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johnny joint frame end of front shackle

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Blazinaire

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Anyone here ever weld a johnny joint or the likes in the frame as a front upper shackle mount? I need to move my upper shackle mount back about 3" to accommodate my custom front springs (they turned out to be a bit longer than anticipated when compressed flat:tongue1:) and I would have substantial interference with the body mount if I tried to install the factory upper hanger there. I was thinking along the lines of a ballistic fab 3" joint welded inside the frame rail at the bottom of the channel. Pros/ cons/ alternatives appreciated.
 
mrdrinksalil said:
Georgiagabe did something similar in the rear way back.

link

http://coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189187
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The issue with that is that it offers no lateral stability on the road. It'll feel like your truck dives into turns with the body roll. If you do do it make sure you cross tie your shackles.

You've got my vote on the idea seeing as how thats how toyotas came from the factory with SFA but they use a DOM/bushing combo type approach.
 
Is better on the road than you'd think. Far better down the road than my truck. We drove his to all the trail heads in moab with no issues. It's a trail truck so all things considered it works great.
 
mrdrinksalil said:
Is better on the road than you'd think. Far better down the road than my truck. We drove his to all the trail heads in moab with no issues. It's a trail truck so all things considered it works great.
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What the hell truck am I thinking of that did this and the truck would never sit flat again then? The ass just flopped over to one side no matter what.
 
As far as lateral stability, I am also working on adding a trac bar (panhard bar) up front so hopefully that will keep the rear of the springs from stepping out. The plan at the moment is to use a 3" Ballistic joint and weld it to their frame mounts (looks like an upside down spring perch.) I'm thinking that I could weld nuts inside of the bracket and make it bolt on using 4 bolts from the bottom of the frame upwards and 2 bolts from the side of the frame inwards. I will be ordering parts by the end of the week, I am a slow builder so don't hold your breath!
 
Making a little progress. I plated a 2' section of the underside of the frame with 3/16" x 1 1/2" centered under the 3" hole I just drilled in the frame to keep it it from stretching. I had to notch the body mount in order to place the ballistic joint where I wanted it, so that it just touches the back of the factory upper shackle hole. I am using the factory hole as access to the set screw and grease fitting for the joint. I cut a piece of 1/8" plate to fit inside the frame rail and box it in and then welded the cup inside and out on the plate and outside only on the existing frame. With the joint installed I then sleeved the I.D. down from 3/4" to 9/16" so that all of my hardware matches at all 4 corners.

I've only finished the driver's side so I don't know if there is any difference in flex yet (not that I need any more) but the front end still cycles 19" vertically (without shocks, 17" with) only now without the spring slamming into the frame. After the passenger side is done I still need to make my track bar before I can see how it all works.
 
Blazinaire said:
As far as lateral stability, I am also working on adding a trac bar (panhard bar) up front so hopefully that will keep the rear of the springs from stepping out. The plan at the moment is to use a 3" Ballistic joint and weld it to their frame mounts (looks like an upside down spring perch.) I'm thinking that I could weld nuts inside of the bracket and make it bolt on using 4 bolts from the bottom of the frame upwards and 2 bolts from the side of the frame inwards. I will be ordering parts by the end of the week, I am a slow builder so don't hold your breath!
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The panhard bar is going to limit flex, even more so with only one bushing to take up the inherent bind that a panhard will have with leaves.

Interested to see your results.
 
I have done this on the rear of trucks, longer wheelbases work better with it shorter ones get floppy. On the front of the truck the main problem I see with it is the fact that your body can and will flop over into a rock. If you are not rockcrawling in tight quarters then it will be fine, but if the rocks are tight you are going to run your body into alot more stuff then you wanted to.
 
38377k5 said:
The panhard bar is going to limit flex, even more so with only one bushing to take up the inherent bind that a panhard will have with leaves.

Interested to see your results.
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The way that I'm seeing it, the swivel of the joint in the frame should compliment the arc/motion that the axle will now want to swing in with the panhard as they will (in conjuction with the length of the shackle) allow the end of the spring to swing from one side to the other without having to deflect a bushing. The loss in flex should be minimal as this could tap out all 4 16" travel shocks when articulated so it wouldn't hurt my feelings to lose some in favor of more predictable handling.

The panhard was going in either way to combat the steering pushing/pulling the body before turning the tires, so I see this as a win win.

As far as tight rock trails, I am not trying to make a dedicated rock rig so much as an all around performer. I've wheeled Moab several times and had no complaints on trails like Pritchett Canyon so that is good enough for me there. I'm trying to tighten up the steering and get the suspension to react more consistently for our higher speed desert explorations. A rear sway bar is also on the short list.
 
One other issue you will have, if you are in fact welding the flex joint to the underside of the frame. You must box that area of the frame in. No question in this. I have done a suspension where we did that, didn't take to long for the shackle mount to rip off the frame.

There is just to much flex in a [ shape. I eventually boxed in and added some gussets on the inside of the frame

Speaking strictly on what I have done on the rear, it will make the truck wallow a bit more. That is what the guys who have had a normal setup and then we put the flex joint on say. So basically the flex joint is the only change
 
Blazinaire said:
The way that I'm seeing it, the swivel of the joint in the frame should compliment the arc/motion that the axle will now want to swing in with the panhard as they will (in conjuction with the length of the shackle) allow the end of the spring to swing from one side to the other without having to deflect a bushing. The loss in flex should be minimal as this could tap out all 4 16" travel shocks when articulated so it wouldn't hurt my feelings to lose some in favor of more predictable handling.
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The panhard and springs won't flex in the same arc no matter what you do. If you ran flex joints at both ends with a panhard the suspension wouldn't flex at all. The axle has to move side to side during flex with a panhard and without bushings it won't be able to do that.
 
blazinzuk said:
One other issue you will have, if you are in fact welding the flex joint to the underside of the frame. You must box that area of the frame in. No question in this.
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I actually have the joint welded inside of the frame in a similar position to how the factory upper shackle mount was. The cup of the joint is set on the bottom rail (inside the frame channel) and then boxed in. I only boxed a 1' section as that was all that was realistic without dropping the tranny. The 3/16" plate I added to the bottom of the frame was just some additional insurance to help keep the frame from stretching or pulling apart around the welds on the cup. The bottom plate may not have been necessary but it helps me sleep at night.
 
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