CK5
Register an account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members.

Improving Fuel Economy

All great advice!

Except the fuel injector replacement? I've yet to see one that could not be serviced by a Injector Service like Mr Injector. OK, I know someone will say they had a bad one...

Servicing them does make a world of difference! I've watched flow and pattern change during the procedure.
 
Another thing that warrants discussion is your check engine light.

Is it on? On a TBI rig, a CEL often will allow you to determine what sensor, etc. isn't functioning properly. I've ignored intermittent lights, and have cost myself MAJOR in the MPG department.

So, check your OBDI codes via the light, even if its not on. There may be a hidden problem lurking. Mine was an 02 sensor. After header install, my 02 wasn't functioning properly, and i was getting about 8.5mpg. Upgrading to a heated O2 got me back up to 12.5

Thats 50% Better!
 
Didn't have time to read article but if it is backing up what your saying it is wrong for EFI! Correct for a carb if you don't increase timing. Premium fuel will also allow more timing, ECM checks timing with forced knock test. Newer then these ECMs are even better at this.

The premium will only increase MPG on highway cruises, does not help in town.

Add a HighWay Lean Cruise Patch to your chip (bin) and a little tweaking to tune and I added 20% highway MPG! :D
That's a big discussion, really. And the bottom line is that if we're talking about better MPG, the assumption is that we are trying to save money on our old TBI trucks, not new EFI vehicles, right?

Let's compare the bottom line: Cost to operate.

Regular gas : $3.69
Premium gas: $3.93

These are local prices for me, today. Premium gas is about 10% more expensive than regular. Therefore, if using premium gas nets me more than 10% better MPG then it would be worth it to use. Assuming 15 MPG for our trucks, that would mean I would have to get MORE THAT 1.5 MPG better, so I would need to be getting 16.5+ MPG to justify the cost. I'd want to see 17-18 MPG.

Can you tell me what MPG you got using regular versus premium? I'd be curious to see if it was justified.

As far as the patch, that is interesting but it has some drawbacks that I see. If your engine runs hotter, you probably will damage your catalytic converter. In addition, running too hot causes a variety of damages to your engine, such as:

> increased cylinder temps which doesn't keep the pistons cool

> oil washed off the cylinder walls, causing excessive friction between the cylinder wall and pistons

> knock, which is basically spontaneous combustion (pre-igniting before the spark plug fires) which is why you now need premium gas. Does the engine in question even have a knock sensor? I don't know when GM started using them in our trucks, but if the engine doesn't retard the timing when it knocks you could be in big trouble. Knock (detonation, pre-ignition) that is not fixed causes major and catastrophic engine damage.

> melted pistons

> excessive NOx emissions

> overheated exhaust manifold, causing cracking

Sure, GM didn't enable this because of excessive emissions, but that can't be the only reason. Chances are it was more than just that, and it came down to long term reliability. I'll pass on risking melting my pistons for a 3 MPG gain on the freeway.
 
All great advice!

Except the fuel injector replacement? I've yet to see one that could not be serviced by a Injector Service like Mr Injector. OK, I know someone will say they had a bad one...

Servicing them does make a world of difference! I've watched flow and pattern change during the procedure.
Great advice. Dirty injectors are just as bad.

I personally like to put new ones in any K5 I have bought so I know they are as good as possible. Fuel does wear out injectors over time, just like water polishing rocks in a river. If they have 100k miles on them the metal in the injector cone will be "washed" away causing a bad spray pattern. You can't fix that!
 
Can you tell me what MPG you got using regular versus premium? I'd be curious to see if it was justified.

He stated a 20% increase, so that is double what you said is required to make it worth it.


> increased cylinder temps which doesn't keep the pistons cool

> oil washed off the cylinder walls, causing excessive friction between the cylinder wall and pistons

> knock, which is basically spontaneous combustion (pre-igniting before the spark plug fires) which is why you now need premium gas

> melted pistons

> excessive NOx emissions

> overheated exhaust manifold, causing cracking

Sure, GM didn't enable this because of excessive emissions, but that can't be the only reason. Chances are it was more than just that, and it came down to long term reliability. I'll pass on risking melting my pistons for a 3 MPG gain on the freeway.

We've (or maybe just me now) been working (not a priority) on measuring the oil temps when lean cruise is implemented. My truck can run lean cruise, but until I can log the oil temps, I don't want to run it. I've got a factory engine oil cooler, part of my impetus for testing oil temps is to find out the effectiveness of the engine oil cooler. I will do back to back testing of with oil cooler/without oil cooler, and oil temp increases with highway mode enabled.

Carbed folks, unless they are running an added O2 sensor, are simply assuming the engine isn't running lean.
 
True, 20% is great, but what are the risks.

I am not sure how oil temps directly relate to cylinder temps. I mean, sure they are somewhat related, but you have to remember the temp in the combustion chamber may be so hot that the oil isn't present, causing problems.

The killers of engines are lack of oil, high temps, and knock. Running lean seems to be inviting disaster... I say this only because I destroyed the 5.7 in my K30 many years ago due to running lean in search of better performance. Apparently there was not enough oil and I experienced a soft-seized engine. Boy, that was a lot of smoke coming out the exhaust ... :o

This is a great conversation BTW! :D
 
That's a big discussion, really. And the bottom line is that if we're talking about better MPG, the assumption is that we are trying to save money on our old TBI trucks, not new EFI vehicles, right?

Let's compare the bottom line: Cost to operate.

Regular gas : $3.69
Premium gas: $3.93

These are local prices for me, today. Premium gas is about 10% more expensive than regular. Therefore, if using premium gas nets me more than 10% better MPG then it would be worth it to use. Assuming 15 MPG for our trucks, that would mean I would have to get 1.5 MPG better, so I would need to be getting 16.5 MPG to justify the cost.

Can you tell me what MPG you got using regular versus premium? I'd be curious to see if it was justified.

As far as the patch, that is interesting but it has some drawbacks that I see. If your engine runs hotter, you probably will damage your catalytic converter. In addition, running too hot causes a variety of damages to your engine, such as:

> increased cylinder temps which doesn't keep the pistons cool

> oil washed off the cylinder walls, causing excessive friction between the cylinder wall and pistons

> knock, which is basically spontaneous combustion (pre-igniting before the spark plug fires) which is why you now need premium gas

> melted pistons

> excessive NOx emissions

> overheated exhaust manifold, causing cracking

Sure, GM didn't enable this because of excessive emissions, but that can't be the only reason. Chances are it was more than just that, and it came down to long term reliability. I'll pass on risking melting my pistons for a 3 MPG gain on the freeway.

Highway Lean cruise was in the code of most early ECMs from GM. It was used to increase milage for CAFE regs and fleet averages. Goverment caught them and said it was an emmissions defeating device and GM had to disable it. Had nothing to do with engine damage! Come on, these guys are good... it is well within limits of safe operation.

Your fears of using it are warrented, you can screw up an engine many ways including tuning the chip worng. But Lean Cruise has been used by many people for many miles and 25 years without issue. Just like a tune, have to do it right!

I get 17ish regular and 19ish premium. I can get 22+ on highway tweaking AFR and timing but EGT get to high to call it safe. I also don't try to get better milage with driving, I set cruise control at 65 to 70 and leave it there. If I were to slow down for mountain grades and speed up or coast going downhill I'm sure there would be improvements.

This is a 2wd Suburban, don't expect to get this much with 4wd, big tires, 1000 pounds of roll bars and armour etc...
 
Proper thermostat - this is crucial. If you are running too cold (160 carb, 180 TBI) then your engine never reaches proper operating temps. This means significantly worse efficiency and bad MPG. It's like driving with your choke on all the time. It also causes breakdown in the oil and other issues that cause premature engine wear. More.

Actually heat=power. A 195* is what GM spec'd. It's as much for emissions as it is performance AND engine wear. Metals expand and contract based on heat, tolerances are factored considering "growth". Obviously you can't go ridiculous like 300* engine temps, but increased cylinder temperature equals more power. (think about what makes premium required in a high compression engine)

A good example is aluminum heads. Due to their heat sink characteristics, typically more timing and compression is required to produce as much power as iron heads, all else being equal. Plenty of testing to back that up.


Intake that draws cooler air from outside of the engine bay (usually via the snorkel tube). Cold air is more dense than warm air. Therefore, cold air holds more oxygen and hot air holds less oxygen. Oxygen is what burns. If you want better performance, get more oxygen into the engine (like a turbocharger) that is cooler.

Making sure the intake tract (intake, air cleaner, filter, throttle body/carb, etc) isn't a restriction is what increases MPG. Hot air keeps the atomized fuel from falling out of suspension on a wet intake system such as TBI and carbs.

If you increase the volume of air entering the engine, you must also proportionally increase the volume of fuel added to the intake charge. That's what lean is. A computer will adjust to this for you, on a carb you need to have your jetting right. Net increase in efficiency from cooler intake charge has to be zero.

Super and turbo chargers (and to a lesser extent cold air intake) make more power because they increase the amount of air/fuel the cylinder is filled with. It doesn't change the ratio of air/fuel required, except when you start getting into volumetric efficiency, efficiency of the forced induction, and so on. You may be doubling (WAG) the amount of air/fuel put into the chamber, but that is why fueling them is so critical...the super/turbocharger adds more air, without adding the extra fuel, you burn the motor up.

Good spark plug wires. Restrictive wires mean less power.

Good coil. Is your coil giving 50% power? You are losing efficiency.

There are plenty of test out there that showed under normal (what I'll consider non-racing) conditions, an old HEI unit, with old stock-type wires, made just as much power as a new MSD setup. I believe that particular test was in a four wheeler magazine as a matter of fact. The simple fact is, ignition needs to be in good condition, which is what you are getting at. HEI however, is extremely forgiving. No excuse to have a bad plug, wire, or corroded cap/rotor terminals.


Stock exhaust manifolds are typically very restrictive. If you can get equal length headers (to maintain proper backpressure and exhaust scavenging) that can help tremendously.

Backpressure is bad. Backpressure is NEVER desirable. Backpressure prevents scavenging. backpressure and scavenging are two separate animals. If you have exhaust backpressure, engine vacuum increases, same as if you had too small of a carb. The engine has to work harder to expel the exhaust out of the cylinder. Scavenging is essentially suction through a tube....you can't have suction if there is pressure the other direction.

As a matter of point, one GM test for clogged exhaust is to tap into the exhaust system before the converter and measure pressure at WOT. If anything over 2-3PSI, there is a problem.

Another test is to measure intake vacuum at WOT. If intake vacuum increases, you have a restriction somewhere.

I hope you don't take this as a direct attack. It's not intended that way. This thread is about economy, there is a ton to consider about it, since much is related to engine efficiency.
 
Last edited:
Backpressure is bad. Backpressure is NEVER desirable. Backpressure prevents scavenging. backpressure and scavenging are two separate animals. If you have exhaust backpressure, engine vacuum increases, same as if you had too small of a carb. The engine has to work harder to expel the exhaust out of the cylinder.


I noted that part of Jesse's post too. There is a GREAT article posted on this forum somewhere in regards to backpressure vs scavenging.

I forget all the details, but its out there, and very interesting.
 
Yup, I agree with everything mentioned. All I was trying to say was properly tuned engines work best. Too cold = poor efficiency. Bad parts = problems. Restrictive exhaust or too open = problems. It's the basic stuff that a lot of us forget about. We sometimes make changes and don't think about the bigger picture, or we don't know why something is designed the way it is.

I was having problems in my Mini Cooper, for example, and opened the hood to find that some critter chewed through one of my spark plug wires and it was arching to the block. My new-to-me K5 had rusted water instead of a coolant/distilled water mix. It's that kind of stuff we need to check for on occasion.

I know you guys are not attacking me, no worries! This is in fact the ONLY forum where I know everyone is just being cool and trying to discuss things so everyone learns. :bow:

I'm curious about the lean patch thing. Is that documented somewhere?
 
I am not sure how oil temps directly relate to cylinder temps. I mean, sure they are somewhat related, but you have to remember the temp in the combustion chamber may be so hot that the oil isn't present, causing problems.

Oil IS the coolant for the pistons, which is why high oil temperatures will have the engine come apart on you.

I don't know which motors do, but some (diesels? VW?) inject oil onto the piston to cool it, instead of splash oiling which I believe is how a SBC oils them. It's been awhile since I've had an SBC apart.

But if I remember my engine design correctly, the top of the cylinder (not head) is surrounded by cooling jackets where the heat is made, while the bottom of the cylinder is not.
 
Ok, that makes sense. Now that I think about it, my GMC Typhoon had oil squirters in the cylinder bores and sprayed oil on the underside of the pistons to cool them. It all makes sense now! :D







Oh yeah, that truck was a BEAST! :haha:
 
Check it out over at gearhead-efi.com, it's elsewhere, but Mark was very helpful in getting me set up with it. Not sure if it's really "documented" like you'd see in a service manual, since apparently GM got slapped for trying to use it.

The article Darren is thinking of I *bet* is "exhaust science demystified" or something along those lines, by David Vizard. Hotrod? Car Craft? google will get you to it.

He also happens to be the guy that disproves the whole "over carbureted" myth.
 
That may be one of the reasons that newer motors (my 2004 for instance) can run 10:1+ compression on 87 octane. Makes sense to me, if you can keep the cylinder walls cool enough, AND the piston cool enough, higher compression is probably much easier to attain before the fuel ignites itself.

That is, IMO, why oil temperature testing of lean cruise would be so interesting...see exactly how lean you can go before the oil temp really starts increasing. And honestly, if the oil cooling of the pistons isn't efficient (splash?) then oil temp still may not be a reliable indicator of whether the engine is "safe" or not...piston temps might go up exponentially, but exponentially more oil is not being introduced to the piston, therefore they might not follow each other. But either way, at least you know you aren't in a temperature range that is leading to oil break down.
 
Wasn't trying to restart the regular vs. premium debate i just meant our ethanol blended gas here sucks. our premium mileage wise is comparable to another states unblend pure regular.
 
It all factors into economy, so I think it's good. Ethanol does decrease MPG, so on top of it being a waste of resources and energy to produce, you get less mileage too! Trifecta!
 
great discussion guys

I'm just carbed so I guess my options are more limited. I will run through that checklist of basic stuff just to make sure I'm doing all I can. I love checklists, CK5 should make some more.

I did just switch to a 180* tstat, just because it was routinely running warmer than 210 with the 195*. a little early to tell, but it seems like the 180* might do the trick.
 
I have a question about the lean burn thing ... while it exists in the software, were there any physical difference to the engine, or none, and can that be documented and proven?

I ask this because I was thinking about my Typhoon with the oil squirters. How do I know that the ECU change was also not accompanied by some mechanical addition like oil squirters? If I enable it without other possible required safeguards, it would be foolish and probably cause long term damage.
 
Top Bottom