Help me talk myself out of or into a NV4500

[broncoman6524]

Well.. tax return is on it's way.

I'm at my wits end with trying to get my 4L80 to lockup properly, almost at the point where I've started searching for a NV4500.

I used to run a 465, and it was awesome with my new engine.. however I also totaled the truck when I exploded the flywheel.

So.. people who run a 4500, please chime in, how does it compare to the 465? Same except with OD? Does it shift any smoother than the 465?


For what it's worth.. even a 3K stall didn't really make the auto as much fun as skating sideways with just blipping the throttle when it was a stick.

 

[blazinzuk]

I have driven plenty of 465s and plenty of 4500s.

So 4500 is smoother, stupid cause it takes the specific oil, exactly the same with a better feel than the 465

Same doesn't quite have the right gear between 3 and 4 if your towing with hills but not bad

 

[tRustyK5]

Agreed. Same wide ratios, but much smoother shifting and of course an OD gear. I'd go as far as saying more potential for failure though. 5th gear nut is a well known issue with many "fixes". Most fixes aren't great IMO, not much more than a band-aid really. Even slightly low fluid level and input bearing failure is a real possibility...and believe me the end result inside the tranny isn't pretty or cheap to fix.

 

[broncoman6524]

Agreed. Same wide ratios, but much smoother shifting and of course an OD gear. I'd go as far as saying more potential for failure though. 5th gear nut is a well known issue with many "fixes". Most fixes aren't great IMO, not much more than a band-aid really. Even slightly low fluid level and input bearing failure is a real possibility...and believe me the end result inside the tranny isn't pretty or cheap to fix.

This is what I've heard and I'm afraid of. It's hard to swallow a 1K trans then drop alot into it to build it stout.

That's before I find a bullet proof bellhousing, and really nice clutch. I'm back and forth, the finances of it are what turned me away from the swap earlier this year.

 

[ryoken]

5600

 

[1BEATK5]

The 5th gear nut isn't a problem with a gas engine. There isn't a reason to "build" a 4500 without the big C word in front of it.

I wouldn't go 5600 just due to parts issues.

 

[black dawg]

yea, dont know what you are going to use it in or for, but I cant see having any issues if the oil is kept up, and used behind a gasser.

 

[broncoman6524]

I didn't mean build in the manner of billet shafts and such, just going through it to take care of the common issues and replace what's needed.

It'd be behind a mildy build LQ9, the 465 wasn't an issue last time, the flywheel was.

 

[NorCalKid]

I run one in my DD behind a 6.0. Its a fun transmission, way tighter and easier to shift then a 465. The fluid can be a pain to find like others have said but redline makes a decent replacement. I wouldnt worry about building it unless you are running a tuned diesel and towing a lot, they are plenty strong behind a decently built gasser

 

[Larry]

I run a 2006 NV4500/205 in my ’78 K10 behind an 8.1L and last winter also swapped a 1998 NV4500 into my ’89 Suburban behind a TBI 5.7L with a NP241 tcase. Both rigs have the later transmissions with the 5.61 granny gear instead of the early ones with the nice 6.34 granny gear. On the other hand, the later ones also shift much nicer. Then I have a somewhat rare 2001 Silverado 2500HD that I bought new 13 years ago with an 8.1L and ZF S6-650 6 speed manual. Over the years I’ve had several SM465 and SM420’s in various GM trucks.

Anyway, out of all the GM manuals, the NV4500 is my absolute favorite of all of them hands down. It is no sportscar transmission but it is about as close to one as you can get in a fullsize truck. It may not be as strong as a 465 but it is not a dump truck archaic shifting thing either. After being used to driving the NV4500 in my K10, I couldn’t stand to drive the SM465 in the Suburban anymore so that 465 in the Burb had to go. The lack of overdrive helped make it an easy decision. Now, the ZF 6 speed in my Silverado is a disaster. It has the most ridiculous shift pattern and clumsy gates of any manual transmission I’ve ever driven but I doubt that trans will ever break. The ZF’s are anvil strong!

So that is the good stuff going for the NV4500….the bad side of the NV4500 is the later version (1995-2006) has a horrible first gear. I badly miss the 6.34 granny gear of the SM465’s before them. The deep granny gear was so nice when descending a vertical grade. Then there is all of the 5th gear war stories. The NV4500 in my K10 was swapped in 3 years ago and 14,000 miles later 5th gear started screaming on my way home from Death Valley last spring. I can’t even blame the 5th gear nut as the culprit because I was using an Advance Adapters kit where the mainshaft is cut off and the 5th gear nut isn’t even used. It uses a collar to hold 5th gear and the sleeve between the transfercase and transmainshaft help hold 5th gear in place. Once it was apart we found what we suspected…the 5th gear cog was rocking on the mainshaft like the typical loose nut issue but yet there is no nut to back off and everything holding 5th gear in place seemed to be solid with zero end play.

While it was apart getting a fresh mainshaft and 5th gear cog I went with a round pattern 205 this time with no adapters between the trans and tcase as well as added two big ass coolers to the PTO plate covers for added fluid capacity. We’ll see how well it lasts this time and “if” the 5th gear nut backing off stories come true. If it s on me again it is getting replaced with an Allison!

One theory with my low mileage NV4500 5th gear issue is the fact I constantly lug the truck. By lugging it, I mean that I shift it at very low RPM’s. It is not uncommon for me to be in 5th gear before 40 MPH. The 8.1L is like a diesel where it has the torque to lug itself around at low RPM’s but in high gears. There is a popular opinion lugging them is just as bad on them as the diesels vibrating the mainshaft nut loose. The fact the truck weighs 8,000 lbs. probably doesn't help the 5th gear much when I lug it either. In hindsight I really wish I would have installed the mainshaft damper while I had it apart a few weeks ago to help reduce those harmonics if there is any truth in the lugging theory. I guess time will tell! Meanwhile I am keeping my eyes open for an Allison 2200.

At least the NV4500's are an easy swap and look sexy underneath tho!

'78 K10

'89 Suburban

 

[ssyork]

I've never ran the 465. I have ran my 4500 for 6 years in the off road truck and for 3 or 4 years prior to that in my k2500 truck. I have yet to have any problems, and I have slamed it around pretty good in the off road truck. I run a mildly built 5.7L, with a 241/205 behind it. Overfill it by a 1/2 to 1 full quart thru the top cover and run it!

 

[paratrooper307]

Another option as long as you aren't planning on big towing or ridiculous abuse might be an NV3500. Yes, they aren't as stout as a 4500, but the ratios are much better, and if you get one from the late 90's/early 2000's trucks, they are significantly stronger than previous designs. Easy to install too. For a daily driver/mild-moderate wheeler it might be just the ticket.

 

[broncoman6524]

Another option as long as you aren't planning on big towing or ridiculous abuse might be an NV3500. Yes, they aren't as stout as a 4500, but the ratios are much better, and if you get one from the late 90's/early 2000's trucks, they are significantly stronger than previous designs. Easy to install too. For a daily driver/mild-moderate wheeler it might be just the ticket.

I'm pretty hard on my stuff, otherwise I'd go that route.

 

[toomany]

I'm in the same boat of wanting to swap in a 4500. For a few other reasons though.

Currently have a 465/205. While I have no major complaints with either, it's a bunch of small things that add up. The 465 leaks from the front seal (as much as I've had the motor out recently you'd think I would have done something about that). It up shifts fine, downshifting is hard though. Even double clutching it is still difficult. Sloppy shifter. In the recent cold, it's like shifting through a peanut butter/honey mix. And the obvious no OD. The 205 has a loose front bearing and leaks from there too. It's also a slip yoke version. It shifts wonderfully though.

I've had many 465's so I know their quirks...this one has most all of them. Thinking of going 4500/241.

I drive my K5 regularly so having a smoother shifting transmission would be a plus. The OD would be nice too. Doubt I'd see any mileage gains but the reduced RPM's on the highway would be the advantage there. I'm also looking to step up to some 40's, so a regear in the axles is in the pipe too (currently 4.10's, 4.88 most likely). So the OD will help there too.

I've basically talked myself into one. The hard part is finding one in my area, and coming up with the cash to get all the small parts. I'm figuring a budget of 2k to get it done.

 

[ryoken]

I'm gonna wait till I put a Cummins in Mutt to do a 4500 in it over the 465... I'll keep the 205, and twin stick it in the meantime.. we'll see tho, if I regear, that may go out the window..

 

[82355]

Why would anyone talk you out of going to a manual over a boring ass automatic???

Martin

 

[Chevy305]

I had a 465 and I thought it was the tits until the lack OD and the dump truck shifting finally got the best of me. I swapped in a 4500 and its sooooo much better. I found a custom made short throw shifter for it and holy crap its tight and fast. It shifts very close to my '12 Camaro with the TR6060 and a Hurst short throw. Now I want to drop a 4500 in my Tahoe with that shifter because the factory 4L60 is just plain lame, even with a trans tune.

Everyone complains about the fluid because they are buying it through the dealer. Any GL4 fluid meets the specs. I went with Redline:

 

[ssyork]

I had a 465 and I thought it was the tits until the lack OD and the dump truck shifting finally got the best of me. I swapped in a 4500 and its sooooo much better. I found a custom made short throw shifter for it and holy crap its tight and fast. It shifts very close to my '12 Camaro with the TR6060 and a Hurst short throw. Now I want to drop a 4500 in my Tahoe with that shifter because the factory 4L60 is just plain lame, even with a trans tune. ]

Anymore info on the short throw shifter? My knuckles would love one. Sometimes when I slam second I hit the 205 shifter for the front. Can't turn sifter because of the dash clearance.

 

[MNorby]

As far as I know the short throw shifter only works on trannys with a removable shift tower. Some of the older models the shift tower is part of the top cover. I think the covers can be swapped but not 100% sure on that. Granted thats on the Dodge stuff, GM may be different. Seems like some have made them work though.

 

[broncoman6524]

I had a 465 and I thought it was the tits until the lack OD and the dump truck shifting finally got the best of me. I swapped in a 4500 and its sooooo much better. I found a custom made short throw shifter for it and holy crap its tight and fast. It shifts very close to my '12 Camaro with the TR6060 and a Hurst short throw. Now I want to drop a 4500 in my Tahoe with that shifter because the factory 4L60 is just plain lame, even with a trans tune.

I was waiting for you to chime in, I expected a more sarcastic answer.. Since you called me out for going auto awhile back

The biggest factor will be how easily I can find a trans.. I found one today, 250$ but it had been sold.

In those pictures, it looks like you're running a mechanical linkage? Does the SM465 bell swap onto a NV4500?

Are there any real differences between chevrolet and dodge NV4500s that I should be aware of?