Re-do! Need help figuring out my front end setup.

[metalneverdies]

Back in 2013 I installed my ORD Alcan front springs and shackles. After originally wanting to go with 3" springs, I decided to go with 4" for ease of crossover steering and the extra travel for a smoother ride. I strategically ordered 4" springs to use with 33" tires so I could fit in a normal garage with no issues. Worst case I would have to air down a little bit.

I was told way back when I was complaining after installing the springs, stock top of axle tube to bottom of bump plate for a stock height truck is 8.5" to 9". My truck sits at 14". So I have 5.5" - 5" of lift on the front. I am running DIY4X rear shackle flip.

To this day (several k miles and 4 years later) I am still really frustrated with the springs. They are NOT 4", they NEVER settled to 4". So now I have to air down until almost fully flat tires with my undersized 31" tires to even think about getting in the garage. The springs ride great in a straight line or offroad but the truck is nearly undriveable without a sway bar at highway speed. I kind of got used to it, my wife still freaks out about riding in it. I knew it wouldn't be the best at high speed going in, but they surprised me. I swear I can feel the axle get sucked sideways when I hit a puddle driving down the road! Maybe the EZ rides are what I need? Re-arching the ORD Alcans will probably be outrageously expensive? I have already spent a ton on the springs and had been unhappy since the beginning. I just kept hoping they would get settled in.

I am currently re-doing my transmission which requires rewiring the LS harness. So I am going to take this time to re-build it into exactly what I want. The wife and I pretty much only use the truck for camping, light trails, "overland" style stuff, and hope to make some pretty long distance BDR trips.

Current Setup:

• Carshop Inc setback plates for motor mounts
• Rubber Motor and Trans mounts
• Stock Crossmember

Things I am considering changing:

• Engine mounts - DIY4X, ORD?
• Engine crossmemeber - LS engine setup, which crossmemeber for no clearance issues with motor and crossover steering
• All poly trans mounts so I hopefully stop shearing off the bolt on the bell housing which holds the NP208 T-case support rod
• Figure out front springs
• Finally FIX AC - Mount setup? DIY4X or ORD allow use of stock LS location AC setup?
• Adding Front receiver winch mount for a removable winch. - Shouldn't drop the front much. Had someone sit on the front bumper and the truck drops less than 1/4" with their additional weight.

Any advice or help on my setup? Thoughts about changes?

 

[K5wrench]

This is my setup with Tuff Country HD 3" lift springs.
Why don't you just get ORD's sway bar correction kit as seen in my pic and put your sway bar back on?

I bet ORD could fab you a custom height disconnect.

 

[metalneverdies]

This is my setup with Tuff Country HD 3" lift springs.
Why don't you just get ORD's sway bar correction kit as seen in my pic and put your sway bar back on?

I bet ORD could fab you a custom height disconnect.


View attachment 265822

I had their swaybar correction kit. I had to take it off for crossover and without crossover the steering was terrible being lifted 5.5 - 5 inches. Which is really the main issue.

I have about 3/4 of everything needed to make my own swaybars that will work with crossover.

 

[metalneverdies]

This is my setup with Tuff Country HD 3" lift springs.
Why don't you just get ORD's sway bar correction kit as seen in my pic and put your sway bar back on?

I bet ORD could fab you a custom height disconnect.


View attachment 265822

I assume the HD sit a little higher than a standard 3" lift kit? Your at 13". From what I have gotten info wise that's at around a 4" kit.

 

[K5wrench]

I assume the HD sit a little higher than a standard 3" lift kit? Your at 13". From what I have gotten info wise that's at around a 4" kit.

Yea, i have the 3" springs up front and 4" shackle flip rear with the stock springs.
I went with the HD front springs because the 6.2 diesel is a heavy engine.
It sits about level.
ORD asked me if i usually have the fiberglass top on and suggested the 4" rear when I said I do.
Glad I got this setup.
Rides like a dream with the sway bar on the highway but pull those pins and it's much smoother off road with it disconnected.
The springs are spanking new.
I don't know if they will settle any but i like it level anyways.
Bummer about your cross over interference issue.
That sway bar would firm it right up.

 

[CrpMag122]

Yea, i have the 3" springs up front and 4" shackle flip rear with the stock springs.
I went with the HD front springs because the 6.2 diesel is a heavy engine.
It sits about level.
ORD asked me if i usually have the fiberglass top on and suggested the 4" rear when I said I do.
Glad I got this setup.
Rides like a dream with the sway bar on the highway but pull those pins and it's much smoother off road with it disconnected.
The springs are spanking new.
I don't know if they will settle any but i like it level anyways.
Bummer about your cross over interference issue.
That sway bar would firm it right up.

I ran into a similar problem with my lift, which is the ORD (Alcan) springs. When turning the steering on a trail the whole axle would travel side to side terribly, which I knew was a possibility. What I ended up doing is going with the redneck ram hydro assist. It fixed the issue and has made it a lot more enjoyable on the street, not to mention the trail.

 

[jkroberts]

Poly engine and transmission mounts are definitely needed. On my LS I used the dirty dingo brackets with poly inserts in the stock clamshell mounts. I've done a few truck with this setup and they work great. I also ran the stock crossmember for years. I just trimmed the front face a tad to clear the drag link. It wasn't until I went coilovers that I went to a tube crossmember.

Which brings me to the suspension... Coilovers may be a thing to consider. There is zero body roll with the kit I put on my K10. It does not too tall for you at 6" of lift, but that can be easily changed. Even with how tall it is I can take corners going way faster than I should and there still isn't any body roll.

Your other option to limit body roll (or at least slow it down) is to add a big shock that you can tune. That's not going to stop body roll, but it will definitely make it feel more stable.

Yet another option is to add some hydraulic bump stops. This would probably be your last resort as I think it would make it ride like crap. The idea is to set them up so they are only an inch or 2 above the axle so when the truck leans to one side, the bump stops touch and stop the body roll. The problem is that when you hit a bump, they will probably make the overall ride stiffer. You could get trick and make some adjustable or quick detatch mounts and only run them when your wife is with you.

 

[K5wrench]

I wonder what is moving so much under your rigs.
Had a friend with a Scout that had a front Shackle lift combined with front lift springs for 6 inches.
6" Blocks in the rear.
Terrible axle wrap in the rear.
Anyways, his front shackles were so loose on the spring eyes, the truck would shift from one side to the other over the front axle while just cruising down the road.
He could even make it do it to the beat of the gansta rap music he played all the time.
Is it possible you have too much clearance there needing a big washer or something?

Also, if it is too much lift, why not go with these Tuff Country HD's.
I really like them.

 

[CrpMag122]

I wonder what is moving so much under your rigs.
Had a friend with a Scout that had a front Shackle lift combined with front lift springs for 6 inches.
6" Blocks in the rear.
Terrible axle wrap in the rear.
Anyways, his front shackles were so loose on the spring eyes, the truck would shift from one side to the other over the front axle while just cruising down the road.
He could even make it do it to the beat of the gansta rap music he played all the time.
Is it possible you have too much clearance there needing a big washer or something?

Also, if it is too much lift, why not go with these Tuff Country HD's.
I really like them.

The Alcan springs are very very soft, when you throw that into the mix of going to crossover steering with side to side movement across the axle, it actually torques the springs side to side. At least that what happened with mine.

There was no loose tolerances or anything, but I called ORD and confirmed it was normal. Gentlemen I spoke to at ORD, I think it was @Stephen , said it was the nature of the beast.

 

[K5wrench]

If you are only trying to clear 33's.
4 or 5 inch lift.
Why cross over steering?
A dropped pitman arm or drag link could do it.
Seems like it's causing a lot of problems.

 

[6872xtc]

I can vouch for the fact that ORD springs let the axle move sideways more than other springs. If they were stiff enough to hold the axle in line better, the ride wouldn't be better than all of the others. I have driven a '90 with 6" ORD fronts, and a flip in the rear with 2" Superlift springs. The rear was more dominant , and it all was affected by how the shocks were set. It has Walker Evans shocks on it. With the hyrdo assist on it, I just let it do a little of what it wanted through uneven dips. I let the steering wheel move some and just kept the overall direction of the truck on sight line. I learned from driving ill-handling semi trucks, to limit how much to fight it. No, this isn't perfect, but it is cheaper than coilovers, while still giving a good ride.
I wonder how much could be helped with the right shock? I see that yours are a white body, I don't know what they are. I like my Bilstein shocks!
As far as cross-over versus modified stock steering , I liked how mine got rid of the steering correction needed during hard braking.
As far as engine crossmember, I like the ORD one, but I think that the TNA one is nice too. It needs 4" of lift to clear it, but has track bar mount built into it. I track bar could help or hurt your truck, not sure. I got one, and decided not to use it, because I wanted the lower lift height than 4".
The LS swap stuff, I can't help.

 

[Blue85]

I have similar springs and steering and I don't feel anything I would describe as the axle moving side-to-side, but the body roll does change the driving experience a lot. Also, cross-over steering by itself has a different feel than push-pull and it takes some getting used to. Some members say that push-pull bump steers like crazy and crossover is a perfect fix, but some of us claim the opposite (search). So if you hit a bump and the steering wheel moves a little, that doesn't mean the axle is moving around.

But hey, maybe something is just loose. Fire it up and look at everything underneath while somebody saws the wheel around. Maybe your upper shackle bushings are shot or some of the bolts aren't tight. Your pictures could be an illusion, but it looks like the U-bolts are tilted and almost like the springs aren't straight with the spring pad. Sure the center-pins have the right size head and the U-bolts are tight? You're not leaving spring or shackle bolts loose on purpose, are you?

 

[metalneverdies]

I wonder what is moving so much under your rigs.
Had a friend with a Scout that had a front Shackle lift combined with front lift springs for 6 inches.
6" Blocks in the rear.
Terrible axle wrap in the rear.
Anyways, his front shackles were so loose on the spring eyes, the truck would shift from one side to the other over the front axle while just cruising down the road.
He could even make it do it to the beat of the gansta rap music he played all the time.
Is it possible you have too much clearance there needing a big washer or something?

Also, if it is too much lift, why not go with these Tuff Country HD's.
I really like them.

I am pretty sure everything looks tight. I have double checked and torqued everything to spec a couple times. The truck drives straight as an arrow on a smooth surface. It only feels like the axle is moving around when a tire hits a pothole or water puddle. You can feel a little side to side movement, especially when sitting still and turning the steering wheel but I expected this with crossover steering.

As for the Tuff Country EZ rides, I was debating switching to them... I already spent $$$ on the Alcans, I really wish mine were the height I wanted...

If you are only trying to clear 33's.
4 or 5 inch lift.
Why cross over steering?
A dropped pitman arm or drag link could do it.
Seems like it's causing a lot of problems.

Originally I had the raised drag link setup. Even added a dropped arm. Truck drove terrible. One side turned about half as well as the other. Need to make a U-turn? That was a 4 point turn in cul de sac. Steering was so far from linear it was crazy. LOVE the way the crossover works regardless of how twisted up I am. I am back to the turning radius of a compact car; one of the best parts of owning a K5.

I can vouch for the fact that ORD springs let the axle move sideways more than other springs. If they were stiff enough to hold the axle in line better, the ride wouldn't be better than all of the others. I have driven a '90 with 6" ORD fronts, and a flip in the rear with 2" Superlift springs. The rear was more dominant , and it all was affected by how the shocks were set. It has Walker Evans shocks on it. With the hyrdo assist on it, I just let it do a little of what it wanted through uneven dips. I let the steering wheel move some and just kept the overall direction of the truck on sight line. I learned from driving ill-handling semi trucks, to limit how much to fight it. No, this isn't perfect, but it is cheaper than coilovers, while still giving a good ride.
I wonder how much could be helped with the right shock? I see that yours are a white body, I don't know what they are. I like my Bilstein shocks!
As far as cross-over versus modified stock steering , I liked how mine got rid of the steering correction needed during hard braking.
As far as engine crossmember, I like the ORD one, but I think that the TNA one is nice too. It needs 4" of lift to clear it, but has track bar mount built into it. I track bar could help or hurt your truck, not sure. I got one, and decided not to use it, because I wanted the lower lift height than 4".
The LS swap stuff, I can't help.

I have the ORD tuned Bilsteins. They are ok at lower speeds and on smooth roads. Definitely not the greatest. They are definitely the brushed finish, not sure why they look white in the pics.

My K5 nose dives like crazy when I am braking. Anything above a slow, smooth, causual application of brake and the front drops several inches and the steering wheel turns a bit. So mine didnt loose all the bump steer but I just let it wallow about and keep going.

I believe, ORD says 4" of clearance needed for their cross member too.

I have similar springs and steering and I don't feel anything I would describe as the axle moving side-to-side, but the body roll does change the driving experience a lot. Also, cross-over steering by itself has a different feel than push-pull and it takes some getting used to. Some members say that push-pull bump steers like crazy and crossover is a perfect fix, but some of us claim the opposite (search). So if you hit a bump and the steering wheel moves a little, that doesn't mean the axle is moving around.

But hey, maybe something is just loose. Fire it up and look at everything underneath while somebody saws the wheel around. Maybe your upper shackle bushings are shot or some of the bolts aren't tight. Your pictures could be an illusion, but it looks like the U-bolts are tilted and almost like the springs aren't straight with the spring pad. Sure the center-pins have the right size head and the U-bolts are tight? You're not leaving spring or shackle bolts loose on purpose, are you?

Center-pins are in the stock mounts, They are not 100% centered being the pins are a bit smaller than the openings they fit into. The U bolts are tight. I have tapped them with a hammer to make sure they are not going to move and torqued them a few times to the recommended settings. All spring eye and shackle bolts were tightened down to recommended torque.

 

[K5wrench]

I've got the 4" dropped Pitman arm and the ORD steering brace installed.
My frame had no cracks or I'd have put the weld in frame repair too.
How is the frame under your steering box?
Is your front bumper still bolted tight?
A lose or missing bumper or cross member lose can create a terrifying amount of frame flex up front.

Like others suggested, lay under there and watch while someone else turns the wheel lock to lock.

I just about have the same lift as you with stock steering arrangement and dropped Pitman and my m1009 drives solid as a rock over bumps, potholes and railroad tracks at 75 mph.

Now those spring center pins need to fit tight.
I had to line them up carefully and it took even torque on the u bolts to squeeze them into the holes in the spring perches.
If those are loose, that axle will move no matter how tight the u bolts are.

Something isn't right.
Your rig should'nt ride that loose.
What about ball joints? (Can't remember if you had a d44 or 60 up front) king pins then.
Steering box wear?

There is something missing.

Edit:
Check your wheel bearings.
Maybe a repack and proper preload is needed.

 

[skunked]

How long are your front shackles?

as mentioned by @CrpMag122 I would add hydro assist. It's likely even a steering stabilizer would help but I wouldn't go through that work with high steer. The dipping and sway of the truck is the compromise for having offroad springs however sway bar(s) and quality shocks with proper valving will help.

and for engine mounts I wouldn't run clamshells, even poly will rip and fail. I'd recommend a stronger design such as the DIY4X's.

 

[6872xtc]

The ORD engine crossmember needs 2" of lift, which is why I bought it, instead of using the TNA one that I had on hand. But you have enough room, regardless.
But these springs will definitely feel less precise on the road, which as said, is the trade-off for the ride improvement on rough stuff. I hope that you find something to help it out some, but I definitely would never pull out their custom springs for Tuff Country.
@K5wrench , I know that you would notice an improvement in ride between Tuff Country and ORD spec springs. But you would have to experience it yourself. But unfortunately leaf springs aren't the perfect way to suspend an axle for every situation.

 

[skunked]

but I definitely would never pull out their custom springs for Tuff Country.

maybe for a mall crawler but never for anything that see's a trail.

 

[K5wrench]

The ORD engine crossmember needs 2" of lift, which is why I bought it, instead of using the TNA one that I had on hand. But you have enough room, regardless.
But these springs will definitely feel less precise on the road, which as said, is the trade-off for the ride improvement on rough stuff. I hope that you find something to help it out some, but I definitely would never pull out their custom springs for Tuff Country.
@K5wrench , I know that you would notice an improvement in ride between Tuff Country and ORD spec springs. But you would have to experience it yourself. But unfortunately leaf springs aren't the perfect way to suspend an axle for every situation.

I get that ORD springs are going to be much softer than my Tuff Country HD's.
Can't compare to what he's got there.
But the loss of stability he gets on the road over potholes sounds odd.
Like something else is not right.
Hard to tell though.
One man's rough ride is another man's Cadillac.

 

[6872xtc]

maybe for a mall crawler but never for anything that see's a trail.

I pulled TC EZ-ride out of my '70, and it made the on-road SO MUCH BETTER!!!!
I left it parked a fair bit , because I hated the ride. Now I just have to fix the rear.

 

[ridenby]

Like women, ones slop is anothers babydoll. I have ord springs in front, rolls over on some turns, fills Good on the offroad stuff.