how can i get more power from my 454?

[JoshHefnerX]

That zinc level thing is just a myth. Zinc increases did help to some degree, but at too high a level they actually caused spalling. The same wear tests from 30+ years ago are still done today for wear resistance and the oils still pass those tests.

There's still a bunch of cars on the road w/ flat tappets and they're fine.

 

[folkenheath]

The zinc may not be necessary for long term operation, that could be argued both ways, but it's definitely recommended for breakin of a flat tappet.

If you have the money, hyd roller is the way to go, I agree with the guys, faster ramp rates and more lift.

If you have the money, the 489/496 is the way to go too. You can get a SCAT 9000 4.25" stroke crank for around $300 or so, plus new pistons with the right compression height and a balance job and you just bumped up power and torque significantly.

 

[Blue85]

Modern oils are not made with flat tappets in mind. They have very low levels of zinc and other lubricants needed for them to survive. You can use additives at every oil change, but how long before the enviro-nazi's make it so you can't get those anymore. Roller cams are worth the peace of mind, imho.

Come on, CK5 represents many millions of miles on SBCs with flat tappets and modern oils....

 

[ChrisPerry]

Come on, CK5 represents many millions of miles on SBCs with flat tappets and modern oils....

True, but how many of those engines are fresh rebuilds with no additives added to the oil. I have dealt with at least 5-6 cams going flat in the last 5 years (not all on my motors). All of them with proper break in (lower spring pressure, lubed properly, 18-2500 rpm, fired immediately, ect.), but no added zinc.

Now 20 years ago, with oil that was truly formulated for flat tappets (rollers were exotic) out of 30-35 cam swaps only had 1 go flat. That failure was due to no break in, it was idled for 15 min before the break in, and failed about 45 min later.

Maybe this is all in the manufacturing of the modern flat tappet cams, or just bad luck.

Sounds like you have great luck with modern oil and flat tappets as do others, I'm happy for that. (Not being a smart ass here) wish I could say the same. I wonder how many people run regular oil and how many use high zinc diesel oil or additives.

That being said, if money allows, I won't run anything but a roller again. This is just my opinion, made because of personal experiences.

 

[the_blaze]

I'm at the sema show today and I talked with the guys from crane cams for over an hour, he said roller is the absolute best way to go if I can afford it. He said the flat tap cams have a 38% fail rate and that's why they quit warranting them. He said the roller setup would guarantee success with thus build. He also said with a roller I open up my power band of ( 2,000 rpm- 5,000 rpm flat tap) to (1,600 rpm- 5,800 rpm roller) with a very comparable cam. The guys from crane also seem to think I'll feel the roller setup in the seat. I can't decide if they are selling me stuff or if that's the honest truth.

I just want this donr correctly and I'd like to drive my truck at some point this year

 

[the_blaze]

Come on, CK5 represents many millions of miles on SBCs with flat tappets and modern oils....

BBC and SBC are two totally different beasts. I keep reading over and over that the BBC is notoriously hard on aftermarket cams

 

[the_blaze]

Hahaha ugh I'm losing sleep over this.... if I stick with the flat tap style I'd save $700 bucks I could really use somewhere else
..... but I know I run the risk of losing another cam....

Something to consider is this most recent failure was a bearing failure and some of that bearing material got in the oil and wore down the cam a little. If the bearing wouldn't have gone out I bet the cam would have been fine.

On the other hand if I don't do the roller and I kill another cam I'm out all this money, time, and cost of a new build. (More than spending the extra $ now)

I'm almost wondering if it's worth $700 just for the price of mind so I'm not so afraid of the dang thing blowing up all the time...
If only I was stupid rich lol

 

[76zimmer]

Hahaha ugh I'm losing sleep over this.... if I stick with the flat tap style I'd save $700 bucks I could really use somewhere else
..... but I know I run the risk of losing another cam....

Something to consider is this most recent failure was a bearing failure and some of that bearing material got in the oil and wore down the cam a little. If the bearing wouldn't have gone out I bet the cam would have been fine.

On the other hand if I don't do the roller and I kill another cam I'm out all this money, time, and cost of a new build. (More than spending the extra $ now)

I'm almost wondering if it's worth $700 just for the price of mind so I'm not so afraid of the dang thing blowing up all the time...
If only I was stupid rich lol

I'd take everything that looks good to the swap meet and start with a take out engine in need of a rebuild....old damaged parts have a habit of haunting the engine they're in....you've lived it 3 times already!
I've got flat tappet cams in 4 different vehicles and simply add 12oz of zinc additive at each oil change. They were broken in properly with hi-zinc oil and the last one I had apart for a refresh showed less than .002 wear on any of the lobes. Also the frequent valve adjustment myth on mechanical lifters is bunk too....if you run your engines in the redline all the time maybe so, but for a trail/street truck I wouldn't be concerned with it.
Of course if you want to spend another 700$ for roller setup go for it, you won't be sorry, unless the roller tie bars break or a roller comes apart!

 

[the_blaze]

I'd take everything that looks good to the swap meet and start with a take out engine in need of a rebuild....old damaged parts have a habit of haunting the engine they're in....you've lived it 3 times already!
I've got flat tappet cams in 4 different vehicles and simply add 12oz of zinc additive at each oil change. They were broken in properly with hi-zinc oil and the last one I had apart for a refresh showed less than .002 wear on any of the lobes. Also the frequent valve adjustment myth on mechanical lifters is bunk too....if you run your engines in the redline all the time maybe so, but for a trail/street truck I wouldn't be concerned with it.
Of course if you want to spend another 700$ for roller setup go for it, you won't be sorry, unless the roller tie bars break or a roller comes apart!

Honestly I would rather save the money.
We are doing all new internals. The only old parts are the heads, block And pistons. The Pistons and heads are basically brand new.

I want to hear some success stories on aftermarket cams in BBC engins, so far all I've heard in nightmares and negative.

 

[76zimmer]

Im very happy with my setup that I posted back on page 1
0 issues now with FI and I think my carb issues were tank pickup related
At any rate I would not hesitate to run a solid flat tappet cam again

 

[nvrenuf]

I'm on my 3rd 454 in 18 yrs, I've always had aftermarket cams (hydraulic flat tappet, solid roller and now hydraulic roller) and I've only had a cam failure on my very first build back in 87 (my fault). Nothing but good to report here.

 

[diesel4me]

I had a '74 454 from a Malibu in my 77 GMC,its OEM cam ate a lobe or two and I opted to put a Sealed Power Speed Pro cam in it,which was a slightly lumpier version over the stock one...

I ran that engine about 20,000 miles after that, before I sold it,it had a wrist pin rattle at certain speeds that made me nervous,but the cam held up fine ,the guy I sold it too was going to use the engine in a ramp truck,and took it completely apart,said the cam looked fine,but two pistons had busted skirts and one of them had a lot of excess wrist pin play..

I bought a '78 Suburban for 425 bucks with a 400 SB to swap into my 77 GMC,I liked that engine better than the 454,it seemed just as powerful,maybe a bit more,and was lighter...however I've seen several 400 SB's that were nightmares after being rebuilt,one had cam bearing alignment issues and ended up needing a line boring and oversized bearings put in,and a few others ended up having the cylinder walls crack after being bored only .010 over..they tend to overheat easy,and dont take kindly to it..

I think camshafts are Chevy's biggest downfall,at least flat tappet ones...I had to put a new cam in 2 307's I had,and 305's had issues with them and valve guides in the late 70's...funny thing was all the 283's I had and those friends owned never lost any lobes..

A friend replaced a cam in a '68 Chevelle recently with a 327,and it ate two lobes within 1500 miles,despite using break in lube and proper break in procedures..the second one he installed is still good after 5000+ miles,he suggested the owner use 15W-40 diesel oil instead of 10W-30 Castrol like the first time..I think many aftermarket flat tappet cams just don't get the proper heat treatment on every lobe..and todays oils are not rated for flat tappets..

 

[gonefishin]

If it was me i would go roller. Although I have had great luck with flat tappet cams. I use nothing but rotella 15w40 in my engines with flat tappet cams. I also use the break in additive and do a propper cam break-in in the driveway before i ever drive it. The last engine i built it was all hands on deck for the cam break-in. Had my wife and neighbor there to help in case anything went wrong and to watch everything. It is very important to get the rpm's up quick and keep them there.

Also that seems like a big jump to go to a 496. Did you ask what brand components he would use?

 

[the_blaze]

If it was me i would go roller. Although I have had great luck with flat tappet cams. I use nothing but rotella 15w40 in my engines with flat tappet cams. I also use the break in additive and do a propper cam break-in in the driveway before i ever drive it. The last engine i built it was all hands on deck for the cam break-in. Had my wife and neighbor there to help in case anything went wrong and to watch everything. It is very important to get the rpm's up quick and keep them there.

Also that seems like a big jump to go to a 496. Did you ask what brand components he would use?

We have been using crane cam parts and the part number he gave me was another crane part# . What he is quoting me is a hydraulic roller setup.

 

[the_blaze]

I say go for more compression...I run premium on my engine:
dyno 2000 says 550 tq and 460 hp torque curve is over 520 from 2000 to 4500 rpm...its a real nice powerplant for these trucks, especially when you want to hit the fast pedal often!


Quote:
[So my head guy emailed me the flow numbers for the 781 Oval Ports....

intake exhaust
.100--86 73 @28"
.200--169 128
.300--237 194
.400--285 216
.500--318 227
.600--319 227

Never had heads flow benched before....anyone know how these numbers look?

I just went to the best guy I know, and let him handle it....


by entering those flow numbers in my Dyno 2000 program, with small tube headers &mufflers, 800cfm dual plane intake, 9.4 compression, cam +4 advance....I get a peak of 470 hp, and torque peak of 550 @ 3500. ] end quote

Quote [Zim, here are the final numbers I get for your engine...

Number of Cylinders 8
Bore (in) 4.280
Stroke (in) 4.250
Connecting Rod Length (in) 6.135
Anticipated Redline (RPM) 5500
Gasket Volume (cc) 9.7
Piston Volume (cc) 23
Comb Chamber Volume (cc) 119
Deck Height (in) 9.800
Extra Quench Height (in) 0.005
Intake Closing(deg) 60
Boost Pressure (lbs/sq-in(psig)) 0
Volumetric Efficiency (%) 90

Outputs
Cylinder Volume (in3) 57.55
Swept Volume (in3) 6.52
Engine C.I.D. 460
Engine Liters 7.54
Bore/Stroke Ratio 1.07
Connecting Rod Ratio 1.53
Compression Height (in) 1.665
CFM Flow 659
Compression Ratio 9.82
Dynamic Compression Ratio 8.17

And yes it says 460, technically your bore is probably ~.005 thousands over that for piston clearance, and even if you change it to 4.281, then it rounds to 461 CID. Compression differences are negligable, .01 difference or something.

Also, for reference, in the gasket volume line, I was looking for the compressed volume of the gasket in cc, not the compressed thickness. Many times they list the compressed volume, if they don't I just calculate it based on the bore and thickness then on the side column gasket calculator in my spreadsheet. ] End Quote

my cam specs:

Comp Cams Mechanical flat tappet
rpm range 1600-6000
gross valve lift intake .553
gross valve lift exhaust .568
duration @ .050 intake 230
duration @ .050 exhaust 236
intake centerline 106
lobe separation 110

Do you have a part # for this cam?

 

[ChrisPerry]

We have been using crane cam parts and the part number he gave me was another crane part# . What he is quoting me is a hydraulic roller setup.

What roller grind is he recommending? I'm running a Crane roller in my 400sb and its awesome.

 

[the_blaze]

What roller grind is he recommending? I'm running a Crane roller in my 400sb and its awesome.

The part # is 139011

 

[the_blaze]

Notes from the crane cam guys.
Top is current setup bottom is what machine shop recommends.

 

[76zimmer]

Do you have a part # for this cam?

Comp Cams Mechanical flat tappet 11-676-4 Xtreme energy
rpm range 1600-6000
gross valve lift intake .553
gross valve lift exhaust .568
duration @ .050 intake 230
duration @ .050 exhaust 236
intake centerline 106
lobe separation 110

 

[the_blaze]

I still have not decided on a cam yet....
Let me ask a very important question. lets say I stick with the flat tappet cam, What brand is the absolute best? I have been using crane cams with little luck, however I likely screwed up the install on the first one and the last one was contaminated with bearing material from the crank so I am having a hard time judging crane at this point.