Optima batteries, 4/10/18...battery status update

[nsxxtreme]

But there are nice tidbits in this thread, such as 'stay away from RRs...'

My RR has been more reliable then my blazer. I bought the blazer as a cheap toy . With all the mods just to get it to a usable point it hasn't been such a cheap toy lol. I spent thousands more upgrading it then I have maintaning the RR. Although the only electrical item in the Blazer to debug is the dome light which does make things much easier.

Funny though you go to another forum and mention you have a Optima battery and the first comments are........"I have heard bad things about those Optimas though (you probably have the yellow or blue?)... they used to be good, but in recent years have had serious quality control issues. " I'm fairly sure it's not a conspiracy to give Optima a bad name.

 

[OptimaJim]

RIZ, what your are claiming to be fact about our batteries simply is not true. While I can appreciate the fact that you've read a lot of conversations about our products on message boards, I read them as well.

Just this morning, I read a comment from someone on another 4x4 board, who claimed his RedTop died after a year. He even indicated he started another thread about that battery. The only thread I found was one he started about a RedTop that he thought was failing after five years and in that thread, he speculated that he might have a parasitic draw and admitted to deeply-discharging the battery when his vehicle went unused for several months.

I also found another thread he started, asking for help with an electrical issue that resulted in eight feet of melted wire. Was his battery five years old or one? Did he have issues because of a battery defect or abusive conditions? I don't know the answers to everyone's issues, but I know that if you take every statement or opinion someone posts on a message board as fact, you will never reach a consensus about anything.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

 

[nsxxtreme]

I also found another thread he started, asking for help with an electrical issue that resulted in eight feet of melted wire. Was his battery five years old or one? Did he have issues because of a battery defect or abusive conditions? I don't know the answers to everyone's issues, but I know that if you take every statement or opinion someone posts on a message board as fact, you will never reach a consensus about anything.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

Hi Jim,

I don't think people take everything everyone says as fact on forums. I think people sum up what everyone is saying. When I review a product I go straight to the negatives reviews first. Sure there are some people you will never please and some reviews are complete junk. But usually you can gain an ounce of truth if the reviews end up saying basically the same thing. Most of us would like to say good things about Optima as most of us became believers in the product when we were younger. Maybe we just get grumpier with age

I measured my sleep current when all the computers go to sleep and it was 160mA. Other people report 15mA as normal so somewhere mine is high. But I also wouldn't expect a fully charged Optima to die in 2 days at 160mA. I'd be happy to report a more pleasent experience with Optima batteries. I intend to root cause this issue before junking this battery. Just have been so busy lately at work I haven't had more time to diagnose this issue. Working on these cars isn't as simple as just disconnecting the battery afterwards you have to go through all 13 computers and clear the fault codes that get created from disconnecting the battery.

And a personal appology to the CK5ers for posting my RR problems on a CK5 website. Jim is here so I thought it was appropriate. It's a battery afterall and it functions the same no matter what car it's in.

 

[76zimmer]

You must have a fun job Jim.

I thought the drug industry was bad....and it is, but at least I don't have to look at the pharmaceutical forums...

 

[yellowK20]

YellowK20......... both your Optimas are older ones..... back when they were good. Go buy a new one and see if you getthe same results. I doubt you will.

RIZ

I don't need new ones, they have been working flawlessly

 

[riz]

That's my point, you don't need to buy new ones, the older Optimas were good.

RIZ

 

[yellowK20]

Well I have a yellow top in my Brown 79 K20 thats been in there for 4 years with no issues is that one off the good ones too?

it gets driven a little more because my dad has to move it to get to his boat in the pole barn

 

[cuervo]

Hello, I noticed your conversation regarding our batteries and wanted to offer some assistance. cuervo, I’m sorry to hear about the problems you’ve been having with your YellowTop. Can you tell me what the key-off load is on your Suburban? We have a video (tech tips #7) on YouTube (I'm not allowed to post links), which explains some basic battery diagnostics, including how to check your key-off load. Depending on how new your Suburban is, it may need to sit idle for a 30-40 minutes, to make sure all the computers have gone into sleep mode.

A typical vehicle has a key-off load of about 25 milliamps. If your key-off load exceeds 100 milliamps, there is an electrical draw present, which can discharge a battery in a relatively-short amount of time. It’s also a good idea to re-check wiring, as there is no such thing as grounds that are “too good” and one-wire alternators are especially sensitive to good, quality grounds.

The key to long battery life, regardless of brand or type, is maintaining at least 12.4 volts in your battery at all times. If you are planning on storing your vehicle for extended periods of time, a battery tender/maintainer is an excellent investment, which will help extend the life of your battery. If you elect not to use a tender or maintainer, it’s still a good idea to make sure batteries are fully-charged when a vehicle goes into storage and the voltage is checked periodically to maintain 12.4 volts.

It’s also a good idea to check your voltage again, when bringing your vehicle out of storage. If your battery needs to be charged, the best way to do that is with a battery charger. Relying on an alternator to recharge a deeply-discharged battery can lead to a cycle of dead batteries and jump-starts, until either the alternator or battery fails.

Optima was acquired by Johnson Controls in 2000, but our quality has continued to improve under their ownership. Most of the “bad” batteries returned to us today are just deeply-discharged and work fine when properly recharged. Most battery chargers work fine on Optimas, but most chargers will not charge any battery that has been discharged below 10.5 volts. If you do deeply-discharge an Optima below 10.5 volts, we have another video (tech tips #3) on YouTube, which explains how to recover a deeply-discharged battery. If you have any other questions, I’ll do my best to answer them.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.

I know this is a necro but...

I finally did the tech 7 test and my key-off amp draw is .06 mAmps even with the alarm on.

I took the altenator in for testing and it is putting out 14.4 and all other test pass.

If the Suburban sits for more then 4 or 5 days without getting started the battery is dead. I mean dead to the point the burb wont even turn over.

I completely charged the battery, 13.68 and left the cables off. I'm going to see what the volts are in a couple of days.

 

[OptimaJim]

Tim, I appreciate the update, regardless of how long it takes. You would be surprised how many folks simply never respond, leaving me wondering how things turned out. It is interesting to hear that your key-off draw is .06 milliamps, as I was having a conversation just the other day with a gentleman from England, who was convinced his SmartCar was only drawing 100 microamps. As it turns out, a friend measured his draw for him and when he actually measured the draw himself and verified he was measuring mA and not µA, he found his SmartCar was actually drawing 10 milliamps, which is not a significant draw, but far larger than the 100 microamps he originally thought. You may want to re-check your parasitic draw and perhaps even check it with the alarm on and off, to see if there is any difference. Have you measured the voltage in your YellowTop, since letting it sit? 13.68 volts indicates a surface charge, but it should be holding somewhere near 13.0-13.2 volts.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

 

[Smart John]

Tim, I appreciate the update, regardless of how long it takes. You would be surprised how many folks simply never respond, leaving me wondering how things turned out. It is interesting to hear that your key-off draw is .06 milliamps, as I was having a conversation just the other day with a gentleman from England, who was convinced his SmartCar was only drawing 100 microamps. As it turns out, a friend measured his draw for him and when he actually measured the draw himself and verified he was measuring mA and not µA, he found his SmartCar was actually drawing 10 milliamps, which is not a significant draw, but far larger than the 100 microamps he originally thought. You may want to re-check your parasitic draw and perhaps even check it with the alarm on and off, to see if there is any difference. Have you measured the voltage in your YellowTop, since letting it sit? 13.68 volts indicates a surface charge, but it should be holding somewhere near 13.0-13.2 volts.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

Hello Jim, I am that "gentleman from England". Having supplied you with the results of extensive bench tests of the faulty RedTop during slow discharge tests, showing clearly how it never produces even one half of its rated capacity. Your insistence on the significance of the parasitic current test was baffling to say the least, but I checked for you and indeed you were right. But that has no bearing whatsoever on the problem I've had with this battery which, you tell me, left the factory last year.

I remind you that I am about £700 out of pocket due to this purchase and I still don't have a working battery!

 

[Blue85]

Fortunately, I've been able to dispell those theories with facts.

I didn't see any facts in your post other than weighing 1 or 2 samples with a bathroom scale. That is far from conclusive. I am sure Optima (or JCI) has reams of scientific data from validation testing over the last couple of years. Now if you could share actual test data it would mean something. I appreciate the pickle that you're in because you are prevented from sharing any real data on a public forum. As an engineer, I know that the real data is there and somebody knows exactly what is going on. I also know that the real data is not shared with the P.R. guys.

The amount of complaints seems to exceed a statistical anomaly. Explain it as you wish, the customer is unhappy no matter how the problem occurred. If an Optima battery has to be treated in some special way, that takes away some of the inherent desirability.

 

[nsxxtreme]

I didn't see any facts in your post other than weighing 1 or 2 samples with a bathroom scale. That is far from conclusive. I am sure Optima (or JCI) has reams of scientific data from validation testing over the last couple of years. Now if you could share actual test data it would mean something. I appreciate the pickle that you're in because you are prevented from sharing any real data on a public forum. As an engineer, I know that the real data is there and somebody knows exactly what is going on. I also know that the real data is not shared with the P.R. guys.

The amount of complaints seems to exceed a statistical anomaly. Explain it as you wish, the customer is unhappy no matter how the problem occurred. If an Optima battery has to be treated in some special way, that takes away some of the inherent desirability.

I swaped out the optima for an orbital. My problem mysteriously went away.

I won't be buying optima's anymore.

 

[OptimaJim]

Hi John,

I know who you are and I hope you can understand the skepticism our engineers had regarding your extensive bench testing data, when I told them you also indicated your parasitic draw was 100 microamps. As I mentioned in our e-mail exchanges, it is sometimes challenging at best for me to assist someone halfway around the world and your contact information has been forwarded to one of our representatives on the other side of the Atlantic. If you do not hear from him next week, please contact me.

Blue85, as with this thread, that thread contained over 100 posts. Many of the posts in that thread included misinformation on a wide variety of topics, including who was the original inventor of Optima's Spiralcell technology (I provided a link to the actual patent), suggestions that our batteries are produced by another company and re-badged as Optimas (they are not), posts indicating we made manufacturing and/or ownership changes in 2003 that lead to a decline in quality (neither was the case), and posts indicating we use recycled lead in our batteries (we do not).

On the issue of battery weight, everyone in that thread who had an Optima battery and weighed it, found it to be well within the expected weight, which contradicted the numbers provided from memory, by those who no longer had any of our batteries to weigh. As you correctly indicated, we do have reams of data on our products and although I have access to specific numbers, I am not allowed to share them publicly. However, the information I do provide is supported by that data.

If the number of complaints folks read about our products online exceeded a statistical anomaly, we would have a hard time convincing any retailers to sell our products. Our true defect rate is and has historically been amongst the lowest in the industry. As a result, our batteries are the most-widely available replacement automotive batteries on the market, with more than 30,000 retailers worldwide. Does that volume lead to more conversations? Absolutely and we do our best to address concerns or questions customers may have about our products, wherever they take place.

An Optima does not have to be treated differently than a regular lead-acid battery under normal circumstances, but if it is deeply-discharged (typically below 10.5), some chargers may not recognize or charge the battery. I don't know if I've mentioned it specifically in this thread or not (it's hard to remember after 150+ posts), but this is a charger-specific issue and well-known throughout the industry. This issue has also been problematic enough for other manufacturers, that their warranties have specific language that void batteries discharged below specific voltage levels. That is why it is always a good idea to read the warranty and understand the return policy of any battery you are considering, before making a purchase.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.

 

[Smart John]

Hi John,

I know who you are and I hope you can understand the skepticism our engineers had regarding your extensive bench testing data, when I told them you also indicated your parasitic draw was 100 microamps. As I mentioned in our e-mail exchanges, it is sometimes challenging at best for me to assist someone halfway around the world and your contact information has been forwarded to one of our representatives on the other side of the Atlantic. If you do not hear from him next week, please contact me.

Oh yes Jim, I can quite understand their scepticism. It would be similar to my own when first you told me the battery is ten years old (based on the burn code) and then you said it was made last year (based on the serial number) when I mentioned I bought it last December.

 

[Polski-Chevy]

Hello Jim, I am that "gentleman from England". Having supplied you with the results of extensive bench tests of the faulty RedTop during slow discharge tests, showing clearly how it never produces even one half of its rated capacity. Your insistence on the significance of the parasitic current test was baffling to say the least, but I checked for you and indeed you were right. But that has no bearing whatsoever on the problem I've had with this battery which, you tell me, left the factory last year.

I remind you that I am about £700 out of pocket due to this purchase and I still don't have a working battery!

Holy Cow! $1144

Did the battery do damage or did it cost that much?

 

[cuervo]

Tim, I appreciate the update, regardless of how long it takes. You would be surprised how many folks simply never respond, leaving me wondering how things turned out. It is interesting to hear that your key-off draw is .06 milliamps, as I was having a conversation just the other day with a gentleman from England, who was convinced his SmartCar was only drawing 100 microamps. As it turns out, a friend measured his draw for him and when he actually measured the draw himself and verified he was measuring mA and not µA, he found his SmartCar was actually drawing 10 milliamps, which is not a significant draw, but far larger than the 100 microamps he originally thought. You may want to re-check your parasitic draw and perhaps even check it with the alarm on and off, to see if there is any difference. Have you measured the voltage in your YellowTop, since letting it sit? 13.68 volts indicates a surface charge, but it should be holding somewhere near 13.0-13.2 volts.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

Hey Jim,

I did check the drain with the alarm on and off, the draw with alarm off was .058. I also check with a door open to see how much the dome light would draw and it was 2.58.

After I check the draw I left the negitive cable off for the night. When I check the battery in the morning it was in the low 10s, like 10.23. I left the battery unhook for 4 days and when I check it it was at 3.44. Just for the heck of it I put the cable on and tried to start it. You know what the outcome was on that test.

Anyway, I took all my information and the reciept for the battery back to oRielly's auto parts this morning and got a new $199.00 yellow top 3478DT at no charge.

I'm not sure how they track warrenty batteries but if you get a 3478DT from Phenix City, AL 36870 it's probably my old one.

 

[chulisohombre]

so far ive heard a lot of good things about the orbital batterys.seeems like they are the new optima of 10 years ago.

 

[Smart John]

Holy Cow! $1144

Did the battery do damage or did it cost that much?

The problem I had before buying the Optima RedTop (£166) was that the car wouldn't start if left for a couple of weeks, so I chose Optima because of its advertised claim of being able to "retain a significantly greater amount of power, enough to start large vehicles like tractors, harvesters, and recreational vehicles even after a long winter of no use". It seemed OK for a while, but then let me down. It didn't occur to me then that the new battery could be faulty. I bought a battery charger (£60) to get going again and decided to get the alternator replaced (£300).

When that didn't solve it either, and after checking its voltage daily, I decided to get an ordinary cheap battery (£44) which completely cured the problem. I took the RedTop to the local Optima main dealer who tested it for me (with one of those funky new hand held testers) and he claimed it was fine. He suggested it may just need charging with a more sophisticated charger, so I bought a Ctek MSX10 (£104). Leaving the battery on that charger for days at a time made no difference either. Total cost £674.

One of Jim's suggestions (to restore a battery which has been deeply discharged) was to fully charge and then discharge to about 11V a few times. I did it 4 times, and kept a record of its voltage during discharge from which I was able to calculate the current drawn from it. I found that it will not provide even half its 50A/h rated capacity. I did the same test on the cheap replacement and found it produced about 90% of its 43A/h rated capacity. I mention that in case anyone reading this finds themselves in similar circumstances - with a battery which tests OK, but doesn't work well on the car. The discharge test is very revealing and there's a better way to do it if you have an inverter:

http://www.instructables.com/id/AmpHourTest/

A lot of the expense above was down to my misplaced faith in the Optima product. At about three times the price of an ordinary battery, one tends to expect their quality control to be good (and their after sales service to be exemplary).

 

[nsxxtreme]

A lot of the expense above was down to my misplaced faith in the Optima product. At about three times the price of an ordinary battery, one tends to expect their quality control to be good (and their after sales service to be exemplary).

With companies racing to the bottom as fast as they can and shipping production of everything overseas I have learned not to expect anything after the sale. You buy it that's it. The one's I worry about are the one's that promise you the world in order to get you to make that purchase. They are usually the first one's to disappear when something goes wrong.

Optima is living off their good name from the past that check will eventially bounce.

 

[OptimaJim]

John, as I mentioned in our e-mail conversation, we have date codes in three different locations on each battery, so we can verify the date of production, in the event that there is conflicting information amongst the codes. As I also mentioned in our e-mail conversation, my ability to assist you has limits and I have asked that one of our folks in Great Britain contact you directly, to assist you in resolving your sitatuion. Tim, I'm glad to hear you were able to get a warranty replacement for your battery and I have no idea why the draw on John's Smartcar is 168 times greater than the draw on your Suburban when your alarm is off and still nearly four times greater than the draw on your Suburban when your alarm is on. What brand and model of alarm are you using?


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.