What's new
CK5
Register an account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members.

Need to see the light

JT88K5

JT88K5

1/2 ton status
 Premium
Joined
Dec 14, 2015
Posts
499
Reaction score
650
Location
Central PA
I finally poured a floor in my pole building. Now that the inside is actually fit to work in, I need light. I want lots of light. The space is 36x44, the building is 36x60, it has a “shop” on the end, that will get all of the cobbed together benches cabinets and shelves removed soon.

Main thing now is to equip the 36x44 space with enough light so I can see what I’m doing. The ceiling height is 12’. Seems like 4ft LED would be the way to go. 40W lights seems to be pretty standard with output around 4000 Lumens. I was thinking somewhere in the neighborhood of 16 to 20 fixtures.

Recommendations?
 
Got a Costco where you live?

Costco always has led lights for like 20 bucks.
 
I had 24 8 foot fluorescent housing in my shop. Bought LED 8 foot bulbs and bypassed the ballast. 40x60 building. Really bright.

People are tossing those housings to go LED. I really like my setup.
 
ktmoutfront said:
I had 24 8 foot fluorescent housing in my shop. Bought LED 8 foot bulbs and bypassed the ballast. 40x60 building. Really bright.

People are tossing those housings to go LED. I really like my setup.
Click to expand...

Friend of mine recommended the same. He liked that setup.
 
I originally had the fluorescent 4ft, four bulb fixtures, bought 18 of the LED replacement bulbs off Ebay (unfortunately chinese of course) for about $4/bulb, and bypassed the ballasts and used two per fixture. Had them for a few years now, seem every bit as bright as the fluorescents, and havent even had one of the thousands of LEDs fail yet.

No warmup is nice. Light output is immediate and full. I dont worry about flipping them on and off multiple times a day.
 
I have a bunch of 4ft fluorescent fixtures in my garage that were free from a commercial remodel. Great for several years but now the ballasts are going bad. You guys that swapped to LED, just yank the ballasts and rewire power right to the LED bulbs? It would be great to not have to swap out my housings, they are all mounted up and wired with MC.
 
Be advised there are two types of LED replacements.
Actually more than that, but this is what I am addressing here.
They are one end connection and both end connections. The first ones I bought were both end. I figured they would be easiest to install. The connectors in those fixtures are called tombstones, and come in two flavors. Ones with each pin separate, and ones with the two pins shorted.
A lot of those replacement lights come with replacement tombstones just in case. My bright idea............Yeah, I went there. Was that if I got the LEDs with one connection on each end, it would not matter which type of connector my fixture had.
However, as it turned out, all of my fixtures had the split type of connector, but the wires from the ballasts were not long enough to reach the far end and I had to splice in some. A real pain when standing on a ladder to have to climb down and scrounge up some wire and extra connectors.
The second batch I got I used just one end for both wires, and I made sure they came with the right tombstones. Much easier.
Don't even bother with the ones that say you can continue to use the existing ballast. Not only will they usually not work with the ballast in your light, but the ballast wastes power doing nothing that cuts into your savings from the LED.

At my hunting camp in the swamp, I went a different way. The main area is open. There is a roof, and a back wall, but no side walls or doors. So, in cold weather, the fixtures hanging from the rafters were slow to start. I upgraded to LEDs for instant on and cold weather durability.
The light was so nice and bright, I decided to add some in places that were always a little dark. But had no spare fixtures.
No problem with these. DON'T do this at home.
I simply quick-soldered two wires to the bulb terminals, and clamped the bulbs to the rafters with conduit clamps. No fixtures, just the bare bulb. They have a reflector of sorts built in, so after I got them mounted and fired off, I loosened the clamps and rotated them to aim the light where I wanted it.
The bulbs are plastic, so no problem if they get bumped, and no ground plane needed to start them. So you really don't need a fixture.
I ran out of clamps, so the last two I just mounted two 1 inch PVC couplings to the rafters and slid the bulb in them.
So, the main point of this is the two different styles of power hookup, and the need for split connector tombstones. Be sure the bulbs come with free ones. Also, everybody here has had issues with things POs have done to their rigs. So, if the bulbs come with warning stickers saying that the fixtures have been converted, Use Them.
Otherwise, years from now, someone might replace a failing LED with an old style bulb and get quite a scare.
Of course, given the price dropping of the LEDs, their long life and power savings, I have to wonder how long the original type bulbs will still be around.
 
HankScorpio said:
I have a bunch of 4ft fluorescent fixtures in my garage that were free from a commercial remodel. Great for several years but now the ballasts are going bad. You guys that swapped to LED, just yank the ballasts and rewire power right to the LED bulbs? It would be great to not have to swap out my housings, they are all mounted up and wired with MC.
Click to expand...

Yes, I bought some that just bypass the ballast. Very quick and easy to wire up. I left the ballast in place, just cut them out. Like you, so many of the ballasts started going out I had to do something. These were four light fixtures, I did two bulbs each and feel it is more than adequate. My ceiling is 10 or 11 feet, so I get good dispersion from the LED's. I also found that it was possible to angle the bulbs a bit in the tombstones, which did an even better job of spreading the light.

I wanted to go with the more incandescent type output (2500 iirc) but they were pretty hard to find for anywhere near the same price as the 4000k bulbs. But for working in the garage, they seen ok. I'd hate that color in the house though.

That is one thing that is difficult when buying the chinese junk. The wiring instructions are absolutely insane. Normally making no sense. Numerous reasons to support ones made elsewhere. ​
 
Last edited:
Fordum said:
Be advised there are two types of LED replacements.

So you really don't need a fixture.
I ran out of clamps, so the last two I just mounted two 1 inch PVC couplings to the rafter.
.
Click to expand...

ok now the wheels are turning. I don’t have fixtures, the roll your own method sounds interesting.. proper terminals on the wire vs soldering that plug into the end of the bulb would up the safety factor. Maybe pvc end caps vs a coupling would keep the bulb stationary without blocking the light?
 
Well, its a little tricky. Those pins don't fit anything I had laying around. They are too big for a red wire splice and too small for a blue. I tried a few other ideas but did not like any of them. The first one I did I took the end cap off, unsoldered the pins and extended the wires out through where the pins were.
Then used wire nuts.
BTW, small wire nuts did not work well on the pins either. There might be a size that would, but I was afraid that the pin would twist in the plastic if I got it too tight.
Also, if you solder to the pins, remember they are embedded in plastic and have small wires soldered on them on the inside. So don't go overboard with the amount or length of heat.
Undoubtedly the best way would be a pair of tombstones mounted to something the right distance apart. One tombstone on one end will not work because the light will just slide out of the end. However, if you are using a bulb with both power hookups on the same end, there is no reason some kind of stop could not be rigged on the other end to keep the bulb from sliding out. Those pins are dead on the ones I have.
I have seen tombstones with metal tabs that mount with a screw. So that would work for the power end. Making sure that the two connections are split, of course.
Heck, especially if you were mounting the tombstone on wood, you could probably glue them on with a good glue that bonded to the wood and hardened over the plastic.

Bear in mind, when I was doing all this, I was several miles out in a swamp and only had what stuff I had laying around. I usually take several types of equipment with me to fix stuff, so I had good soldering equipment and Multicore rosin core solder.
With access to more time and a good hardware/electrical store, I'm sure that a better job could be done.
There are various types of conduit/pipe clamps that are pretty much the right size for holding the light stationary without crushing it. I used the ones that look like a "C" with a single screw mount tab.
And, with all the LEDs facing the same way on the ones I had, you can aim the light to a large degree.
Either towards where you want the most light, or if you have a really white ceiling, you could aim them up for a more diffuse light effect.
These are the ones I used, but don't go by the size. I don't remember what size I used. It was a few years and a major hurricane ago. I do think I may have had to spread them a little.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Sigma-Elec...-Tubing-Compatible-Conduit-Fitting/1000152581
These would have worked also. Again not sure of the size.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/CARLON-1-i...Conduit-Compatible-Conduit-Fitting/1001352510
Two other things:
First, the correct name for the tombstone you need is a non-shunted type. As you can see here, they are cheap and plentiful.
https://www.amazon.com/fluorescent-light-tombstone/s?k=fluorescent+light+tombstone

Second, some of the bulbs I used had the end cap able to rotate about 90 degrees, so you could still aim the bulb after it was in the tombstone.
Have fun, if you come up with a good way be sure and post the details and some pics. I still have some dark places I need to illuminate.
 
I nead a upgrade in garage lighting.

I didn’t know you can bypass the ballast and use LED bulbs in the old fixtures. I got three 100w bulbs in a 26x 30 garage, it is unusable for me working at night.
I got a bunch of 8’ fixtures we took out of our barn I could use in the garage.

How many do you guys think would light that area up?
How many 8’ fixtures can you run off one circuit or switch?
I don’t know shit about wireing.

I suppose anything I add would make a big difference.
 
I saw a job where a contractor was putting in LED lighting, cutting out the fluorescent ballast, and putting in another ballast for the LEDs. Not sure what that was about, but it seems like there are a variety of LED styles out there, and you need to know what you are getting. Cutting the ballast out of mine was a quick job, like 10 minutes per fixture, two bulbs per.

I want to say it was Costco that had motion sensing twin 4' led fixtures at like $20 awhile back, perhaps the cost in stores has come down for all this stuff. I bought mine off Ebay in "bulk" (25) to save a couple of dollars per bulb.

My shop is about 26x30 as well, I've got nine 4' fixtures, two bulbs per. Lighting is good IMO, although in hindsight I wouldnt have any where the garage doors obscure them, or I'd add ones between the bays to compensate when the doors are open.
 
The 8' LEDs draw very little wattage and amps compared to florescent bulbs. In your size shop, they could sll run off CV of one switch. Put as many in as you can afford.
 
I like the idea of mounting the LED tubes with a conduit clamp or the PVC plastic couplings...you could probably use those spring steel broom clamps too,that would allow for easy bulb changes...
broom clamp.jpg

As for the connector issue,I ran into a similar problem trying to connect some solid #8 ga wire I used to make a TV antenna ,to the stranded #16 ga wires on the 75 to 300 ohm balun required to hook it to the coax cable..

I tried using wire nuts,they kind of worked,but the connection was not great and subject to moisture and corrosion,soldering wire that big proved impossible with my soldering iron,and a propane torch just melted the crap out of the insulation on the balun,had to get another one--tried solderless butt connectors and they didn't fit the solid wire --I ended up using short pieces of 1/4" copper tubing,which crimped nicely being soft,and made a good firm connection with low resistance..
Maybe some 1/8" copper tubing would fit the pins on the LED tubes and be crimped on ?..then covered with silicone caulk so the exposed ends wont be a shock hazard..
 
When they came out, in general, 4 footers drew 40-48 watts, and the 8 footers drew 80-100 watts.
Then the higher efficiency ballasts and bulbs reduced that while pretty much maintaining light output.
Later, technology changed again with instant start vs rapid start and high frequency ballasts.
So, figure the 8 foot fixtures you have drew 100 watts, rounding up.
Rounding up again, lets say they each drew 1 amp at 120volts. Way higher than reality, but better to over than under estimate when wiring.
Which means, you could easily get away with running 10 to 12 of the old style fixtures on one circuit.
That is assuming the 8 footers were single bulb. Most were. Double bulb would not quite double the current, so figure 6 to 8 double bulb fixtures.

Replace the bulbs with LEDs, get rid of the ballast which also draws current, and you are left with about 44 watts per bulb. Or about 1/3 of an amp per bulb. Which means you could run close to 40 on one circuit.
One nice thing bout the old 8 footers, they are almost all single pin bulbs, which means all the LEDs have to use both ends for power. Probably means extending the wires inside the fixture, but there is no worries about what type of tombstone to use.
I think you will be amazed at how much the new bulbs put out. If you have other places you could add lights, it might pay you to get enough LEDs to do all the fixtures so as to get a bulk price break. But I expect you will not need all of them in that shop.
All the double bulb 4 footers I have refitted here in my house, I wound up only putting in one bulb. The fixtures are not that high up, and when I put in two, it was just too bright. One is more light than the two original bulbs put out. And most of the 8 foot replacements are actually two rows of LEDs, so you are getting much more light than you would expect.
There are a couple of things to think about.
First, clear vs frosted. Obviously the clear tube is going to put out more light, but the frosted will diffuse it better. If you have a low ceiling, the frosted might be better, but its hard to argue with more light.
Second there is one more thing about 8 footers that I don't see in the 4 footers.
From what I have read, the long 8 footers tend to sag in the middle. They are plastic, and and 8 unsupported feet is rough on thin plastic tubing. The company that sells the bulbs usually offer some knid of screw in clamp for that. If they come with the bulbs for free I'd use them.
But, if they want to charge for them, a zip-tie through a hole or two in the fixture would do just as well.
 
Normally I would never consider using crimped down soft copper tubing for an electrical connector on a solid hard pin, but these bulbs only draw about 1/3 of an amp, so you won't have an overheating problem if the connection worked loose.
Should work well.
I would not crimp straight down on the pin, I would use a pair of vice grips to pinch the side of the tubing flat and constrict it around the pin. Then either the caulk or some heat shrink.
 
dyeager535 said:
I saw a job where a contractor was putting in LED lighting, cutting out the fluorescent ballast, and putting in another ballast for the LEDs. Not sure what that was about, but it seems like there are a variety of LED styles out there, and you need to know what you are getting. Cutting the ballast out of mine was a quick job, like 10 minutes per fixture, two bulbs per.

I want to say it was Costco that had motion sensing twin 4' led fixtures at like $20 awhile back, perhaps the cost in stores has come down for all this stuff. I bought mine off Ebay in "bulk" (25) to save a couple of dollars per bulb.

My shop is about 26x30 as well, I've got nine 4' fixtures, two bulbs per. Lighting is good IMO, although in hindsight I wouldnt have any where the garage doors obscure them, or I'd add ones between the bays to compensate when the doors are open.
Click to expand...

ktmoutfront said:
The 8' LEDs draw very little wattage and amps compared to florescent bulbs. In your size shop, they could sll run off CV of one switch. Put as many in as you can afford.
Click to expand...

Fordum said:
When they came out, in general, 4 footers drew 40-48 watts, and the 8 footers drew 80-100 watts.
Then the higher efficiency ballasts and bulbs reduced that while pretty much maintaining light output.
Later, technology changed again with instant start vs rapid start and high frequency ballasts.
So, figure the 8 foot fixtures you have drew 100 watts, rounding up.
Rounding up again, lets say they each drew 1 amp at 120volts. Way higher than reality, but better to over than under estimate when wiring.
Which means, you could easily get away with running 10 to 12 of the old style fixtures on one circuit.
That is assuming the 8 footers were single bulb. Most were. Double bulb would not quite double the current, so figure 6 to 8 double bulb fixtures.

Replace the bulbs with LEDs, get rid of the ballast which also draws current, and you are left with about 44 watts per bulb. Or about 1/3 of an amp per bulb. Which means you could run close to 40 on one circuit.
One nice thing bout the old 8 footers, they are almost all single pin bulbs, which means all the LEDs have to use both ends for power. Probably means extending the wires inside the fixture, but there is no worries about what type of tombstone to use.
I think you will be amazed at how much the new bulbs put out. If you have other places you could add lights, it might pay you to get enough LEDs to do all the fixtures so as to get a bulk price break. But I expect you will not need all of them in that shop.
All the double bulb 4 footers I have refitted here in my house, I wound up only putting in one bulb. The fixtures are not that high up, and when I put in two, it was just too bright. One is more light than the two original bulbs put out. And most of the 8 foot replacements are actually two rows of LEDs, so you are getting much more light than you would expect.
There are a couple of things to think about.
First, clear vs frosted. Obviously the clear tube is going to put out more light, but the frosted will diffuse it better. If you have a low ceiling, the frosted might be better, but its hard to argue with more light.
Second there is one more thing about 8 footers that I don't see in the 4 footers.
From what I have read, the long 8 footers tend to sag in the middle. They are plastic, and and 8 unsupported feet is rough on thin plastic tubing. The company that sells the bulbs usually offer some knid of screw in clamp for that. If they come with the bulbs for free I'd use them.
But, if they want to charge for them, a zip-tie through a hole or two in the fixture would do just as well.
Click to expand...

Thanks guys!
Now I got some pricing and thinking to do.
My ceiling is 10”8”
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest Posts

Top Bottom