n00b axle question . . .

[Phil513]

Sorry, but I guess we have to start somewhere.

So I have 10 bolts, front and rear. From what I understand, if I break an axle, I'm not going anywhere, because of the C clips in the pumpkin. Only thing I can do is replace it on the trail, correct?

Are the left and right rear axles the same, can I carry one spare? and the front, I need to carry a whole set of everything, because of the different lengths, and U joints as well?

I'm not afraid to do any wrenching, but I want to make sure I know what to prepare for. Apparently I wouldn't just be able to remove the driveshaft to the offending end of the truck and limp out in 2 wheel drive.

Sorry, I know this is dumb stuff for you guys.

 

[Deuling]

Rear should be the same LH and RH side.

Front is different yes.


Also you are correct, you could pull driveshaft, but if you break a rear shaft, it will probably walk out as you drive.

 

[Phil513]

Rear should be the same LH and RH side.

Front is different yes.


Also you are correct, you could pull driveshaft, but if you break a rear shaft, it will probably walk out as you drive.

Thank you sir! Good to know. At least I have been paying attention. lol

 

[diesel4me]

The front end "might" still be able to propel the truck with one busted axle,if the spider gears were welded or it had a locker..

A full floating rear axle has the advantage of the axle being retained in the event of breakage,and its not very common for one to break anyway,because the axle only propels the truck in a full floating rear end,it bears no weight,unlike a 1/2 or 3/4 ton semi-floater..

 

[Phil513]

The front end "might" still be able to propel the truck with one busted axle,if the spider gears were welded or it had a locker..

A full floating rear axle has the advantage of the axle being retained in the event of breakage,and its not very common for one to break anyway,because the axle only propels the truck in a full floating rear end,it bears no weight,unlike a 1/2 or 3/4 ton semi-floater..

Yes, a full floater would definitely be in my future, just have to deal with a slow trickle of a budget. I appreciate the advice though.

 

[Deuling]

Yes, a full floater would definitely be in my future, just have to deal with a slow trickle of a budget. I appreciate the advice though.

What gearing do you have? 14ff rears are pretty darn cheap to find.

 

[Phil513]

What gearing do you have? 14ff rears are pretty darn cheap to find.

Right now I have 3:42's and 35 inch tires. I thought that would be horrible, but with the SM465, it really seems to do fine.

I might be able to find a 14b ff, but then I need to change the front to 8 lug, buy different wheels, and then probably go to 16 inch wheels, which would loose my newly bought 15 inch tires. lol. (Although apparently you can grind the brake housing down to fit 15 inchers if needed?)

I just don't have much in the way of hook ups for that stuff, other than craiglist, and jeez. 14b ff/ Dana combos are at least 2 grand, from what I see.

 

[Phil513]

Like this, but I ain't got that kind of money, at least for awhile.

http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/pts/5046755220.html

 

[rampage]

Just as a heads up, if you have transfer case that has a slip yoke and you remove the rear driveshaft you'll be spewing your t-case fluid everywhere and running it dry.

 

[dyeager535]

6 Lug 14SF's are pretty easy to find, and came with 3.42's. What I have in mine actually.

Still have to do stud and front hub/rotor work to make it right (convert over to 1/2" studs as the taper angle is wrong on the metric lug nuts, but you then end up with matching lug nuts that fit the wheels the same as the 7/16" studs) but no converting to 8 lug stuff.

I was going to post before, but converting to anything other than 10 bolts realistically will probably cost $500 or so on the low end.

The c-clips are not really the problem on the GM axles, as they carry no load. The axleshafts and the carriers in the truck 10 bolts are the problem. The 9.5" "fixes" both of those issues. You really don't hear of people having problems with broken parts on the 9.5" diffs.

 

[campfire]

Sorry, but I guess we have to start somewhere.

So I have 10 bolts, front and rear. From what I understand, if I break an axle, I'm not going anywhere, because of the C clips in the pumpkin. Only thing I can do is replace it on the trail, correct?

Are the left and right rear axles the same, can I carry one spare? and the front, I need to carry a whole set of everything, because of the different lengths, and U joints as well?

I'm not afraid to do any wrenching, but I want to make sure I know what to prepare for. Apparently I wouldn't just be able to remove the driveshaft to the offending end of the truck and limp out in 2 wheel drive.

Sorry, I know this is dumb stuff for you guys.

First, this isn't "dumb stuff." You have no need to apologize for asking a question about something you don't understand. That's what questions are for! So ask away, about all the tech you want to understand. Most of the questions you can ask about these trucks can be answered by someone around here. You just gotta find the right person.

Second, you have done a pretty good job clearly and concisely explaining what you want to know. Props for that.

Third, asking questions often leads to "might as well" answers. Be aware that folks tend to talk each other into upgrading things more thoroughly than they ever needed to. A simple question about 10-bolts may wind up convincing you that you just need to run a deuce-and-a-half axle if you want durability.

Fourth, for your original question, you won't necessarily need to replace the rear axle shaft in the field if it breaks. There are some interesting pictures floating around here of folks keeping wheels in place with logs and ratchet straps. Not ideal, but not the end of the world, either.

Fifth, as said before, the 14sf fixes most of the problems that you're gonna run into with the 10-bolts. What are you planning to do with this rig? Once we know that, we can more accurately answer questions like "Are you at risk for breaking a shaft?" "If so, how large a shaft are you likely to break?" It may be that 10b/14sf combination will be fine. Or maybe it won't. Either way, it's worth getting your plan lined up now so you don't wind up undoing your work later when you find out that you underplanned for something.

Sixth, most of the cost with 1-ton axle swaps is in the front axle. I have about $500 in my 14BFF/8-lug conversion. I could have done a 6-lug 14bsf for half that (truck parts, when available, are relatively cheap in my area). Not so if I had wanted a D60 front. Beefy rear + wussy front is a fraction of the cost of getting beefy axles all around. So figuring out how hard you're gonna be beating on the front axle is really significant if you want to get it done right the first time.


Seventh, I think that 3.42 gears would be fine with a non-O/D transmission. Taking the .70 O/D ratio from a 700R4 for an example, the final drive ratio with your 3.42 gears are the same as running 4.88 gears with O/D (3.42/0.70 = 4.89). Such is the difference that O/D makes.

 

[Phil513]

First, this isn't "dumb stuff." You have no need to apologize for asking a question about something you don't understand. That's what questions are for! So ask away, about all the tech you want to understand. Most of the questions you can ask about these trucks can be answered by someone around here. You just gotta find the right person.

Second, you have done a pretty good job clearly and concisely explaining what you want to know. Props for that.

Third, asking questions often leads to "might as well" answers. Be aware that folks tend to talk each other into upgrading things more thoroughly than they ever needed to. A simple question about 10-bolts may wind up convincing you that you just need to run a deuce-and-a-half axle if you want durability.

Fourth, for your original question, you won't necessarily need to replace the rear axle shaft in the field if it breaks. There are some interesting pictures floating around here of folks keeping wheels in place with logs and ratchet straps. Not ideal, but not the end of the world, either.

Fifth, as said before, the 14sf fixes most of the problems that you're gonna run into with the 10-bolts. What are you planning to do with this rig? Once we know that, we can more accurately answer questions like "Are you at risk for breaking a shaft?" "If so, how large a shaft are you likely to break?" It may be that 10b/14sf combination will be fine. Or maybe it won't. Either way, it's worth getting your plan lined up now so you don't wind up undoing your work later when you find out that you underplanned for something.

Sixth, most of the cost with 1-ton axle swaps is in the front axle. I have about $500 in my 14BFF/8-lug conversion. I could have done a 6-lug 14bsf for half that (truck parts, when available, are relatively cheap in my area). Not so if I had wanted a D60 front. Beefy rear + wussy front is a fraction of the cost of getting beefy axles all around. So figuring out how hard you're gonna be beating on the front axle is really significant if you want to get it done right the first time.


Seventh, I think that 3.42 gears would be fine with a non-O/D transmission. Taking the .70 O/D ratio from a 700R4 for an example, the final drive ratio with your 3.42 gears are the same as running 4.88 gears with O/D (3.42/0.70 = 4.89). Such is the difference that O/D makes.

Wow, thank you, that was great info!

I'll answer in reverse. I have an SM465, not an auto, if that makes a difference. I really thought it would be horrible and boggy, but it just isn't. I don't really notice a whole helluva lot of difference really. But I haven't tried crawling in low range yet.

As far as how hard I will be beating it, I really won't be. Most everything around here is basically desert two tracks, with some moderately rough stuff. I don't see myself pounding on this thing. I would like to put in a lunchbox locker in the rear though, I'd like to make the run out to the Glamis sand dunes again, as I did in the old days.

As far as beefing up the rear, I was under the impression that the front was more vulnerable, since stresses can really go up with the wheels turned and all. But honestly, for what i want to do, I think I'd be happy with just some spares in the back.

If money does come my way, I would like to go to tons down the road, as I would really enjoy the Blazer Bash in Moab, or things like that. But for now I'd be happy just bouncing around the desert a bit.

I really appreciate yours, and every one's input. This is a great website.

And, as far as the "might as wells", it's kind of funny. A long time ago I had a 77 K5, with (I would imagine) a D44, 12 bolt with a gov-loc. (at least i assume so, it did have a locker, but would spin up pretty good before it locked into place). I pounded that poor truck. I would hammer it at the dunes, feel the locker BONG into place and shoot up the dune.

After spending time here, If i knew then what I know now, I'd probably be afraid to leave the driveway with it.

 

[diesel4me]

Sometimes ignorance is bliss,as they say..

Ever since I learned just how many parts are whizzing around at 3000 rpms as you drive at 65 down the highway,that threaten to fail at any given moment--
--I wish I never knew!....

Despite having a truck that is a 3/4 ton with a SF rear,a 6.2 diesel & TH400 transmission,which many consider "bullet proof",I still find myself feeling vulnerable every place I go in it..

Lots of people say I'm too worried about everything as far as fearing having a mechanical problem,but they aren't worried because they have no clue just how many parts are wearing out with every revolution, and all have to work together as a team in order for you to arrive at your destination..one thing fails,your boned!..

I now marvel at the punishment I gave many of my vehicles when I was younger,yet they seemed to never break down...now I baby them,and they break anyway....

 

[campfire]

Wow, thank you, that was great info!
...
I really appreciate yours, and every one's input. This is a great website.

Welcome to CK! That's why we're here!

I'll answer in reverse. I have an SM465, not an auto, if that makes a difference. I really thought it would be horrible and boggy, but it just isn't. I don't really notice a whole helluva lot of difference really. But I haven't tried crawling in low range yet.

For my numbers example, it doesn't really matter (though there are lots of other differences). If you wanted to compare to the 5-speeds that Chevy offered in the 90s (NV3500 and NV4500), the O/D ratio is 0.73, IIRC. Numerically distinguishable, but I doubt you'd feel much difference on the road.

The good news for you is that, in addition to having a decent road gear (unlike most of the non-O/D trucks out there), that SM465 will give you a low crawling gear as well. So I would say you're pretty well set up for a mix of both, gear-wise.

As far as how hard I will be beating it, I really won't be. Most everything around here is basically desert two tracks, with some moderately rough stuff. I don't see myself pounding on this thing. I would like to put in a lunchbox locker in the rear though, I'd like to make the run out to the Glamis sand dunes again, as I did in the old days.

As far as beefing up the rear, I was under the impression that the front was more vulnerable, since stresses can really go up with the wheels turned and all. But honestly, for what i want to do, I think I'd be happy with just some spares in the back.

If money does come my way, I would like to go to tons down the road, as I would really enjoy the Blazer Bash in Moab, or things like that. But for now I'd be happy just bouncing around the desert a bit.

I'm not a rock crawler, but I will share what I've picked up from folks on here. Some of them will no doubt share their insights soon.

Locked front axles are vulnerable like you described. But unlocked axles can last a long time. Your plans are light enough that I doubt you're going to break your stock configuration in the front.

Since upgrading the rear axle is so cheap and simple, you might enjoy the peace of mind from upgrading to a 14-bolt axle of either type. The 9.5" semi-float can give you a nice, matching 6-lug axle (very easy swap). If you are thinking of going with tons down the road, you can very cheaply put the 10.5" full-float in the back. Your only additional cost is the 8-lug conversion up front. This is what I did. I went with the 14bff because I liked its ease of maintenance (going back to your original question about breaking stuff on the trail). But my usage plans are similar to yours, so I probably won't ever get around to installing a D60 (unless I get bored! ).


The important part (especially if you want a locker) is to get the right axle installed the first time around so you don't have to replace your brand new axle/locker combination later when you decide you want the other style of axle.

And, as far as the "might as wells", it's kind of funny. A long time ago I had a 77 K5, with (I would imagine) a D44, 12 bolt with a gov-loc. (at least i assume so, it did have a locker, but would spin up pretty good before it locked into place). I pounded that poor truck. I would hammer it at the dunes, feel the locker BONG into place and shoot up the dune.

After spending time here, If i knew then what I know now, I'd probably be afraid to leave the driveway with it.

These trucks are quite capable, even in their stock form. They handle all sorts of abuse. You don't need to be afraid of running stock axles for light-duty use. For hammering it at the dunes, I'd recommend talking to Adam (Deuling) about why he now runs a 14bsf in the rear.

 

[Phil513]

Again, thanks so much.

I think that's a good plan. I'll work on the paint job, and just take it easy with it as-is, and keep an eye out for a good deal on a 14 bolt. Sounds like a good direction to go.

If I go with a 6 lug sf, how much headache would making my 15 in rims fit?

And, would i need to do some magic with the U joint from the driveshaft to the pinion yoke?

 

[campfire]

Again, thanks so much.

I think that's a good plan. I'll work on the paint job, and just take it easy with it as-is, and keep an eye out for a good deal on a 14 bolt. Sounds like a good direction to go.

If I go with a 6 lug sf, how much headache would making my 15 in rims fit?

And, would i need to do some magic with the U joint from the driveshaft to the pinion yoke?

I have not done this swap, but my understanding is that they use the same size drums as the 10-bolts. So the wheel geometry should be the same. (That's what makes the swap so convenient and easy compared to the other options out there)

You can read through Dueling's build thread looking for his rear axle swap write-up. But it's currently sitting at about 6500 posts. Searching for it may take a while.

Paging Adam, Paging Adam...

 

[Phil513]

I have read through Adam's thread, but it's been awhile ago, and it's a bit foggy. Great thread though. From where he started to where he is now, he has done an amazing job.

 

[dyeager535]

Here are a couple threads with various tidbits of info, from when I and a couple others did our 14SF swaps: http://coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135125&highlight=14sf

This one in the later posts covers the proper studs and tools necessary to convert everything over to 1/2" studs: http://coloradok5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289644&highlight=lug+nuts+14sf FWIW I now have ~4 years of driving on those studs, and have never had a front one loosen up, which was my only concern. It just looks odd with the stud end not sticking out of the lug nut.

Note that while stock 15" wheels will fit on the 14MM studs, the lug nuts destroy the wheels. Either the taper angle is wrong, or the lug nut itself is too large a diameter, either way it ruins the tapered seats in the wheel that the lug nut is supposed to snug up against.

 

[Phil513]

Wow, thank you, that is good to know!

As I have said before around here, the collective knowledge of this forum is amazing.

It would have been nice if they had at least standardized the wheel lugs.

 

[campfire]

Wow, thank you, that is good to know!

As I have said before around here, the collective knowledge of this forum is amazing.

It would have been nice if they had at least standardized the wheel lugs.

They were standard. The annoying part is that they changed over to metric.