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Optima batteries, 4/10/18...battery status update

Another Optima bites the dust after 1.5 years I now have a dead cell in the RR. It will not hold a charge :(

Off to costco to return this red top. I think I'm done with these batteries. I've liked them for their sealed aspect but I am begining to think they are more trouble then they are worth.
 
nsxxtreme, I'm sorry to hear about the problems you had with your RedTop and your alternator. One of our engineers has a D1 and told me while the older Rovers are more simple from an electrical standpoint, the newer models seem to have significantly higher key-off loads, which can be very hard on any battery over time, even in daily drivers, if most of the trips are short.

I don't know how long your alternator was giving you trouble before you replaced it, but whenever batteries get discharged to the point where a vehicle needs to be jump-started, it is a good idea to fully-charge the battery with a battery charger as soon as possible. Most alternators are designed to maintain batteries, not recharge deeply-discharged batteries. Asking an alternator to perform that duty can lead to a cycle of dead batteries and jump-starts, until either the battery or alternator needs to be replaced.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
 
OptimaJim said:
nsxxtreme, I'm sorry to hear about the problems you had with your RedTop and your alternator. One of our engineers has a D1 and told me while the older Rovers are more simple from an electrical standpoint, the newer models seem to have significantly higher key-off loads, which can be very hard on any battery over time, even in daily drivers, if most of the trips are short.

I don't know how long your alternator was giving you trouble before you replaced it, but whenever batteries get discharged to the point where a vehicle needs to be jump-started, it is a good idea to fully-charge the battery with a battery charger as soon as possible. Most alternators are designed to maintain batteries, not recharge deeply-discharged batteries. Asking an alternator to perform that duty can lead to a cycle of dead batteries and jump-starts, until either the battery or alternator needs to be replaced.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
Click to expand...

Thing is I think I replaced a perfectly good alternator. I never really had trouble as you put it, my trouble was a dead battery after sitting for 2 days. That is the one and only problem I ever had. I charged the battery and it worked fine as long as we continued to drive the car each day with the old alternator. At 2000 rpms I measured 13.8 volts with a full load with old alternator. Full load is greater then 100 amps. With a new alternator I measure 12.7V at idle and 14.0 volts with a full load at 2k rpms. I decided to replace the alternator more as preventative maintenance since the car is approaching 100k miles. Call it giving the optima the benifit of the doubt before giving it the old heave ho. The reduced voltage would also be a good indicator of a dead cell especially since the new alternator also won't read above 14V.

In any event the battery was fully charged after replacing the alternator. My battery charger is the one that told me it had a dead cell. But since it was left connected to the car when charged I ignored the message.

You are correct about one thing the newer rovers do have a higher key off load. Exspecially if you live in an area with high RF interference. The computers go into a sleep mode but are constantly listening. If you live in an area with high RF intereference they are constantly woken up. I don't live in one of those areas but the key off load I know is still somewhat high compared to a normal car and I think the Optima just isn't up to the task. The same exact problem occurred the car sat over the weekend got in it on Monday and it would not start.

Hopefully I can get a full refund from costco and go with a different brand battery. The difficulty is the battery has the terminals reversed so that limits the number of brands and models I can buy. Probably gonna end up just having to get the range rover specific battery. This is the second optima battery I have put in this car.
 
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I have dual yellow tops with a battery cut off switch & they still were too week to start my truck after sitting for only 6wks...they ate about 1 1/2yrs old and I've had issues with them not holding a charge after only 6 months...
 
cdoggwsu said:
I've read a lot of the Optima vs. Orbital debates and from what I've seen Orbitals have the clear preference these days but I've personally never used them.

As Thunder said, the Walmart line has proven to be reliable and at a considerable cost savings so it's hard to go wrong there.
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Anyone know who makes the Orbital? I worry it's just a rebadged optima.
 
nsxxtreme, I'm again sorry to hear that both an independent LR mechanic and the site administrator at RangeRovers.net appear to have given you bad advice, indicating your readings were too low and suggesting your alternator needed to be replaced. I hate to jump on their bandwagon of misinformation, but we suggest an alternator's output should be approximately 13.7-14.7 volts, so the 12.7 volts your new alternator is measuring at idle sounds low to me as well. As an added note, we make all of our own batteries in our own facility and they are the only batteries produced there. We never re-brand or re-spec our batteries for any of our retail partners.

blazin' j, I'm sorry to hear about the problems you've been having with your YellowTops. What size are they and do you happen to know the voltage when you parked your truck and what the voltage was six weeks later?


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
 
nsxxtreme said:
Anyone know who makes the Orbital? I worry it's just a rebadged optima.
Click to expand...

Orbital is made by Exide.

On a positive note I picked up a Battery Tender a month or so ago and just for fun I let it run a charge cycle on an old group 51 yellow top that I thought was dead. Looks like it's holding a charge now! I haven't tested it in a vehicle, but on my test bench it's doing great.
 
OptimaJim said:
nsxxtreme, I'm again sorry to hear that both an independent LR mechanic and the site administrator at RangeRovers.net appear to have given you bad advice, indicating your readings were too low and suggesting your alternator needed to be replaced. I hate to jump on their bandwagon of misinformation, but we suggest an alternator's output should be approximately 13.7-14.7 volts, so the 12.7 volts your new alternator is measuring at idle sounds low to me as well. As an added note, we make all of our own batteries in our own facility and they are the only batteries produced there. We never re-brand or re-spec our batteries for any of our retail partners.

blazin' j, I'm sorry to hear about the problems you've been having with your YellowTops. What size are they and do you happen to know the voltage when you parked your truck and what the voltage was six weeks later?


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
Click to expand...

Jim I think your missing how a bad cell can also cause an alternator to read low. No alternator puts out max current at idle. The current is very limited at idle. Anyone that tests your alternator at idle is a moron. This is a 150 amp alternator its not going to put out 150 amps at idle.

I was trying to repeat the indy mechnics results and the only way I could duplicate the results was to put max load at idle. Keep in mind that a Range Rover alternator is $800 just for the part. As this is a water cooled alternator. LR mechanics are notorious for giving bad information for a nice pay day at the end.

My old alternator at 2000 rpms and max load put out 13.8V within the range you just stated as exceptable. The 12.7V reading again is at idle and full load. Remove the load and it jumps to 13.8 at idle. It is the only way I could duplicate the indy mechanics results even a small step on the gas 1200rpms and the voltage jumped to 13.8V. The new alternator reads .2 volts higher then the previous alternator. But still about .4 volts lower then others are reading. Indicating to me that the old alternator was working fine and I probably have an issue with the battery.

Add in the fact that I can drive around with every electrical part of the car turned all 4 butt warmers, front windshield electric defrost, rear windshield electric defrost, electric stearing wheel warmer, heater to max, headlights on, stereo, navigation and everything else that I can think of and the car will start fine at the end of the day. I could do this before and after I replaced the alternator. I'm fairly confident the alternator isn't the problem. Dead battery only occurs if the car sits for two days.

Keep in mind this isn't the first red top that has died in this car. This is the second red top. Each lasted a little over a year. When someone buys an optima they are expecting to get better performance than every other 800CCA battery. Those are its selling points, Small, sealed, high performance. If you remove one of those then it's just another battery. I bought into optima in the 90's when I used them for high current car stereo's where the alternators were far from being able to keep up. You just couldn't make an optima die back then. That is when they were under $100. Something has changed and you will be hard pressed to convince me otherwise.
 
cdoggwsu said:
Orbital is made by Exide.

On a positive note I picked up a Battery Tender a month or so ago and just for fun I let it run a charge cycle on an old group 51 yellow top that I thought was dead. Looks like it's holding a charge now! I haven't tested it in a vehicle, but on my test bench it's doing great.
Click to expand...

Excellent thanks I'm gonna stop buy napa and see if they make a reversed terminal version.
 
Jim,

Some research has led me to another possible cause. I will remove the battery have it tested and then try this other RR specific issue I found.
It will take me at least a week to get it all sorted out but I will report back when done. If it turns out not to be an Optima related issue I will be a happy camper. I'm willing to give the Optima the benifit of the doubt and at least chase down another possibility.
 
Sorry Jim I sure don't know what the voltages were...I have my batteries set up to b able to start the truck using one, both or the other one as a reserve but in any if the 3 configurations it has to b jump started...I have a brand new alt on the truck and it was tested before it was installed...I will have the electrical system checked for draw issues but as of right now the batteries do not have enuff voltage to even try to turn the truck over...
 
Chris, I'm glad to hear you were able to successfully recover your YellowTop. nssxtreme, I apologize for mis-reading your previous post, where you indicated, “I measure 12.7V at idle and 14.0 volts with a full load at 2k rpms.” I read it as you only measured it with a full load when the engine was running at 2k rpms. So what was the standing voltage of the battery when your charger told you it had a bad cell? Given that the battery would die after your vehicle sat for two days, what is your key-off load? An easy way for you to test your RedTop at home is to fully-charge it (approximately 12.6-12.8 volts) and let it sit on a bench for 12-24 hours. If it holds close to that voltage for 12-24 hours, but drops voltage when connected to your vehicle, there is likely an electrical issue within your vehicle that needs to be addressed.

blazin' j, if you'd like to check your truck for parasitic draws yourself, this video explains how to do it. Fully-charged, your YellowTops should measure approximately 13.0-13.2 volts. What size are your YellowTops?


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
 
OptimaJim said:
So what was the standing voltage of the battery when your charger told you it had a bad cell? Given that the battery would die after your vehicle sat for two days, what is your key-off load? An easy way for you to test your RedTop at home is to fully-charge it (approximately 12.6-12.8 volts) and let it sit on a bench for 12-24 hours. If it holds close to that voltage for 12-24 hours, but drops voltage when connected to your vehicle, there is likely an electrical issue within your vehicle that needs to be addressed.
Click to expand...

I don't know standing voltage as removing a battery from a range rover isn't as simple as removing it from other cars. That will be done this weekend when I have some time. First you have to make sure all 13 computers power down and that takes some time for the car to sit. I charged the battery again last night and it told me open cell. But again this was attached to the car so I'm not putting much faith in my "smart" charger.

Key-off load in this case I doubt will not show me anything as it takes hours for this problem to show itself. The particular RR issue I am refering to is a faulty module that turns the HVAC fan on intermittently after the car has been shut down. I don't know if my car has this issue but it appears a number of others have complained about a similiar issue and replacing this module fixed the problem. I'll have the part this weekend and should be able to get it replaced. It's worth a shot.
 
optimas are junk

being a victim, I'd say get rid of the optima and buy an interstate, optimas aren't even worth fooling with anymore. I asked the interstate guy about optimas (after my bad experience) and he say he doesn't even try to sell them anymore, he will, but he trys to talk customers out of going with optima cause they are nothing but problems. look at how many people have trouble with them, why bother
 
whats the advantage of have the lead fasioned in a circle, other than it costing another 60-70 bucks, whats wrong with the tried and true standard battery, I work with construction equipment that takes a beating and I've seen some workaholic interstates last almost 9 years
 
nsxxtreme, you don't even need to remove your battery from your vehicle. It just sounded like you had done that already and I often recommend that to folks anyway, just to make sure they have disconnected all wiring from both terminals. The HVAC can sounds a lot like an issue I read about a few months back with a lowered truck. The owner was sitting in his garage late one night, bench-racing with someone, when he heard his compressor turn on. He hadn't driven the truck all day, but it turned out he had a slow leak in one of his bags that would cause his compressor to turn on and cycle periodically. What is the voltage of the battery when the smart charger indicates it is bad?

MJB774X, there are several advantages to our SpiralCell design, in addition to being up to 15 times more resistant to vibration than traditional flooded batteries. Optima’s grid alloy is one of the most corrosion-resistant alloys in production. The high purity of the alloy and its simple binary composition also minimizes gas generation. Typical wet or flat-plate AGM batteries use grid alloys that contain three or four elements, which results in lower overall purity and gassing characteristics that are not as good as Optima's binary lead alloy. As a result, Optima batteries will have less corrosion at elevated temperatures and less water loss when compared to conventional wet or flat-plate AGM products. Oxygen gas recombination in AGM designs, in general, limits water loss, which is a feature that is lacking in wet products.

In cold weather, the low internal resistance of our design allows for the ability to quickly withdraw high power on discharge and subsequently, quickly return power on charge. The internal resistance in this design is low, because it uses very thin separators between the plates, which themselves are very thin, along with many “wraps” of plates to make the spiral construction. This design gives the battery very high cranking power, especially at low temperatures.

Additionally, our SpiralCell design uses a continuous cast strap to join the adjacent cells. In an Optima these straps are 99.99% pure lead, and are cast (as opposed to welded in most other batteries, which adds resistance and corrosion points between the cells). A cast strap is unique to OPTIMA, more expensive, and more difficult to manufacture, but it is a process that gives superior performance. A larger and/or better-designed, manufactured or connected strap will allow better high current flow due to lower internal resistance, which can be indicated in the CCA rating. This also allows our design to use taller internal components and have higher electrical performance characteristics, because there is more active material present. I apologize for being so long in my response, but if you have any other questions, I'll do my best to answer them.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
 
Jim, that sounds great and all but, myself, people I know, and the majority of the folks on here, have had bad experiences with the optimas. neat and high tech designs sound good and all but if they are troublesome then whats the point. Like I said I've seen a bare bones workaholic last in a bobcat skid steer for over five years, you don't think that sees shock and vibration? I'm talking about skid steers that run breakers on them too. I've seen a workaholic last just about nine years, I've only seen two not last at least 2 years. can anybody on here tell me they have seen an optima last more than 4?
why take a chance? why spend more money on something that clearly gives problems and doesn't perform? your name is optima Jim, you clearly have an agenda other than the facts, do you sell optimas? or have a stake in the company? because if your not here to make right of all the troubles people have had on here with your batterys, your words have no weight. defend all you want, people aren't that stupid
 
MJB774X said:
your name is optima Jim, you clearly have an agenda other than the facts, do you sell optimas? or have a stake in the company?
Click to expand...

Not that I disagree with your frustration but you might want to check Jim's signature line again as the reason he's here is because he's an Optima rep.

OptimaJim =

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

:thumb:
 
Chris, I appreciate the clarity on what I do for Optima. MJB774X, I understand your frustration and that of your friends, however, I didn't start this thread. It was started 120 posts ago by 76zimmer, who owned an Optima battery that has lasted longer than all of the batteries you mentioned- combined. While his experience may not be typical, if you think it isn't factual, you should probably call him out on it. We have his battery now, we've load-tested it and it still works fine. While I'd like to help as many people as possible, there are limits to what I'm able to do.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc. (I work for Optima)
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
 
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