HP Dana 60 Front in '83 K5

[AR_K5]

Originally titled "Front Springs".
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Hello again guys/gals.

As some of you already know, I'm in the middle of reconstructing a Mall Crawler that I traded for, into a (street legal) Wall Crawler.

My question this time involves the front springs. It had these 4-6" lift springs on it when I got it, but they don't seem to have much drop available, and they twist the crap out of the frame on the trails.

I have read over the 52 swap write up seen here:
http://coloradok5.com/52inchspringswap.shtml

It seems simple enough, but I got to wondering, why couldn't I disconnect the existing shackle at the spring head and add an extra 4" rear shackle that I have laying around and effectively be running a dual shackle set up? I would of corse take an old piece of tire tread and fix it to the underside of the frame to keep it from banging.

I know about dual shackle "unloading" but with no more travel than this mod would add I really don't think it would be that much of a problem. Plus the heavy Dana 60 and 37" Hummer Tires should help to keep the CG low. And I'm running a Q-Jet so I can't go vertical enough to unload anyway I don't think. and I can make them lockable for on road use if needed.

My next best option would be to mix these front packs with my old sagging scrap 52's and see what I can come up with, then start moving hangers. I want better travel but don't need so much that my front drive shaft pulls itself in two.

I just thought I would toss this in the sharks pond and see what comes out.

This is not a DD, I do not have to worry about inspections, it only has to be street legal'ish to drive around town and to the trails. I don't plan to drive it on any interstates.

(Pic removed)

 

[blazinzuk]

Instability side to side. They also unload worse than you think.

It will affect steering adversely. It will move the shackles.

At ever minimum it would require some serious beefing of the frame right there. In addition to throwing your caster off.

This is not internet balcony that I am regurgitating. Years ago it is what we did to add travel for cheap. I have had these types of shackles on several different rigs. So have my buddies. They rarely stayed on for more than a year.

Oh yah and you would need at least a 12" slip in the drive shaft

 

[AR_K5]

Instability side to side. They also unload worse than you think.

It will affect steering adversely. It will move the shackles.

At ever minimum it would require some serious beefing of the frame right there. In addition to throwing your caster off.

This is not internet balcony that I am regurgitating. Years ago it is what we did to add travel for cheap. I have had these types of shackles on several different rigs. So have my buddies. They rarely stayed on for more than a year.

Oh yah and you would need at least a 12" slip in the drive shaft

Now I'm not trying to be argumentative because I've never ran a double shackle setup, but I am an experienced fabricator, and I am pretty good at understanding how things work. What I don't get is how my steering would be so adversely effected if the front rigid mounts stay the same. Also I am not trying to gain any lift and do not wish to change the angle of the front axle. I will be running a High Pinion Dana 60, so that helps with the front drive shaft.

What if a guy were to make long wide shackles, lets say 8" (example only) pointed down, with a shorter shackle pointed up, inside the long shackle so that the spring eye remained at it's current height. Stops could easily be made to limit unloaded travel. Also I am making limiting straps for the shocks out of bolts down seatbelt anchors and seatbelt webbing.

 

[NorCal_Chris]

Are you going to order custom length shocks?

You can easily max out a 14in shock with a normal, stable, predictable shackle

 

[AR_K5]

Are you going to order custom length shocks?

You can easily max out a 14in shock with a normal, stable, predictable shackle

The ones I was using before the swap are 22" (extended), but I have a set that is 28" (extended) that I can use. It all depends on how I decide to mount the shocks. All that is hooked up at this very moment are the U-bolts (not torqued) and the steel braided brake lines (that I paid way too much for).

 

[Fred_M1010]

The sideway stability of the axle would be much worse, so the steering would move the axle sideways before it starts turning the wheels
(Assuming you have crossover, and if you don't you need to get it anyway)
With long or double shackles, you would also get a lot of caster and pinion angle change on droop.
I have really long shackles and I have these problems, and i can only imagine how much worse it would be with an extra joint on the shackle...

Not to mention the fact that 52 springs in themselves gives a sh*t load of droop with regular shackles.
So a double shackle setup wouldn't add anything but instability.
It could also invert itself, causing very strange behavior...

You probably won't be able to use your stock driveshaft with 52" springs anyway btw.
But since you have a HP axle, it might work if you limit droop some, and use regular shackles, but I doubt it...

If you really don't want to move your rear shackle hanger,
I guess you could move the front spring hanger 2" forward only instead of the usual 4" (and keep the axle in the stock location).
Then you could probably get a descent shackle angle with the stock shackle mounting hole...
But you wouldn't get the extra clearance to the cab.
I haven't tried it myself though, so maybe someone can chime in to verify or reject that thought...

 

[big dan]

The extended length of your shocks does not tell the travel. For example my 15" travel shocks are like 34 or 36" extended.

I would say that if you're looking for some cheap flex, move your shackle hanger forward for more angle and use a longer shackle on your stock springs.

From reading some of your other threads you're not ready for the price that comes with big flex. Even with the 52" swap you're looking at spending some money on shocks and a driveshaft, possibly even longer brake lines. Personally if you want big flex and reliability (and Im talking about spring life, not how good it does going to the grocery store) custom springs are the only way to go but they're spendy. In the end it doesn't matter how you go, more flex=more money.

As far as your shackle idea goes, others have told you its a bad idea. Do a search on revolver shackles. I remember when they were popular, especially with the jeep guys. Havent seen anybody running them in years.

 

[n4xplay]

not trying to stir the pot but what you may be thinking is along the lines of:
http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/inde...s/front-missing-link-kits-ruf-swap-parts.html or the revolver style

these work fine on front mounted shackles becouse when they open it points your pinion up, not down like the rear mounted shackles. if you want to play with it by all means go for it just dont burn your bridge and not be able to go back to a stock setup when you dont like how it works.

also make shure you pay attention to ujoint bind on the drive shaft if you set it up

 

[MTBLAZER89]

I'll just throw my .02 in here as well.

I had to limit my down travel with 52's and one 7" shackle. I am able to droop more than my 15" shocks (10" downtravel), my extended brake lines, and my 1410 long slip CV driveline can handle. My RTI is 1100+ and I just cant see how I could ever realistically use more travel than what I have.

 

[AR_K5]

The extended length of your shocks does not tell the travel. For example my 15" travel shocks are like 34 or 36" extended.

Got it.

I would say that if you're looking for some cheap flex, move your shackle hanger forward for more angle and use a longer shackle on your stock springs.

Chopping another hole in the frame is exactly what I was hoping to avoid.
Doing the 52 swap is a piece of cake, as far as that goes I have no concerns.

From reading some of your other threads you're not ready for the price that comes with big flex. Even with the 52" swap you're looking at spending some money on shocks and a driveshaft, possibly even longer brake lines. Personally if you want big flex and reliability (and Im talking about spring life, not how good it does going to the grocery store) custom springs are the only way to go but they're spendy. In the end it doesn't matter how you go, more flex=more money.

From reading my posts, you might be misunderstanding me and my build. As a father of three, yes I have to save every dollar that I can, but as a fabricator for myself personally it is about building everything I can myself. I enjoy being able to say my truck is one of a kind, built by me. "You payed $100 for shackle flips?" "I made mine for $7 and a few welding rods." Get it? In the end I want to roll up next to the local WalMart heirs who spent $10K+ paying someone to build their Jeep, and laugh as I out perform them in my $300 driveway build.

It's not "big flex" that I'm after, just a little more will do because these springs are a bit stiff. If I wanted big flex, I would have already built links. I just want to keep it streetable.

I have all brand new extra long braided steel brake lines, so that's no issue.

As far as your shackle idea goes, others have told you its a bad idea. Do a search on revolver shackles. I remember when they were popular, especially with the jeep guys. Havent seen anybody running them in years.

Trust me, I appreciate all of you guys input, sometimes I just ask lots of questions to get a good understanding as to why this or that, don't take it personal, sometimes I'm trying to sort out what is actually fact and what's pure guess work.

Even I get my answers a bit mixed up sometimes, but I do try to fix them when I figure out where I went wrong.

If it won't work, it won't work. I can live with that. I'm just trying to wrap my head around why so I can accept it, and not waste a bunch of time trying something that won't work. But at the same time, sometimes there is a simple solution that is just waiting for someone who is thinking outside the box to give it a try.

You may not believe it but with the exception of brake lines, new U-bolts, brake pads, etc (maybe $300) after selling the left over parts that I took off, I have actually made all of the money back that I spent on the new axles , and I still have a spare 14bff to sell. Once I sell it I'm getting new body mounts, and hopefully a winch soon thereafter.

The long and short of it is that the more I can do myself without spending money on it the more I can spend on the things I can't make, and the less likely I am to end up having spent more on it than I can get back out of it.

I started with a 2 door Honda Civic with 200,000 and the motor going bad, traded straight across, and

 

[muddermilitia]

My old spring setup (52s with 7.25 shackle) allowed me to max out my 15" travel shocks (~12 down, ~3 up) I think that's more than enough flex

 

[AR_K5]

Here is a basic illustration of some of the various ideas that I had to further clarify.
*note* I did not include include stops in the drawings.
Just keep in mind that they would not be able to flip backwards.
The removable lock would be for driving on the road and would make it work just like it does now, with the exception of possible frame bump.

 

[muddermilitia]

Basically you are trying to make revolver shackles, but for the front springs. Revolver shackles are horrible and most people who put them on, end up taking them off after the 1st trip

 

[AR_K5]

My old spring setup (52s with 7.25 shackle) allowed me to max out my 15" travel shocks (~12 down, ~3 up) I think that's more than enough flex

Ya no doubt, I don't think this setup with my existing 46" springs would even travel as much as 52's. I was just trying to avoid cutting the extra holes in the frame and having to reconfigure the ride height again.

I may play around with it some, just to see, I just don't know at this point. I just figured maybe there was an 'in between' setup that might work for now.

 

[muddermilitia]

When you use a hole saw to cut the new hole, the scrap piece that comes out is the perfect size to weld shut the old one.

EDIT: that's if you upgrade the shackle hanger to the larger size (like DIY and ORD sell)

 

[AR_K5]

Basically you are trying to make revolver shackles, but for the front springs. Revolver shackles are horrible and most people who put them on, end up taking them off after the 1st trip

Yes basically that is what I was thinking, but rather than being out at the far rear end of the frame where there is the least amount of weight, I was wondering if they might work better on the front springs, toward the middle of the frame. I don't see how they could unload or change much of anything on flat ground or roads. Off angle may be another story.

It would seem that if a rear shackle flip (pushing the rear shackle hanger up 8") only gives you 4" lift (at the axle) then something like this wouldn't add so much travel that it would be a problem. But really I just don't know for sure, and won't unless I give it a try I guess.

 

[AR_K5]

Ok here are the results.
As you can see in the photo, I jacked it up with my Hi-Lift jack at the front of the frame until the front left tire was just barely off the ground and the distance between the factory mount on the frame and the aftermarket shock mount welded on the back of the axle parallel to the ground was 18.5". Off the jack, 16.5". Heck I'm not even sure what these front springs are, I wasn't the one who put them there. I just know the are way too stiff.

Now do you guys see why I am looking for at least an intermediate, if even temporary solution until I give in and do the full 52 swap?

 

[big dan]

From reading my posts, you might be misunderstanding me and my build. As a father of three, yes I have to save every dollar that I can, but as a fabricator for myself personally it is about building everything I can myself. I enjoy being able to say my truck is one of a kind, built by me. "You payed $100 for shackle flips?" "I made mine for $7 and a few welding rods." Get it? In the end I want to roll up next to the local WalMart heirs who spent $10K+ paying someone to build their Jeep, and laugh as I out perform them in my $300 driveway build.

Oh trust me, I totally understand. I myself am a certified cheap @$$. I spend as little as I possibly can. Mostly what I was getting at with that comment was that the more flex you add the more cost you add and it doesn't matter how you do it. More flex=more driveshaft+more shock+more brake line length+steering modification etc.

Ive ran 52s before, they require something other than a ground out factory driveshaft and I had to use limit straps with 15" travel shocks that were set up with 4" uptravel. 52s flex a lot. You've also got to figure in for spring replacements. Guys who run 52s seem to replace them often. On my current build I limited my flex specifically to keep cost down. Just something to think about.

And on a side note when I did my 52 swap I moved the spring hanger 2 inches (directly under the body mount) and did not move the shackle hanger and ran a 6" shackle. Had way more flex than I could handle.

 

[AR_K5]

And on a side note when I did my 52 swap I moved the spring hanger 2 inches (directly under the body mount) and did not move the shackle hanger and ran a 6" shackle. Had way more flex than I could handle.

Ok, that answers my next question which was going to be; Why can't I do the 52 swap and move only the front hanger?

As for the drive shaft, I flexed the poor old truck out pretty hard in some nasty trails and valley bottoms with a 10 bolt, the same springs and the same size tires and never had a lick of trouble out of either driveshaft (even had a dry U-joint). Keep in mind this high pinion axle has my front drive shaft up pretty close to it's factory angle as it sits now. In fact I'm worried it's going to smash into my headers.

It just sucks that I already have the brakes bled all that's left (on the front end) is mounting the new steering box and making a drag link for the crossover steering. I guess I will move the front mount and take my old sagging rear springs and mix in a few of these stout lower springs until I get the ride height the way I want it. Adding a custom built shackle would have been cooler and easier IMO.

Later down the road I'll spread the rear hangers out and put those 66" springs on the back, and that will give me a spare set of 52's for the front.

 

[AR_K5]

This was supposed to be a simple regear and shackle flip to remove the blocks. But when the rear diff exploded and the axle shopping began this whole thing spiraled out of control, and what was supposed to be a rusty old toy has turned into a full on custom build.

I'm not sure if I should or

Either way, I'm sorry if all of the posts are a bit too much at times, but I have learned a lot in the last few months, and I have tried my best to return the favor with the best info I can provide, and try to stay out of the way if I don't know.

Thanks again guys.