . ones with capoff plug are still hollow.

stock front stuff should be plenty with 35-37 tire size.

and rear I have run 1350 on my 1ton stuff and no problems.

 

[Mastiff]

I'm still struggling with the angles here. My front shaft is at about 16 degrees at ride height. If I allow my who front axle to drop down 14", back of the envelope math says I could have angles in excess of 40 degrees. The rear is worse because the T-case output is higher and the shaft lengths aren't all that much different.

I know I can bottom these shocks out one at a time, is there any reason the whole axle can't drop that much if the weight comes off? Also, am I misunderstanding the angle numbers? Is the 30-35 for a single U-joint, or for a CV? The single joint at the axle end won't ever see a huge amount of angle.

 

[bp71k5]

The numbers are for a single joint. If you still have the CV, you have nothing to worry about. I'd try to use the same joint everywhere to make spares easier. I used 1350 everywhere on mine.

 

[Mastiff]

The numbers are for a single joint.

You sure? After I posted I started poking around (wrong order, I know). I see TW is advertising a 42 degree CV as a very high angle option:

http://www.4xshaft.com/bamf.asp

That's consistent with 1310 CV being 35 and 1350 being 30 degrees.

I think the main thing I'm still confused about is whether my fairly mild trail rig is really in the same realm as extreme rock crawlers. Do I really need so much angle? Maybe I just need some limit straps at the center of my axles to keep the articulation while preventing the whole axle from dropping away.

 

[bp71k5]

Oh, if it says the "CV" is 35 degrees, then it's for the CV. Most of the time the angle refers to just one joint since not everyone uses cv joints. In all reality, I think you'll be fine with 1350 if it sits on flat road at 16degrees. You generally aren't moving that fast when your suspension is dropped out anyway (unless your running king of the hammers, etc)

 

[gonefishin]

I have a d60/14 bolt combo and I went 1350 cv in the rear and I retubed the front shaft myself. I broke the 3r flange one time, but after checking it I noticed after I lifted it 2 more inches that it would be possible to bind it and that's why it broke I think.

anyway after extensive clearancing it has performed great. I have a very healthy small block and I dump the clutch hard at 4000 rpms and I haven't broke it again. I am running 35 inch boggers and my front diff is welded.

I think 30 degrees sounds about right for the 1350 cv. I wouldn't downsize to the 1310 I don't think it would hold up as well.

 

[K85 Octane]

You are not getting 14" of down travel. If you are, it will be at the wheels while twisted up, not the diff. I believe the pig will droop farther while the passenger side drops, than if you get air born.

But that's neither here nor there. Give me just a moment.....

 

[K85 Octane]

I have TW driveshafts and 208 SYE. (I still have it in garage, changed to 241)

1350 front CV and yoke
1350 rear CV and 1410 yoke

Running 5" lift with front axle moved 1.5" forward. How much does that help my angles? Not sure. Here is a post of the shafts they will give you, plus SYE, and I'm still running factory "W" crossmember.

http://coloradok5.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3140716&postcount=367

You can see the crossmember here. No T-case drop or anything. Factory location, factory mount, 1350 joints

After I beat on this setup for a while I switched to a 241 and clocked up flat. This put the front CV at a harsher angle but it hasn't bottomed out during full passenger side droop. Clocking doesn't affect the rear shaft. I made my own crossmember after the clocking, but the factory one was never in the way. (wanted flat belly)

.
.
. Full passenger side droop example. I'm sure your ORD's droop more, but my T-case output is roughly 6+" above yours. And link to clocking & crossmember http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p33/B450r/truck/K5 Build/a034.jpg

 

[Mastiff]

You are not getting 14" of down travel.

Yeah, I have 14" travel up front, but only about 8" is down. That puts my back of the envelope closer to 30 degrees. Still in the danger zone for a CV that binds at 30 though.

Anyone running 1410's without CV's? Guys on Pirate seem to be pushing that.

 

[Blue85]

I think your setup is similar to mine, but you may be an inch higher and you might not have the front axle moved 1" forward like I do. I have a stock-type C/V on the front shaft with a long-slip joint on it. On droop, the C/V was hitting the cross-member (this was never a problem before I got the ORD springs). I solved that with a 1" driveshaft spacer and some mild mods to the cross-member. Then I had to grind out material on the C/V to get more angle from it. If it's bottoming out, you'll see shiny spots where the ears are hitting. In general, a C/V joint provides LESS angle than a single joint (of the same type), even though it has "2 joints". But these 3R C/V seem to do pretty well.

A 1410 has the thickness of a 1350, but provides more angle due to the longer cross. Just like a 1330 vs. a 1310. Running a single joint at the T-case just means that you will get vibrations on the road in 4WD.

 

[Blue85]

Just go high pinion and be done?

 

[Mastiff]

Just go high pinion and be done?

It's starting to look like the easy way out is to put in a center limit strap. Not much value having the whole axle drop away and the strap wouldn't affect articulation, at least not much. I probably need straps at the corner too because something will hit before those springs stop. I know the shocks hit in the back because I can't fit a 14" back there (and I tested it last night). So, three straps in front and two in back and I'm good...

 

[Mastiff]

Big travel is a pain in the rear. I tested my front droop for the whole axle and the first thing to hit was the driveshaft against the crossover pipe. I can have that moved back an inch or two I think and get some more out of it.

No matter what, I think I'm going to install some limit straps to keep this thing from hurting itself. I don't think there's any way I'm going to max out the springs, something else will always hit first.

 

[Mastiff]

K85, tell me about the Tom Woods SYE install. I'm going in blind. I've never taken apart a chain driven case before or even had the case off my K5. How far did you have to tear into it to get the mainshaft out?

Also, is there a way to grease the center ball on the 1350 CV? I looked but couldn't see anything.

 

[MTBLAZER89]

I switched to a 1410 at the pinion up front with the travel I get from the 52's I kept binding and breaking that joint or yoke when it dropped out. I also moved my crossover pipe on the exhaust to above the front shaft. It runs right in front of the pan but still enough room to drop it.

I don't know how your shock mounts are set up, but I ran 15" travel shocks in the rear. You can move them inboard like / \ if you need to get more travel from them. If they limit your suspension it will kill the shocks fast.

Some of those centering balls have a needle type zerk, but some are sealed. I had them put a zerk in mine when I sent my shaft to HAD for the 1410 yoke. Remember you need lots of slip for 8-10 inches of droop as well.

 

[Mastiff]

I also moved my crossover pipe on the exhaust to above the front shaft. It runs right in front of the pan but still enough room to drop it.

Do you have headers? With my headers, they extend far enough back that the crossover would have to somehow go back forward to clear the DS on top. I have Doug Thorley tri-Y's. Maybe shorty headers would allow it to happen.

I don't know how your shock mounts are set up, but I ran 15" travel shocks in the rear. You can move them inboard like / \ if you need to get more travel from them. If they limit your suspension it will kill the shocks fast.

You got 15's in the stock spot? With my lift, I have about 23" eye to eye when level. The 14" bilsteins compress to about 21", so that would be 2" of uptravel and 12" downtravel. 12" travel shocks compress to 18", which would be 6" up and 6" down. I like this better, but the shocks do limit the droop.

Some of those centering balls have a needle type zerk, but some are sealed. I had them put a zerk in mine when I sent my shaft to HAD for the 1410 yoke. Remember you need lots of slip for 8-10 inches of droop as well.

In the rear at least, with the rear shackles, the suspension comes forward on droop, so there should be less range in the DS. Up front is another story.

 

[MTBLAZER89]

No I am running manifolds. Yeah I think long tubes would force you to crossover behind the case.

Yeah I ran 15" travel Pro Comps on the rear with around 5" of lift. Stock mounts on axle and stock frame mounts. Had about 4-5" of chrome showing ar ride height.

I mean lots of slip for the front shaft. Yeah the rear is fine, but I run a 12" slip on my shaft up front and it uses a lot of it when the pass side drops out.