ORD Springs-how much additional stuff is required?

[nutt7]

Hey! It’s been a minute since I posted here. With my government covid 19 stimulus, I’m seriously (finally) looking at new front springs. I have been daily driving on rough country for a decade and I deserve better, lol.

I want the ORD customs, but I’m curious what extra mods are required? I don’t make a ton of money, so the build is slow and mods I do are often times out of necessity.

My lift is currently and will stay at 4”. I daily my 89 suburban and usually I hit forest roads to camp, but I also need to tackle some rocks and harder stuff too. I did Lockhart Basin solo and in AZ, I did over 60 miles of washboard road on a trip to some ruins and I’ll never do either again on RCs! Shit was exhausting. I know in order to fully utilize the springs, I will need longer shocks. What else? My brake lines should work. Steering is stock, will I cause damage to the steering components while flexing ORDs out? Basically, I want to install the springs but not damage anything while I save up for other upgrades...I guess to sum it up: what’s the least I MUST do if I install custom ORD springs up front?

The current plan is: springs, bushings, u-bolts. I am trying for shocks and mounts too, but I also might hook up the sway bar again to help limit the travel until I get those new shocks. I am not too concerned if I damage the old shocks...that’ll force me to have to get new ones All input is welcome, thanks.

 

[Big Ray]

Welcome back!

 

[Smokinthehippies]

Brake lines. Probably steering and shock length are the things that come immediately to mind. Also potentially driveshaft. Since you’re already lifted it should help, but height with no travel isn’ta good comparison to what the custom springs will get you.

 

[Richcz28]

You will need crossover steering. I also have a long travel front driveshaft, but I don't know if that is a must. Nice bump stops allow them to excel at going fast.

This is also a good time to to really think about if you'd want a Dana 60 up front. There isn't much sense investing in crossover for the 10 bolt if you're just going to swap it out later.

 

[nutt7]

You will need crossover steering. I also have a long travel front driveshaft, but I don't know if that is a must. Nice bump stops allow them to excel at going fast.

This is also a good time to to really think about if you'd want a Dana 60 up front. There isn't much sense investing in crossover for the 10 bolt if you're just going to swap it out later.

A Dana 60 is in my plans...but when? Not sure. That will be awhile. That is one of the reasons I was hoping to hold out on steering. Between the crossover setups on the d44 vs d60, isn’t the only difference at the knuckle?

 

[nutt7]

Brake lines. Probably steering and shock length are the things that come immediately to mind. Also potentially driveshaft. Since you’re already lifted it should help, but height with no travel isn’ta good comparison to what the custom springs will get you.

If I get these springs, we have a few loading ramps nearby that I can test flex on after I remove the driveshaft and shocks. From there I can measure flex and compression of them all. Thanks

 

[red EOD]

For minimum necessity, longer brake lines.

To get the full benefit of the better spring travel the other items will be needed but are not absolutely necessary with the spring swap to keep the vehicle driving.

 

[Big Ray]

I don't think crossover is required for a 4" lift. There's an in depth tech article here somewhere that explains it in great detail. Should be able to get by with a drop pitman arm.

I'll post it when I find it.

 

[Big Ray]

From a previous thread.


Stephen said: ↑
What this boils down to in parts selection is that we run the factory steering up to 2" of lift and typically start using a drop pitman arm for 2.5" - 4" of lift. Then at 6" of lift we use the raised steering arm on the knuckle. At 8" of lift you need to start thinking about crossover even for a mostly on-road truck but using the raised arm with the drop pitman will work about as good as possible. Past that, the factory system doesn't do what most guys would call an acceptable job and you really need to convert to crossover.


Full article

 

[campfire]

I don't think crossover is required for a 4" lift. There's an in depth tech article here somewhere that explains it in great detail. Should be able to get by with a drop pitman arm.

I'll post it when I find it.

Required? No. But more travel will mean more variation in drag link angle. That will lead to variations in steering wheel angle.

Put simply, when I hit the brakes hard, the steering wheel slips through my fingers by a couple of inches. If I hold the wheel tightly, the truck swerves by that same amount. Spring travel changes the steering geometry. Crossover helps minimize that variation in steering geometry.

My springs are softer than most, but they're not long-travel springs, either. It depends what you're willing to live with.

 

[Big Ray]

Pulling to one side sounds like a brake issue. Does it pull to the same side every time...?

 

[campfire]

Pulling to one side sounds like a brake issue. Does it pull to the same side every time...?

The truck doesn't pull. The relationship between pitman arm and steering arm changes, so the "center" position on the steering wheel shifts momentarily. Hitting a speed hump does the same thing (though less noticeable). My truck has just a touch of roll steer, where rolling the body throws off the steering. All three are doing the same thing. When the left front spring compresses, the steering arm is pushed forwards, and the wheel turns slightly left. Or, if my hands are loose, the steering wheel cranks slightly right. The geometric relationship between the arms has changed. Do some reading on "bump steer."

If I had more power I'd have the opposite problem on acceleration. But I don't have enough oomph.

 

[Fastereddie]

A Dana 60 is in my plans...but when? Not sure. That will be awhile. That is one of the reasons I was hoping to hold out on steering. Between the crossover setups on the d44 vs d60, isn’t the only difference at the knuckle?

I can confirm on the crossover deal. When I switched from my 10 bolt to dana 60, I was able to reuse my existing ord crossover draglink. I actually had to trim a little bit off both ends, but it was all reusable.
I’m also pretty sure you’re going to want crossover with ord springs. They have so much travel, your stock draglink will hate you.

 

[Stephen]

The truck doesn't pull. The relationship between pitman arm and steering arm changes, so the "center" position on the steering wheel shifts momentarily. Hitting a speed hump does the same thing (though less noticeable). My truck has just a touch of roll steer, where rolling the body throws off the steering. All three are doing the same thing. When the left front spring compresses, the steering arm is pushed forwards, and the wheel turns slightly left. Or, if my hands are loose, the steering wheel cranks slightly right. The geometric relationship between the arms has changed. Do some reading on "bump steer."

If I had more power I'd have the opposite problem on acceleration. But I don't have enough oomph.

@campfire , you have a better feel than most for bump steer and roll steer. Let's leave that alone for a minute and start at the beginning:
When converting to our springs, the biggest thing is just to check your driveshaft, steering and brakelines at full droop. Technically you should unbolt the shocks and check them too. We have to have a deeper free arch to hold the truck to the same ride height with a softer rate so you'll have a couple inches (or more) more droop.

Brakelines need slack at full droop, no matter what. Most line kits for a 4" lift have a chance of working but all need to be checked. Fix is pretty cheap, a new pair of lines is $85 or you can do the cheap trick and re-locate the hardline. It's not pretty but it is mostly free and works.

Steering just needs to not bind up at full droop and also when the right side is fully stuffed in articulation and the driver's side is fully drooped. For the use you describe, the normal lift kit steering correction (the raised steering arm on the knuckle) will still make the steering work. Crossover is better but the stock type is usable.

The driveshaft can be a problem, typically if everything is just the right length a standard slip shaft can work but it's hard to figure out. Some way to limit the diff side droop travel may be a better option than replacing the driveshaft right away if it looks like it's going to pull apart. A limit strap is pretty cheap and won't cost you much travel and ride quality. It'll be night and day better than where you are now for sure!

Shocks, they are pretty cheap and don't have to be perfect for the use you describe. If they limit the articulation travel a little it's still going to ride WAY better. And if they limit droop a little they may help keep some of the other parts in safer operating zones.

On steering more specifically now. @campfire you might take a look at changing the configuration of your push-pull system, I had some steering pull under hard braking in my suburban with the TCI 3" springs and a stock pitman arm. Swapping to the 2" drop pitman arm fixed it. The push-pull steering system can be pretty good in straight ahead bumps and brake dive. It doesn't have a chance in articulation or body roll which is why swaybar disconnects are so nice with push pull, it fixes the body roll that makes the steering angry. You still have to live with it offroad but I'd rather have the ride quality than the steering precision for most milder use. i used to unhook the swaybar on stuff that I didn't even lock the hubs just to get the ride quality.

There's a lot of room between "optimum" and "good enough". I'd rather see you out using the truck with "good enough" than waiting for the resources to make it perfect.

And to the OP, your reasons for wanting our custom springs are exactly why I designed my first set. My catalyst trip was into the Maze District from Hite before they regularly graded the lower end of the road and the first trips were miserable. A few years later I repeated it with my K5 built to the end of it's leaf spring days and it was actually enjoyable. Custom springs, 2" reservoir shocks, crossover, lockers and 37" desert tires that I could air down. It turned into a sight seeing trip at that point but I started with just bolting the custom springs in with the white body shocks and push pull steering I'd been running with other lift kit 4" springs and it was still way better.

 

[campfire]

@campfire you might take a look at changing the configuration of your push-pull system, I had some steering pull under hard braking in my suburban with the TCI 3" springs and a stock pitman arm. Swapping to the 2" drop pitman arm fixed it.

Thank you. I will do some more testing this season. I'm running 3" EZ-ride springs with a stock pitman arm and a 4-ish inch lifted steering arm. The drag link is close to horizontal when the truck is level. I have a set of your swaybar bushings and disconnects, the swaybar will be reinstalled this year.

As you said, it has been good enough. It's a subtle wandering, not enough to cancel any road trips. But it's not as steady as before.

 

[nutt7]

@campfire , you have a better feel than most for bump steer and roll steer. Let's leave that alone for a minute and start at the beginning:
When converting to our springs, the biggest thing is just to check your driveshaft, steering and brakelines at full droop. Technically you should unbolt the shocks and check them too. We have to have a deeper free arch to hold the truck to the same ride height with a softer rate so you'll have a couple inches (or more) more droop.

Brakelines need slack at full droop, no matter what. Most line kits for a 4" lift have a chance of working but all need to be checked. Fix is pretty cheap, a new pair of lines is $85 or you can do the cheap trick and re-locate the hardline. It's not pretty but it is mostly free and works.

Steering just needs to not bind up at full droop and also when the right side is fully stuffed in articulation and the driver's side is fully drooped. For the use you describe, the normal lift kit steering correction (the raised steering arm on the knuckle) will still make the steering work. Crossover is better but the stock type is usable.

The driveshaft can be a problem, typically if everything is just the right length a standard slip shaft can work but it's hard to figure out. Some way to limit the diff side droop travel may be a better option than replacing the driveshaft right away if it looks like it's going to pull apart. A limit strap is pretty cheap and won't cost you much travel and ride quality. It'll be night and day better than where you are now for sure!

Shocks, they are pretty cheap and don't have to be perfect for the use you describe. If they limit the articulation travel a little it's still going to ride WAY better. And if they limit droop a little they may help keep some of the other parts in safer operating zones.

On steering more specifically now. @campfire you might take a look at changing the configuration of your push-pull system, I had some steering pull under hard braking in my suburban with the TCI 3" springs and a stock pitman arm. Swapping to the 2" drop pitman arm fixed it. The push-pull steering system can be pretty good in straight ahead bumps and brake dive. It doesn't have a chance in articulation or body roll which is why swaybar disconnects are so nice with push pull, it fixes the body roll that makes the steering angry. You still have to live with it offroad but I'd rather have the ride quality than the steering precision for most milder use. i used to unhook the swaybar on stuff that I didn't even lock the hubs just to get the ride quality.

There's a lot of room between "optimum" and "good enough". I'd rather see you out using the truck with "good enough" than waiting for the resources to make it perfect.

And to the OP, your reasons for wanting our custom springs are exactly why I designed my first set. My catalyst trip was into the Maze District from Hite before they regularly graded the lower end of the road and the first trips were miserable. A few years later I repeated it with my K5 built to the end of it's leaf spring days and it was actually enjoyable. Custom springs, 2" reservoir shocks, crossover, lockers and 37" desert tires that I could air down. It turned into a sight seeing trip at that point but I started with just bolting the custom springs in with the white body shocks and push pull steering I'd been running with other lift kit 4" springs and it was still way better.

Thank you so much! That’s encouraging info. I understand I wouldn’t initially be fully utilizing the springs to their potential, but as I said, this is also my daily and sadly here in WA, it’s big for the fun trails so it’s primarily a camping rig unless we plan a huge trip (every couple years). So I think I can do some minimal work for now, and adjust later. Also, I have a stock pitman arm, but a raised steering arm. I believe the link has a slight drop from pitman to steering arm

 

[Stephen]

Thank you. I will do some more testing this season. I'm running 3" EZ-ride springs with a stock pitman arm and a 4-ish inch lifted steering arm. The drag link is close to horizontal when the truck is level. I have a set of your swaybar bushings and disconnects, the swaybar will be reinstalled this year.

As you said, it has been good enough. It's a subtle wandering, not enough to cancel any road trips. But it's not as steady as before.

Try putting a stock steering arm on it with a drop pitman arm. The 4" raised steering arm makes the draglink too flat. It actually needs to run downhill a little to the knuckle in most cases so that the end of the draglink moves back as the spring flattens and moves the axle back. Or put up with it till you do crossover. Which is better but still not perfect.

 

[Big Ray]

Thanks Stephen.

 

[nutt7]

Well, I ordered a set! I'm pretty excited. I got springs, bushings, bolts, and u-bolts. I'll verify the drive shaft stays put for now, do some bumpstops, and then deal with the shocks another time.

 

[centexk5]

Very nice. I'm in the middle of the install of their springs and bilsteins, bushings, and shackles.