My "Official" Stepside Restoration Thread and LS Swap 2021

[broflow]

I've narrowed it down to 3 possible
1. Summit Stage 2 Truck cam:
218/227 duration, 0.523"/0.524" lift, and 112 LSA
2. Elgin "Sloppy Stage 1" (or Stage 1.5 depending on who you ask) 1839-P
220/224 duration, 0.575"/0.575" lift, and 112 LSA
3. Elgin Sloppy Stage 2 1840-P
228/230 duration, 0.585"/0.585" lift, and 112 LSA

The summit cam is winning in my head currently although the Elgin Sloppy Stage 1 is very close to it. Closer duration split but higher lift. It's probably a wash power wise but the Summit may have a tamer lobe design that's better for long term valve train reliability. However, not that that really matters as I'd never see the kind of miles where it would make a difference. Both cams have stronger bottom ends with gains up to 6500rpm.

The Sloppy Stage 2 is interesting to me as it's now the default cam for most budget LS stuff. It supposedly gains power everywhere including the bottom end but I have seen some conflicting reviews of the bottom end gains. This is a graph right from Sloppy Mechanics from a stock 4.8 and it gained 102hp while still gaining slightly down low and that's on a the smaller 4.8! I'd think the 5.3 with the longer stroke would be better down low.
The tradeoffs are that idle would be a bit rougher and could be slightly harder to tune but there's plenty of people on the internet that have tuned this cam to behave pretty well.

View attachment 369287

I think back 25 years ago when I was mud racing in street stock classes and we had to pull a certain amount of vaccum at idle to make the class it seems like 230 duration @.50 was about the most we could get away with on old school small blocks.
It seems like that's the range for a good all around LS build now too?

I'm trying to read up all I can right now on engine builds like yours. I've got an 2005 6.0 for my k-30 that I have waiting for new cam.



So would you be running a better spring with any or all of your cam choices?

 

[Chevy305]

I think back 25 years ago when I was mud racing in street stock classes and we had to pull a certain amount of vaccum at idle to make the class it seems like 230 duration @.50 was about the most we could get away with on old school small blocks.
It seems like that's the range for a good all around LS build now too?

I'm trying to read up all I can right now on engine builds like yours. I've got an 2005 6.0 for my k-30 that I have waiting for new cam.



So would you be running a better spring with any or all of your cam choices?

A lot of that still remains true today. 230 duration is still the cut off I'd say for having decent manners on the street. The tuning capability in the modern efi systems does help to smooth out idle more than you could with a carb though so that helps.

 

[Chevy305]

Your just cam swapping or are you doing other things to it?

Right now just cam swapping. I may do a TBSS intake swap but that's if the budget allows. I can always do that later, although it would be easier to do now while the harness is on the workbench since some sensors get moved slightly and the injectors use different connectors. The manifold itself can be had new for around $100 but the fuel rail and injectors are another $250-$350. For the TB I already have a spare 4 bolt throttle body so that part is free, although I still need the X-Link adapter harness for $75ish so its a total of $4-500 to do the swap for about 15-20hp.

 

[beags86]

Right now just cam swapping. I may do a TBSS intake swap but that's if the budget allows. I can always do that later, although it would be easier to do now while the harness is on the workbench since some sensors get moved slightly and the injectors use different connectors. The manifold itself can be had new for around $100 but the fuel rail and injectors are another $250-$350. For the TB I already have a spare 4 bolt throttle body so that part is free, although I still need the X-Link adapter harness for $75ish so its a total of $4-500 to do the swap for about 15-20hp.

I literally was looking at the tbss intake for a friend a few days ago. 130 from rock auto, and you can buy an aftermarket fuel rail with an crossover for 89. Just Google.

 

[Coontail]

Be sure to check out richard holdener on youtube if you haven't already, he's done a ton of dyno tests with ls engines

 

[beags86]

Be sure to check out richard holdener on youtube if you haven't already, he's done a ton of dyno tests with ls engines

Problem with holdener is he just spews data with no foundation.
I've never seen much that was very in depth or very scientific. So as long as you can match the exact setup he's running it's basically worthless content. I have increasingly seen him becoming under more fire for not substantiating his testing.
That said if your building from scratch you could find an engine you liked and build it similar. But I don't think that guestimate would replace your own dyno test/tune.

 

[Chevy305]

Problem with holdener is he just spews data with no foundation.
I've never seen much that was very in depth or very scientific. So as long as you can match the exact setup he's running it's basically worthless content. I have increasingly seen him becoming under more fire for not substantiating his testing.
That said if your building from scratch you could find an engine you liked and build it similar. But I don't think that guestimate would replace your own dyno test/tune.

He's not the most scientific like Engine Masters but he does give some useful data. For one his intake manifold comparison is great. And i watch for a lot of his camshaft videos as well. His videos are pretty much what steered me to the Stage 2 Summit cam instead of going with a Stage 3 or 4.

 

[beags86]

He's not the most scientific like Engine Masters but he does give some useful data. For one his intake manifold comparison is great. And i watch for a lot of his camshaft videos as well. His videos are pretty much what steered me to the Stage 2 Summit cam instead of going with a Stage 3 or 4.

I guess I shouldn't have said its worthless. But I definitely like a more thought out approach to the testing like engine masters.
According to David Freiburger holdener rents dnyo time from westech at night. And cranks out test after test.
I think that's why he talks about the testing in another location most times. But again. It's a quality vs quantity debate.
Cranking out of a ton a content doesn't make it quality.

FWIW, I'd go with the stage 3

 

[folkenheath]

A lot of that still remains true today. 230 duration is still the cut off I'd say for having decent manners on the street. The tuning capability in the modern efi systems does help to smooth out idle more than you could with a carb though so that helps.

Don't forget many of the LS cams have a larger LSA which not only makes it easier for the EFI to work, it also decreases overlap, smooths the idle, flattens the power curve, and increases vacuum. So you can get away with a little more duration with a higher LSA. I tight LSA may make more peak power and possible be faster in a race car where they can hold a certain RPM window the entire race, but its also more picky with cam timing. The flatter torque curve of the wide LSA will likely benefit your heavy truck. I'd probably move up to a 114 LSA with a little more duration with your setup. My app can calculate overlap from the base cam specs if you want to see the overlap of the different cams.

I also believe the factory rockers are limited to about .550 lift, although I have never confirmed that myself by testing that theory, I usually get different rockers to at higher lift as you gain the roller tip anyway. I think the valve springs have to be replaced either way if I remember correctly.

More stroke or cubes helps hide the cam too as it can try to pull more air in even if the cam was exactly the same.

I am not a fan of these "Stage 2 or 3 cams". It reminds me of the old "3/4 race" stuff. This is 2021, you have so many more options to choose from or even custom is almost the same cost, rather than only 3 different stages/choices. That Stage 2 cam may work great for one vehicle but not another even if the rest of the engine was exactly the same.

You definitely have to be more careful with your choice as with the manual transmission its going to be highly dependent on gearing since you can't cover up the low end with the converter.

Also, my father may have a used TBSS intake with rails and injectors just sitting there since he swapped to a 4150 TB to put the LS2 in a 63 Nova. I can ask him if he'll sell it if you are interested?

Speaking of which, the Holley Terminator X basically tuned itself with his cam, and it was in the 230/240 split duration range, but that was a 402 (4" stroker crank). I programmed the timing and never touched the fueling from the Holley LS base table.

 

[Bent77]

@6872xtc here's a better explanation to the LSA conversation we had Friday

 

[78SWB]

Hey at least you’re still going to have some fun and enjoy the truck. Better than getting bored of it and selling it. I support this swap!

 

[Bent77]

Better than getting bored of it and selling it.

Man this nails it. Regardless of anyone’s opinion on engine choice, means nothing if it sits

 

[Chevy305]

Don't forget many of the LS cams have a larger LSA which not only makes it easier for the EFI to work, it also decreases overlap, smooths the idle, flattens the power curve, and increases vacuum. So you can get away with a little more duration with a higher LSA. I tight LSA may make more peak power and possible be faster in a race car where they can hold a certain RPM window the entire race, but its also more picky with cam timing. The flatter torque curve of the wide LSA will likely benefit your heavy truck. I'd probably move up to a 114 LSA with a little more duration with your setup. My app can calculate overlap from the base cam specs if you want to see the overlap of the different cams.

I also believe the factory rockers are limited to about .550 lift, although I have never confirmed that myself by testing that theory, I usually get different rockers to at higher lift as you gain the roller tip anyway. I think the valve springs have to be replaced either way if I remember correctly.

More stroke or cubes helps hide the cam too as it can try to pull more air in even if the cam was exactly the same.

I am not a fan of these "Stage 2 or 3 cams". It reminds me of the old "3/4 race" stuff. This is 2021, you have so many more options to choose from or even custom is almost the same cost, rather than only 3 different stages/choices. That Stage 2 cam may work great for one vehicle but not another even if the rest of the engine was exactly the same.

You definitely have to be more careful with your choice as with the manual transmission its going to be highly dependent on gearing since you can't cover up the low end with the converter.

Also, my father may have a used TBSS intake with rails and injectors just sitting there since he swapped to a 4150 TB to put the LS2 in a 63 Nova. I can ask him if he'll sell it if you are interested?

Speaking of which, the Holley Terminator X basically tuned itself with his cam, and it was in the 230/240 split duration range, but that was a 402 (4" stroker crank). I programmed the timing and never touched the fueling from the Holley LS base table.

If your dad has a TBSS intake and rails sitting around I'd be happy to relieve him of the burden of storage.

I also hate the "Stage 2, 3, 4" nonsense. It's effective marketing for the more money than brains crowd that will immediately jump to the Stage 4 for their front lifted skinny mud tire trucks because bigger is always better...
But if you just ignore the name and look at the cam specs it's easier to compare.

For LSA, the research I've been doing shows me the tighter LSA helps bottom end power. It moves the torque curve lower. I'm not afraid of a lopy idle but I would like to minimize surging when putting around a parking lot.

I haven't heard anything about the factory rockers being limited to anything lift wise. It's always the valve springs that are the limiting factor for cams in the LS. The rockers do have needle bearings that can fail and fill your engine with tiny shards of metal but that's not a major risk for my application.

 

[folkenheath]

If your dad has a TBSS intake and rails sitting around I'd be happy to relieve him of the burden of storage.

I also hate the "Stage 2, 3, 4" nonsense. It's effective marketing for the more money than brains crowd that will immediately jump to the Stage 4 for their front lifted skinny mud tire trucks because bigger is always better...
But if you just ignore the name and look at the cam specs it's easier to compare.

For LSA, the research I've been doing shows me the tighter LSA helps bottom end power. It moves the torque curve lower. I'm not afraid of a lopy idle but I would like to minimize surging when putting around a parking lot.

I haven't heard anything about the factory rockers being limited to anything lift wise. It's always the valve springs that are the limiting factor for cams in the LS. The rockers do have needle bearings that can fail and fill your engine with tiny shards of metal but that's not a major risk for my application.

When you say tighter LSA are you referring to the 112? Because that's not really tight, I think 108 is getting tight. And I would not expect better bottom end torque from a tighter LSA. Maybe a lower ICL, where you advance the cam more, but not a tighter LSA. A tighter LSA has more overlap and is usually better for peak power, not bottom end. I'm not saying its not possible I'm just saying its not usual. Because its not better for the engine at low speed for both valves to be open at the same time for a longer period. Now if its a small duration cam where the overlap is small anyway, then it might be possible because the intake valve is opening earlier essentially. Its always a balance, of course as you increase duration you would need a wider LSA just to maintain the same overlap.

I don't recommend a tighter LSA for a 4WD truck.

Also, its not like once you go over .550 lift the rocker won't work, it just starts to cause a lot more guide wear because of how much the rocker is sliding on the tip, although the steel stock valve guides can probably take it, and you won't be driving a lot of miles anyway.

 

[Chevy305]

When you say tighter LSA are you referring to the 112? Because that's not really tight, I think 108 is getting tight. And I would not expect better bottom end torque from a tighter LSA. Maybe a lower ICL, where you advance the cam more, but not a tighter LSA. A tighter LSA has more overlap and is usually better for peak power, not bottom end. I'm not saying its not possible I'm just saying its not usual. Because its not better for the engine at low speed for both valves to be open at the same time for a longer period. Now if its a small duration cam where the overlap is small anyway, then it might be possible because the intake valve is opening earlier essentially. Its always a balance, of course as you increase duration you would need a wider LSA just to maintain the same overlap.

I don't recommend a tighter LSA for a 4WD truck.

Also, its not like once you go over .550 lift the rocker won't work, it just starts to cause a lot more guide wear because of how much the rocker is sliding on the tip, although the steel stock valve guides can probably take it, and you won't be driving a lot of miles anyway.

I'm referring to 112 LSA as tight when compared to factory LS cams with LSAs in the 116-122 range. I'll poke around in your app with my current cam choices and see what they get.

 

[Chevy305]

Holdner did an LSA comparison and the tighter LSA made the most power. Engine Masters did the basically the same test but had more discussion about what is actually occurring at the valve. Their test showed the same results though, tighter LSA made more power across majority of the curve.

 

[Chevy305]

Here's my current selection of cams run in Heath's app:

1. Summit Stage 2 Truck Cam



2. Elgin Sloppy Stage 1.5



3. Elgin Sloppy Stage 2

 

[folkenheath]

When just looking at overlap I like to use the advertised duration, not the .050". Because the .050 is a better measure of duration for comparing one cam to another as far as performance, but when you are talking about idle quality and overlap, when the valve actually opens and closes it is more important, not when its at .050" lift for airflow. You'll see actual overlap at the advertised duration. The only thing you have to be careful with there is it varies as there is no standard. Most hydraulic cams are about .006" lift.

Holdener definitely likes to go to extremes, which is good for a bigger results (and views) I suppose. I think the main reason they go in the 120 range for stock vehicles is mostly emissions at idle, not power. Also, I noticed they start at 3600 RPM for the test, I consider that mid range for most vehicles, not bottom end. When you are just tooling around you are usually 2-3k RPM. I highly doubt it makes more power down there with more overlap, but I could be wrong on that combination. I don't think you would see the same result with the 5.3 vs what that stroker was, as stroker cranks are always pulling in more air from the time the valves are open. Also, I like how you are bringing in actual facts and vids to the discussion.

I understand why they didn't test down lower than that, it's difficult, because the water brake dynos are difficult to control at lower RPM as it requires too much of a change in flow that is hard to do, at least with the controls I have seen. Maybe some of them have controls with a wider range now, but it doesn't appear that way. I also think its a limiting factor of the water brake just not being efficient enough at low RPM, it requires RPM to hold the power.

 

[Babaganoosh]

Curious on.your thoughts with the btr truck cams. Have you looked into those?

 

[Chevy305]

Curious on.your thoughts with the btr truck cams. Have you looked into those?

The BTR cams are good and make good power. I certainly considered them but I didn't see a huge difference in them vs the cheaper Summit or Elgin cams. Budget is definitely a consideration why pay $400 for just the cam when at Summit you can get basically the same cam with the install kit and springs for the same price.