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Power wheels - dual 12v motor upgrade

Could you use a mopar ballast resistor ?...they reduce 12V to either 9 or 6 volts to the coil ,I think the coil is actually a 6 volt one designed to work in tandem with the resistor on 12V..

The ones for electronic ignition have two resistors mounted one above the other in a ceramic block and have male spade connectors on each one..mopar dual ballast resistor.jpg
 
my boys were getting tired of their 12v battery’s short charge so we decided to upgrade.
0727D4D1-3B78-412C-A5B2-1295A37032B2.jpeg


we got an 18 volt Milwaukee battery unit and added a rheostat motor control to dial down the voltage (amps)

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Then we took some old bike tires and made some mud terrains.

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Having a blast but there have been some complications.

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Our Jeep has a remote control receiver and the extra juice fried the 12 volt control unit.

I switched to a 24 volt control unit but the steering polarity was reversed. I swapped the wires on the steering motor and it worked fine until my oldest was trying to steer the other way that I was and he fried the circuit for the steering.

I went back to the 12 volt setup but ordered 40k rpm motors. I finally decided to set it back up to the original configuration for now until I don’t need the remote anymore.


I think that ballast resistor would get too hot to be in a kids car. I suggest you get one of these rheostat motor controls so you can dial it down or crank it up later.

just like the full size rigs once you upgrade one thing the next thing down the line can’t handle it.
 
I was hoping Rampage would jump in.
I worked out how the relays worked last night, but was too tired to try to post anything. Plus I didn't really trust myself to post something coherent.
He also found a better version of the spec sheet than I found yesterday.
BTW, as the relays are configured, you get dynamic braking.
His idea of putting 100 ohm resistors in the two control lines was my first thought, however, check out the image I posted. Zoom in if its too small. I had to download the original images so I could zoom them.
I'm pretty sure that the pin on the other end of the connector is the power source for the relays. One resistor in that line would do the same job as two in the others.

I have been trying to figure out where he could find a resistor. I briefly considered a light bulb, but the resistance change due to voltage is too great. And none of the bulb specs show current draw at different voltages.
Don't know what kind of stuff he has laying around in his "parts room", polite name for junk room, but he might find something that has one in it.
Color code is Brown Black Brown.
But, I am beginning to think that we need to back up and punt. 25-35 amps are going to seriously shorten the life of those relay contacts.
Diesel4me's link sounds like the best way to go at this point.
Simply hook the red lead from the board to the top center stud, the black lead to the side stud, the two control leads to the two spade terminals, and the white and blue wires to the two outside top studs.
If the car runs backwards, swap the two spade wires.

Note: the spec sheet for the new contactor does not tell if you get dynamic braking.
What will happen when going from 10K to 30k RPM, should be exciting. I would not let anyone in the car when its first powered up. The sudden acceleration from 0 to 30K instead of to 10K might snap the mounts and launch the motors.


View attachment 335221

Just quickly glanced through your post and I’ll have to read it more thoroughly when I have more time. Wouldn’t the power to the relays come from the large red wire (where it’s labeled ‘Power’ on the component side of the board)? I know they’re all connected together, I just figured that the power line on the 4 prong connector was used for a reference or small load elsewhere.
 
From the digging around I've done this morning, the motor will pull more than 25 amps in the grass with one person claiming 35 amps. That's a ton.

Also just realized I bought 30,000rpm motors instead of 10,000rpm like is stock. Oops.

Actually they would only pull 10A because the relays would cease to exist with any more. :rotfl:
 
CACBA079-7122-4917-8B9F-0F722CA7E1E7.jpeg

Here’s a sketch my buddy jotted down for this circuit using standard automotive relays.
 
Just quickly glanced through your post and I’ll have to read it more thoroughly when I have more time. Wouldn’t the power to the relays come from the large red wire (where it’s labeled ‘Power’ on the component side of the board)? I know they’re all connected together, I just figured that the power line on the 4 prong connector was used for a reference or small load elsewhere.

Darn it, I mis-typed. I warned you that turkey season had me fuzzy.

Here is what I typed <I'm pretty sure that the pin on the other end of the connector is the power source for the relays. One resistor in that line would do the same job as two in the others.>
Here is what I should have typed....<I'm pretty sure that the pin on the other end of the connector is the power source for the relay coils. One resistor in that line would do the same job as two in the others.>
I suppose technically I was correct, but I would never let an unclear statement like that get past me in normal times.
I figure that the four pin connector is using three pins. Two of them go to the coils of the two relays. The control switch has to get positive voltage from somewhere to power the coils, might as well get it from the same connector. That way one ribbon cable or something like that is all that is needed.
 
Couple of points:
First, the ballast resistors, any resistors for that matter, don't work that way.
The amount of voltage they drop (remove) depends on the amount of resistance in the rest of the circuit. If a resistor is the same size as the rest of the resistance, it will cut the voltage in half. Otherwise, the amount varies with the resistance of the circuit.
Which is why we said you need a 100 ohm resistor for the relay coils, because they are 100 ohms themselves.
As for your friend's schematic, I really think you need to let either Rampage look at it when he gets back, or me when I wake up tomorrow. A couple of things just don't look right to me, but I'm too far gone to wrap my brain around it right now.
 
Sorry, meant to get to this last night but dozed off longer than I figured after splitting wood all day.

At first I was really liking the reverse winch solenoid more and more that @diesel4me linked to, but I couldn’t find any spec sheets. Bob, have you used these before or have more info about them? The info that I did find was that they don’t have dynamic braking (the motor leads get shorted together when there’s no power applied) and the duty cycle is 50% @70A (5 min on and 5 min off) but that should probably at least double at 35A. How much of that is true I don’t know until I can find a spec sheet.

The schematic that pblaze725 posted I quickly glanced over and although it’ll work the thing I don’t like is that we don’t know anything about the reverse switch - I think his friend just wants you to get a new switch like he has drawn. How does the reverse switch work now - is it just a switch you press or is it a gear shift lever that flips the switch and is it a SPST or SPDT switch?

That’s why I was leaning towards using 4 relay - 2 for each motor just like the way it’s set up now.

But then I was re-reading this thread and you mentioned that the new motors are three times faster than stock, but at what voltage? Maybe we don’t even need to do anything. Have you tried hooking them up to see how fast it goes?
 
On the sketch I posted the forward reverse switch is the one that came with the power wheels.

My setup is different because I am using a remote control unit.

Using the Milwaukee battery has been frying my RC units. So I decided to try something different.


6584E356-F3DE-4F88-8C42-B119EDB29C3E.jpeg

Right now this is back to the normal 12 volt setup. I’m just keeping it going while waiting for more parts.
The unplugged connection is output power to the motors.

Here’s what I’m thinking now- FB72ED54-5CD3-4579-9EDA-1EB4B6AC604C.jpeg

I want to run the 12v power to activate the relay switch and run the 18v power through the bigger posts. power out will get the 7-70amp motor controller between the relay and the motors.

Any thoughts about this idea?
 
You definitely want dual motors. The cars just plain suck with 1 wheel drive. Plus having double the drive power is a no-brainer. Usually that's enough to let them run on grass with no other mods. Sure, the run-time is reduced but everybody knows to add a bigger battery and get away from the rip-off Power Wheels branded ones.

Also, usually running power wheels motors at their rated voltage is still too slow, but doubling it will fry the motors. I did one with dual 6V motors on a 12V battery by just building a simple PWM controller. I think it ended up around 8 or 9 volts.

The best one I did used a 24V scooter controller and I built a throttle pedal with a potentiometer for variable speed. The nice thing about the scooter controllers is that you get a soft-start built in that that saves the gear boxes, while letting you get as much top speed as the motors will handle. Also, you can put fixed resistors in the control line to set the output voltage to anything you want. You will kill any Power Wheels motors very fast at 24V. I don't know about aftermarket motors. I think that one got 15 or 16V to the motors and it really flew across the yard. Actually I still have all of those parts in a crappy old Bigfoot car I've been trying to get rid of. I would happily rip it all out and mail if somebody's interested and just junk the plastic body.
 
@rampage, between the two of us, if we could get enough sleep, there would be no stopping us....
I could not find any spec sheets on that relay either. But somewhere, Amazon I think, I saw a complaint in the comments section about the fact that it tied both outputs to the negative terminal when there was no control input. And a couple of other folks said the same thing.
So, you do get braking with it.
What I don't understand, is the duty cycle.
It changes with the current load. Which I take to mean that the contacts and the internal wiring to those contacts will heat up under those loads. If so, then I assume that there is an upper limit where the heating is not a problem. And if you get 5 minutes without damage at 70 amps, 35 is probably going to be approaching that limit. I suspect that its going to be better than double.
But, what about the internal actuating coils?
The link @diesel4me posted gives the duty cycle as continuous. I'm guessing that means the coils.

What I am unclear about is fairly basic. Didn't the original system have two motors? And if so, did they both run off the one relay board?
The friend's setup seems to add an unnecessary switch to the mix. It just happens I have used several of the rocker type switches to control and reverse fairly heavy current DC motors. I never found one that was rated more than about 20 amps. I switched more than that, but always had a spare handy.

HANG ON A MINUTE!!

You folks really should not treat a poor brain scrambled turkey hunter this way.......
I was beginning to think I was in worse shape than I thought.
Could not figure out why the heck we were introducing a DPDT rocker switch wired in reversing configuration into a system that was working fine without it.

Then the whole 6V vs 12V vs 18v, really scrambled me up.
Then when @pblaze725 said the reversing switch came with the truck, something finally snapped. I knew darn good and well that there was no reversing switch in the system I had been working with.
Looking back through the posts I finally found where there are two different posters. Now it makes sense.

So, here goes.
@centexk5, keep looking for a resistor. You may have to replace the relays with either heavier ones due to the current draw, in which case you can get the 12 volt ones and forget about the resistor.
If you do decide to replace them, the one reversing relay suggested before might be a good choice. It would be a lot heavier and would replace both relays at the same time.

@pblaze725, that relay would probably do the trick, but you need to replace the rocker switch with a SPDT switch with center off and maintained in all positions. That would control that relay well.
As for using both 12 and 18 volts, it should work if you are careful. The negative terminals of both the 12 and 18 volt batteries will have to share the negative post of the relay since the internal coils are hooked to it.
Make darn sure that the positive terminals of the two systems never touch. Bad things will result.

For both of you, if you want, you might consider drilling the rivets out of the relay when you get it and inspecting the internal parts. There were several posts on Amazon about them having very poor quality control. Supposedly they tended to work once or twice and quit, or only work in one direction.
A couple of folks opened them up and found that the design was OK, but the parts were not installed properly and the moving parts hit each other and could not function. In one case, part of the contact mount had been bent to make it work and the contact was not touching correctly and burned up.
My guess is that several companies make them, and some do better than others.

If you don't want to risk it, two regular 12volt DPDT relays wired like the board of @centexk5's system would drive both motors if they were heavy enough. And only need the SPDT switch I mentioned before.
And yes, they could be triggered with 12v and control whatever voltage you wanted to use to drive with.

I am going to take a nap, then get up and drive into town in defiance of the lockdown order.
Get some diesel for my tractor and spend the rest of the day trying to get my fields ready so I can try to get some kind of crop in the ground before it gets too late. I will check back in tonight.
 
I haven't yet gotten one of those winch contactors,but have friends who have them on ATV winches and they seem to work well..

The one I linked too "probably" has dynamic braking.most sold for use with permanent magnet motor powered winches do,they require it to prevent a load from just reeling the cable back out when you release the switch..

The Surplus Center lists several different types of these,with various amp & duty cycle ratings..this one linked below looks identical to the DB Electrical one and is also the lowest priced one they sell,it says in the info that it does have dynamic braking..

12 Volt DC Reversing Solenoid For Permanent Magnet Motors | DC Relays Contactors & Solenoids | Relays Contactors & Solenoids | Electrical | www.surpluscenter.com
 
Here’s what I’m thinking now- View attachment 335343

I want to run the 12v power to activate the relay switch and run the 18v power through the bigger posts. power out will get the 7-70amp motor controller between the relay and the motors.

Any thoughts about this idea?
You should find out how much current the coils in those reversing solenoids draw. It could be on the order of a few amps, which is not very friendly for something run off a small battery. Also, most of them are rated for intermittent duty. Little Power Wheels motors should be no problem for the contacts, but you may overheat the coils. For example, 2Ax12VDC is 24W and that could could make it stick or melt something after a few minutes.
 
@rampage, between the two of us, if we could get enough sleep, there would be no stopping us....
I could not find any spec sheets on that relay either. But somewhere, Amazon I think, I saw a complaint in the comments section about the fact that it tied both outputs to the negative terminal when there was no control input. And a couple of other folks said the same thing.
So, you do get braking with it.
What I don't understand, is the duty cycle.
It changes with the current load. Which I take to mean that the contacts and the internal wiring to those contacts will heat up under those loads. If so, then I assume that there is an upper limit where the heating is not a problem. And if you get 5 minutes without damage at 70 amps, 35 is probably going to be approaching that limit. I suspect that its going to be better than double.
But, what about the internal actuating coils?
The link @diesel4me posted gives the duty cycle as continuous. I'm guessing that means the coils.

What I am unclear about is fairly basic. Didn't the original system have two motors? And if so, did they both run off the one relay board?
The friend's setup seems to add an unnecessary switch to the mix. It just happens I have used several of the rocker type switches to control and reverse fairly heavy current DC motors. I never found one that was rated more than about 20 amps. I switched more than that, but always had a spare handy.

HANG ON A MINUTE!!

You folks really should not treat a poor brain scrambled turkey hunter this way.......
I was beginning to think I was in worse shape than I thought.
Could not figure out why the heck we were introducing a DPDT rocker switch wired in reversing configuration into a system that was working fine without it.

Then the whole 6V vs 12V vs 18v, really scrambled me up.
Then when @pblaze725 said the reversing switch came with the truck, something finally snapped. I knew darn good and well that there was no reversing switch in the system I had been working with.
Looking back through the posts I finally found where there are two different posters. Now it makes sense.

So, here goes.
@centexk5, keep looking for a resistor. You may have to replace the relays with either heavier ones due to the current draw, in which case you can get the 12 volt ones and forget about the resistor.
If you do decide to replace them, the one reversing relay suggested before might be a good choice. It would be a lot heavier and would replace both relays at the same time.

@pblaze725, that relay would probably do the trick, but you need to replace the rocker switch with a SPDT switch with center off and maintained in all positions. That would control that relay well.
As for using both 12 and 18 volts, it should work if you are careful. The negative terminals of both the 12 and 18 volt batteries will have to share the negative post of the relay since the internal coils are hooked to it.
Make darn sure that the positive terminals of the two systems never touch. Bad things will result.

For both of you, if you want, you might consider drilling the rivets out of the relay when you get it and inspecting the internal parts. There were several posts on Amazon about them having very poor quality control. Supposedly they tended to work once or twice and quit, or only work in one direction.
A couple of folks opened them up and found that the design was OK, but the parts were not installed properly and the moving parts hit each other and could not function. In one case, part of the contact mount had been bent to make it work and the contact was not touching correctly and burned up.
My guess is that several companies make them, and some do better than others.

If you don't want to risk it, two regular 12volt DPDT relays wired like the board of @centexk5's system would drive both motors if they were heavy enough. And only need the SPDT switch I mentioned before.
And yes, they could be triggered with 12v and control whatever voltage you wanted to use to drive with.

I am going to take a nap, then get up and drive into town in defiance of the lockdown order.
Get some diesel for my tractor and spend the rest of the day trying to get my fields ready so I can try to get some kind of crop in the ground before it gets too late. I will check back in tonight.

No kidding, I woke up just after 3am to toss some wood in the stove and thought ‘Ah crap I forgot to write that post.’ :doah:

And that’s a whole lot of info from you and everyone else to take in all at once. :eek1: I need to let it all soak in and re-read it more thoroughly. But if this was my project I’d do what @Blue85 did and rewire everything using a variable speed gas peddle with a potentiometer. :pimp:
 
To clarify with my remote control receiver unit the polarity switches for reverse at the posts I showed. This is a 12 volt system already.

When the kids learn to drive it on their own you flip a switch on the dash to go from RC to manual drive and there is a forward/ reverse rocker switch also a fast/ slow switch too.
 
Apparently delirious Tyler bought this on ebay last night:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/282547072306

12v 2ch 30a relay module. Apparently I selected some option that required me to pay for it and can't cancel it. ****ing ebay. Guess I'll be soaking this thing in bleach before I open it, you know, when it arrives on May 22. Oh well. It was only $9.

When I get home this evening I'm going to tear the wiring harness out of this thing so I can get my hands on it and that'll probably help everything y'all've said come in to focus and I can come up with a game plan from there. For now I think I'm going to hook it up as is and see what happens.
 
Just to add a small comment, @pblaze725, you say you keep burning out your 12V remote control receivers, you do know a simple LM7812 regulator would cure that? Right?
Its a simple three terminal linear regulator that will take from 15 to 35 volts and give you 12 volts at about one amp.
A couple of small capacitors are usually used for stability, but in a pinch I have gotten away with just running one straight.
They run about $1.5 in single lots.
Here is a spec sheet, I think it worked.
The problem with these, is that they are linear. So, they have to dissipate the excess power as heat and are not that efficient.

Here is a drop-in replacement for them that is a switching regulator and therefore very efficient. They don't usually require a heatsink, but are limited to a half amp. Not sure how much your receiver draws.

https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/r/recom-power/r78-series
 

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Everything is 22ga wire. Switches are momentary on/off for the throttle, a toggle for forward or reverse, and then a push button for on/off. Heading to oreilly's now to pick up wire and connectors and switches.

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Well oreilly's was a bust. Got all the stuff to make a new harness but couldn't find the switches I needed so I'll have to order those. I also snagged some 12v relays.
 
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