HP Dana 60 Front in '83 K5

[AR_K5]

Ya I'll figure out the header situation when I get to it.

But for now I'm going to be the one to take a shortcut and ask:
A: If you guys can identify who made my steering arm, and what tie rod end fits it.
B: What "end" fits the pitman arm on the new steering box?

 

[AR_K5]

That's the wrong pitman arm isn't it?

I believe I have identified Off Road Unlimited as the manufacturer of the steering arm.

 

[Fred_M1010]

Yes, that pitman arm is wrong.
Looks like a 4wd pitman from a -88 or newer truck.

That steering arm doesn't take the kingpin inclination axis into consideration.
(The tapered hole should be at a 10 degree angle)
It works on a street driven truck, but if you're gonna flex it much, you might bottom out the angle capability of your DLE...

 

[AR_K5]

Nope the steering box is off of a 2wd Chevy, I pulled it myself but I didn't think to check the exact year, but it had 2 square headlight grill with turn/marker lights below. If I have to I'll just go back and get the piece that was connected to it and just use it on the tie rod I picked to make the drag link with.

And you can't really see it in the photo but the top of the arm is angled.

 

[Fred_M1010]

Nope the steering box is off of a 2wd Chevy, I pulled it myself but I didn't think to check the exact year, but it had 2 square headlight grill with turn/marker lights below. If I have to I'll just go back and get the piece that was connected to it and just use it on the tie rod I picked to make the drag link with.

And you can't really see it in the photo but the top of the arm is angled.

Yes, older 2wd pitmans looks similar, when I think about it.
But it's the wrong type nevertheless.
It's a bad idea to use it, since it has almost no angle capability at all.


Don't use that old tie rod as a drag link.
When it's bent it gets much weaker, you'll want 1.5"x.219 DOM tube or something like that.
And the TRE:s on it probably can't handle much angle either.

I've tried cheaping out on parts like this, and learned the hard way that some things you just shouldn't cheap out on.
And steering is one of those things...

 

[AR_K5]

Nevermind, sorry I asked.

I guess having the capability to fabricate and weld means nothing, and makes me a cheap ass who just wires and tapes **** together, once again

I'm not buying a $300 piece of pipe with a name brand just to be cool, when I can make it just as well as anyone.

I just wanted to know about part numbers so I could get NEW ends, and maybe the right part number.

The end.

 

[Fred_M1010]

I'm not buying a $300 piece of pipe with a name brand just to be cool, when I can make it just as well as anyone.

Ehh, where did that come from?
If you think I'm recommending you to buy expensive stuff just to be cool, your really barking up the wrong tree...
Where did I write anything about a $300 drag link???
I just gave you an advice on what material to use...

What I said was:
1. don't use TRE's (or 2wd pitman) for the drag link since they don't have enough angle capability
2. don't use the tie-rod tube you found since it will be too weak, when used as a bent drag link, cause bends makes it much weaker.
But as you are an "experienced fabricator, and pretty good at understanding how things work."
That shouldn't come as a surprise


As for DLE's you can use stock Chevy DLE's.
If you want a shorter arm so you can place the first bend in the drag link closer to the steeringbox (to minimize crossmember interference),
you can get a special one that lokes like TRE, but have the angle capability of a DLE.
Offroad design has them, among others.

But you need another pitman arm.
A quick search on the subject should give you some alternatives.
Keep in mind that the length should match your steering arm, and don't use one with excessive drop if you don't have much lift, otherwise it can interfere with your leaf springs.

Most pitman arms requires you to grind off indexing tabs and/or reaming out the tapered hole to accept Chevy DLE's
Unless you buy one already modified by an offroad-shop.
I guess you could use an existing smaller taper though if you find the corresponding DLE for it.

There's no way of telling what taper your steering arm has from a picture.
Try inserting a Chevy DLE and see how it fits.

 

[ryoken]

your really barking up the wrong tree...

no sh*t...... you've built one of the most economy orientated, killer performing rigs out there...

 

[Blue85]

Nevermind, sorry I asked.

I guess having the capability to fabricate and weld means nothing, and makes me a cheap ass who just wires and tapes **** together, once again

I'm not buying a $300 piece of pipe with a name brand just to be cool, when I can make it just as well as anyone.

I just wanted to know about part numbers so I could get NEW ends, and maybe the right part number.

The end.

There are so many threads on here about crossover steering. It's fine to figure out your own way to do it, but as you go through that process you will just find the same limitations that dozens of others found doing the same thing. There really is no 100% junkyard solution unless you're willing to make some real compromises on the end system.

You want DLEs, not TREs, since DLEs work to about double the angle. The bad thing about Chevy DLEs is they are really long. This limits how close to the pitman arm you can put the bend in the drag link. So it hits the crossmember and you need to modify it or use a custom crossmember. This can usually be avoided by using the ORD DLEs, as they are built much shorter: U9016-P

Same story for the pitman arm. There is no stock pitman arm that works. The most common solution is reaming one with the right spline, or buying one from a vendor that way since the reamer costs more than the pitman arm: U9004.

 

[Fred_M1010]

no sh*t...... you've built one of the most economy orientated, killer performing rigs out there...

Thanks, that means a lot for me, especially coming from you! damn now I'm blushing
I wish I had your skills and patience though. I'm just cobbling stuff together, you're designing

 

[MTBLAZER89]

And just for arguments sake I had my last drag link made by a local shop for $100. I believe WFO sells a kit with ends fit around that price too. You just weld it together. He also carries steering arms and the pitman arm that you need tapered for dle or tle.

It's just steering we really should do it correctly.

 

[AR_K5]

Ok guys, first off I want to apologize for spouting off. I would explain but there's no need, I just got stressed and that was uncalled for.
Thanks for sticking with me guys.

Ok back to the build. I get what you are saying about the wrong pitman arm. Where we disagree is using the old tie rod to make a drag link. If it was made by Dana to be a tie rod, story ending it and welding a new end on it won't make it any weaker.

And for a little background on my fabrication experience. I used to build smoke stacks for power plants. We didn't assemble pieces we made the pieces and sent them to the job site. I can lay down a weld that will pass X-Ray inspections (meaning no defects or porosity). Trust me just because it's home built and costs less doesn't necessarily mean low quality or flimsy.

I'm haven't tried one yet to try but what about the pitman arm from an XJ or Grand Cherokee? They look to be the same as a drop pitman arm for our boxes, with the hole for a regular tie rod end.

I sent an email to the company that made the steering arm to find out what tie rod end fits. They sent a reply asking my why I'm using a Furd axle instead of a GM.... No recommendation on a tie rod end.

Here are some picture. (No I'm not using the tie rod end in the picture)
It's mocked up so you can get a better idea if what I'm working with and how it will fit.

I taped it for you guys (kind of making fun of myself)
Ignore the incorrect pitman arm, and length of the tie rod, I can fix that.
Note the double frame at the steering box (not my crappy welds)
And where the rod will be cut, it will really only have the one bend allowing the link to clear the crossmember. If for any reason I think it won't be stout enough I can "stiff back" it with a piece of angle iron.


Once again sorry for the outburst, and thanks for the advise, let's get this machine climbing again.

 

[MTBLAZER89]

That could work as a draglink, but how are you going to thread the end you cut?

I still suggest you just buy the pitman arm and strongly suggest buying a steering arm with the angle machined into it. See the angle your pass side TRE is at sitting static? You'll run out of angle as the passenger side flexes. A DLE on that side will help, but won't fix the problem.

Oh and that's just a weld in brace for the steering box. Most of us have that installed. The frame is very prone to cracking there and crossover makes it even worse.

 

[AR_K5]

That could work as a draglink, but how are you going to thread the end you cut?

I have a few options depending upon which end I use.
If it threads in place of the old one, I can just shorten the bar and reuse the already threaded part. If has a bigger threaded adjustable end, have a machinist or plumber thread it.

I still suggest you just buy the pitman arm and strongly suggest buying a steering arm with the angle machined into it. See the angle your pass side TRE is at sitting static? You'll run out of angle as the passenger side flexes. A DLE on that side will help, but won't fix the problem.

I get buying a pitman arm. Will do. Will one of the long ones like what is on a '94 Grand Cherokee work? (See: Crown part# 52005285)

Oh and that's just a weld in brace for the steering box. Most of us have that installed. The frame is very prone to cracking there and crossover makes it even worse.

Got it.
It was already there when I got the truck. I was just pointing it out before someone told me I needed one. You know it was coming. LOL

 

[AR_K5]

Given all that has been said, I'm starting to wonder if this crossover steering is worthwhile if it's so finicky. Surely even if it's not perfect, it will be better than the stock setup right, or should I expect it to snap off in the first dip if it's not exact?

 

[AR_K5]

...

 

[AR_K5]

My reason for getting excited over the ridiculous cost of aftermarket drag links. Here is the kit for mine.
http://www.offroadunlimited.com/orustore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=8242

 

[stan1688]

Given all that has been said, I'm starting to wonder if this crossover steering is worthwhile if it's so finicky. Surely even if it's not perfect, it will be better than the stock setup right, or should I expect it to snap off in the first dip if it's not exact?

Crossover is defiantly worth it. I've never heard of a crossover snapping of. It's much better than stock steering. One of the best mods that can be done to our rigs.

My reason for getting excited over the ridiculous cost of aftermarket drag links. Here is the kit for mine.
http://www.offroadunlimited.com/orustore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=8242

You don't necessarily need a whole kit (even if you did, a kit from ORD is $440). You could source the draglink ends from a number of different vendors while sourcing tubing yourself.

 

[AR_K5]

That was exactly my point, I get cost the arm due to the machine work that has to be done, but for what amounts to a $15 - 4' long pipe nipple (threaded internally), 2 - $30 drag link ends, and a $30 pitman arm. $440-500

With a little bit of leg work, and their own time, anyone can built the whole setup themselves for around $100 (not counting the steering arm). Of course I don't recommend that just and cubical dweller with a welder start making his own steering parts. But if you are an experienced welder who trusts their own work, there's not a whole lot to it.

My hang up is not knowing who knows what they are talking about and who just read somewhere online that some minor detail is a big deal. I'm going to be limiting travel (up and down), my Rancho's only have 11.5" of travel, and will have limit straps.

 

[Fred_M1010]

My crossover steering has costed me $65.99
That's what I gave for the pitman arm from WFO concepts (plus shipping).
With the help from a friend I built the rest from scrap metal, and used parts
I didn't succeed at first though since i skimped out on the drag link material.
So yes, I know what I'm talking about, since I've made that mistake myself

Ok back to the build. I get what you are saying about the wrong pitman arm. Where we disagree is using the old tie rod to make a drag link. If it was made by Dana to be a tie rod, story ending it and welding a new end on it won't make it any weaker.

You're missing one point though.
A tie rod is only transferring force to one wheel, while a drag link transfers force to both wheels.
It's possible a tie rod might hold up as a drag link anyway, but only as long as it's perfectly straight, and used for mild wheeling only.
I'd cut off the threaded parts only (if they fit the drag links you're gonna use), and stick them in and weld them to a beefier tube.

A stock tie rod doesn't even hold up very well when used as a tie rod,
if you're gonna do any wheeling with it.
You just need one rock to make a slight bend in it, and it will go south in no time.
That's also from experience...

Take a look in my build thread if you want more lessons in what not to do...