Response to Tim in Shaggy's post (re: Allison tranny)

[Leadfoot]

I did not want to take Shaggy's post on any more of a tangent so I am responding here:

AFAIK the 1000 series Allison is the only one ever to have park. (IE, the wanna be Allison)

You are correct. I believe there are laws stating that automatic equipped vehicles sold in this country have to have a park pawl setup as well as an auxilary mechanical brake. That is why the Allison 1000 was designed that way. As for the it being a wanna-be Allison. Yes it's smaller and different design than the units they use in the large passenger buses or construction equipment, but then again you would never be able to fit one of those units in a 1 ton truck. Plus light duty trucks do not have air brakes. Does it put the other automatic offerings from GM (past and present) as well as Ford and Dodge to shame...Yes. As for hard parts, I would venture a guess that it might even be stronger than an NV5600 once a billet converter is installed. Most of the issues had with the Allison are due to clutch slippage which can be corrected with valve body adjustments (both mechanical and electrical), but not due to hard part failures (If you find some let me know, just like all the Duramax's that are supposedly blowing heads....). I'll also see if I can dig up some pics of an exploded NV5600. Neither are indestructable.

Manuals have there place, so do automatics, and in some arenas either will work it's just a matter of preference. Also, one would assume a manual would be better for truck pulling as there is less parasitic loss (due to fluid pumping in an automatic), so more power would hit the ground, but there are other variables (power lost between shifts in a manual) that makes automatics better in some classes. I agree that you don't want to use a crappy tranny (automatic or otherwise) in a high HP/Torque situation, but to each his own. Hell, I tow my landscape trailer fully loaded (in Overdrive too) and then do double duty pulling a 45,000 lb. transfer sled with a reworked 700r4 and it's living very happily. From what everyone has and is telling me, the thing should have puked long time ago. I agree it will not last forever and I am planning on swapping that into my other pickup and put a full manual 4l80 in the pulling truck as I would like to jump up another class but still drive it if/when needed.


Will an automatic have to be rebuilt at some point....yes.
Will a clutch have to be replaced in a manual at some point....yes.
Is a clutch easier and cheaper to do than an auto rebuild....hell yes.
Does a manual tranny suck in stop and go, bumper to bumper traffic....hell yes

It all depends on what your looking for.

Just because your not an automatic fan, doesn't mean they all suck or don't have there place. I for one am glad to finally see an auto tranny that:

Has 5 forward speeds
Tow/Haul features
Automatic downshifts on hills (compliment/saving brakes)
Can take the torque of a diesel
Easy to service (external and interal filter)

I have driven manuals and auto's (my current car is a manual and past pickups have been manuals). There are times where I like the ability to shift manually, but then there are times I don't. With my auto's I at least have the ability to manually downshift if needed without having to clutch. The times I miss the manual the most in when I'm driving an underpowered (for size/load) vehicle as I can decide how long to delay a shift and keep the motor in a better powerband. In vehicles where there is enough power to pull a load in a higher gear without downshifting, a manual is not preferred for a DD for me

 

[Shaggy]

For my money, the Allison is the only auto that I would want in any new HD truck. Historically Dodge has a hard time building a reliable slushbox so I wouldn't bet money on the new one, although a buddy of mine managed 120k on the auto in his '02 Dodge CTD before needing a rebuild which is more than I expected. People seem to like the new Ford tranny, but I drove a truck with one and wasn't impressed.

Sometimes I think that I just can't be impressed by auto trannies though, possibly because the manufacturers tune them to shift real soft so as not to jar Grandma's goiter or whatever. Maybe I could reprogram an auto tranny to act like I would like it to, but I'm not sure if I'd want to do that to a new truck, I'd rather pick my own gears. Unfortunately GM doesn't think it's worth it to offer a manual tranny in a truck that's optioned out, and they won't build a flywheel that can take the power of the D-max anyways. Oh well, good thing that I would be OK with the Ally I guess.

 

[rjfguitar]

Yes. As for hard parts, I would venture a guess that it might even be stronger than an NV5600 once a billet converter is installed. Most of the issues had with the Allison are due to clutch slippage which can be corrected with valve body adjustments (both mechanical and electrical), but not due to hard part failures

I don't think any auto on the market is as strong as the NV5600. That is one large hunk of iron. I will venture to say that the current the 47RE and 48RE HD autos out of the dodges are the toughest trannies being tweaked currently but that is with a few custom internal hardparts. ATS, DTT, and sun coast are building the two dodge trannies to live behind bombed cummins making 800+HP and 1600ft lbs+ torque, without failing. I don't think the modified allison is up there yet due to two factors:

1) People are not getting the Dmax's power numbers as high as the CTD's, probably mainly from the lack of aftermarket help at the moment. IIRC of course.

2)The allison has not yet had extremely high numbers put towards it and are not aware of what hardparts could be a weak link. IIRC of course.

Obviously with the Ford 5 spd auto it is still too new to see much aftermarket improvement.


Shaggy,
I partly believe that dodge will never outlive their reputation of weak autos. I honestly don't think the newer models carry the same rep. as the older dodge pickups before Daimler. You mentioned a friend with an '02, my '01.5 CTD has 105K on the ticker and the 47RE still shifts good and strong. Who knows though.

 

[Leadfoot]

1) People are not getting the Dmax's power numbers as high as the CTD's, probably mainly from the lack of aftermarket help at the moment. IIRC of course.

2)The allison has not yet had extremely high numbers put towards it and are not aware of what hardparts could be a weak link. IIRC of course.

I don't know if they will ever get as much power out of a D-max as they can out of a Cummin's (we shall see).

Inline motors seem to have a better torque curve by design, but the statement that "there is no replacement for displacement" is also valid.

If the D-max can be made to handle the boost that Cummin's are, then they will be more powerful. I know even a bombed Cummin's has to be beefed and have the heads o-ringed. If they can do the same for Ford or GM in the future, Dodge may be in trouble. Only time will tell and it may never happen. I'll be the first to admit that the Cummins is a strong simple motor. (sometimes KISS is the way to go).

You are correct that the Allison has not had the power put to it to test it (like a twin turbo Cummin's with tons of boost towing an insane load). All I know is that each and every hardpart in the unit, dwarf's the Dodge or Ford. Yes material in which each component is constructed makes a difference, but size does matter.


I also want to make clear that I'm not saying the Allison is the "be all and end all of trannies". By design it's bulky, heavy (alot of fluid), and does require more power to run than a manual. I was just trying to say that there is a place and a market for auto's and it's nice that they are designing them to deal with the power that newer trucks (mainly diesels) are putting out. My statement about the Allison vs. NV5600 was mainly to see if I could illicit a response from Tim .

I will say that I have seen the internals of an NV5600 and while beefy, they don't seem as beefy as the internals of the Allison****


footnote
****
I have not been able to compare side by side yet. The guy that built the 700 in my pulling truck and is going to be building the 4L80 has not had an Allison apart in the shop for me to look at (he sponsors my pulling truck so I stop by his shop from time to time). He took one apart and put it back together at a buddies shop to diagnose a problem (after the owner tried to modify it himself) and I'm going by his description of the internals and sizes. He specializes in drivetrains, and does Tranny's (auto and manual), t-cases, and Ring and Pinions. He's seen alot and knows how to beef them. To everyone with Dodge's you will probably like to know he owns an 04 with Cummins and auto tranny as he is big into power. He has already swapped out the air intake, exhaust, injectors, and installed a second turbo (the thing is insane). He (BEFORE it gave him problems), dropped the tranny and rebuilt it, with modified parts, valve body, as well as a billet converter and has not had a single problem yet. It helps that it's his "shop truck" and can write alot of that off (as well as the tires he goes through). He did say the Ally was a MUCH beefier tranny, but he wanted the Cummins and figures he can always fix his tranny if needed.

 

[Nonesuch]

This isn't 100% on topic but....

Not all auto equiped vehicles sold in America have to have a park feature. That may be a true statement for passenger vehicles but I have driven/rode/worked on several large vehicles that did not have park. Check out the Frieghtliner FL70 w/ Allison for example.

 

[Leadfoot]

Close enought to topic

I believe it's based on GVW (might even be based on air brakes too, but not 100% sure). I don't know what year the law went into effect either, so there may be some older vehicles without it as well.

 

[83ZZ502_Jimmy]

1) People are not getting the Dmax's power numbers as high as the CTD's, probably mainly from the lack of aftermarket help at the moment. IIRC of course.

2)The allison has not yet had extremely high numbers put towards it and are not aware of what hardparts could be a weak link. IIRC of course.

I'm being nice, so dont take this the wrong way.

The IIRC part of your post is true, you dont remember correctly, its ok.

Here's a dyno sheet

795Hp 1502Tq
Thats at the rear wheels. So factor a very conservative 15% for drivetrain losses and thats 914HP and 1700tq at the flywheel.

I think the dmax has proven it can run the big numbers. This and many runs like it, have been run on the STOCK turbo and injectors.

My .02,
John

 

[Leadfoot]

Daaaaaaaaammmmmmnnnnnnn!

 

[rjfguitar]

Im sure that is with drugs. I am not suprised, I have heard "rumors" of such power but I highly doubt that much power is usefull while still retaining the stock turbo. EGT's must get insane quickly. I am not at all going to say the dmax isn't capable of hitting the high numbers the cummins has and is making it is just that they can't yet from the lack of aftermarket support.

BTW, the ISB has stopped 800HP and 1600ft lbs....at the rear wheels.

 

[Shaggy]

...I am not at all going to say the dmax isn't capable of hitting the high numbers the cummins has and is making it is just that they can't yet from the lack of aftermarket support...

So a dyno printout isn't proof enough for you? Seems apparant that the D-Max IS capable and HAS made it, therefore there MUST be support in the aftermarket for it. Maybe not in a bolt-on kit, but is there a bolt-on kit to make 1500+ lb-ft of torque with a Cummins?

 

[rjfguitar]

So a dyno printout isn't proof enough for you? Seems apparant that the D-Max IS capable and HAS made it, therefore there MUST be support in the aftermarket for it. ?

The printout is impressive...but still short of what guys are getting out of ISB's. The 700's and 1500's are old news for cummins owners on the power frontier.

Maybe not in a bolt-on kit, but is there a bolt-on kit to make 1500+ lb-ft of torque with a Cummins

Yes there is. Diesel dynamics makes a kit that includes a new turbo(s), injectors, injection pump, programming (if it's a 24v), camshaft, fuel pump and larger lines, exhaust manifold, and intake systems capable of producing at least what that guy made with the dmax on the sheet above.

Like I said, I don't think the dmax is not capable of matching the cummins numbers, I'm sure it is but won't get it until you see them with twins, new cam, etc.

 

[daleearnhardt01]

Yes there is. Diesel dynamics makes a kit that includes a new turbo(s), injectors, injection pump, programming (if it's a 24v), camshaft, fuel pump and larger lines, exhaust manifold, and intake systems capable of producing at least what that guy made with the dmax on the sheet above.

Honestly you call that a bolt on kit?

How is there not any aftermarket support for the Duramax? The Dmax has been out for several years now so that statement is not valid at all. There are plenty of aftermarket performance accessories available for it. Is your Cummins bombed at all or are you just taking all this information from another site?

 

[jarheadk5]

Im sure that is with drugs. I am not suprised, I have heard "rumors" of such power but I highly doubt that much power is usefull while still retaining the stock turbo. EGT's must get insane quickly.

My Dad's '02 DMax/Alli was putting down similar numbers at the wheels before he totaled it in Quebec last year. No drugs, stock turbo, just intake, exhaust, fuel delivery, and lots of programming work. I don't know the specifics, but I did ask him if that was with propane, and he said he didn't want (or have room for) propane on the truck.

And as far as that much power being "useful"...
Define "useful". We're talking about light/medium duty engines in light trucks, after all. When it comes down to it, you're either gonna pull or race a diesel pickup truck with that kind of power. Your beloved Cummins B motor with all the mods necessary to crank out 1700+ TQ ain't gonna last forever if you run that hard all the time; of course neither will a DMax or PSD. The drivetrains won't handle that much power forever, either, so long-distance heavy towing is pretty much a no-go at that kind of pwer level. The NV5600 is still a single-countershaft tranny; I don't know what NVG's TQ rating is on it, but I will bet my next paycheck that it's significantly less that 1500ft/lbs. I work on trannies rated for more (and less) for a living, and they are MASSIVE (you should already know this, given your profession). But they're designed and built to take anywhere from 1100 to over 1800ft/lbs all day, every day, for years. The empty front case alone weighs nearly 200lbs; a late-style 18-speed Fuller Roadranger rated for 1850ft/lbs input TQ tips the scales at close to 800lbs (RTO 18918).

 

[83ZZ502_Jimmy]

The EGT's got to 1300 by the end of the run. Pre-Turbo. Oh, and this run was made at 5300 feet above sea level. I thinks that it woulda hit 800 quite easily.

Twins, cam, injection pumps, injectors. Not really a bolt on in my book. This power again was made on stock injects, stock turbo, and STOCK aluminum heads, stock bottom end, stock head studs, etc.. No O-ringing needed. Just programming and drugs. Even a freakin stock airbox.

So what if he was using drugs. Without twins the DMax has an unfair fight. The N2O is to help make up for the lack of a second turbo.

We all know the cummins can have massive #'s. But everything I read is that its not a bolt on affair like you think.

Believe what you will, I dont much care.

My 02.

John

 

[rjfguitar]

There are no twins or cam modifications out there that are readily available as a kit that aren't home grown for the dmax as far as I know.

I will say it for the last time, I don't doubt the dmax will be able to match the cummins power numbers, I do however, doubt that it will be able to match the cummins without twins and a cam. I am not a fan of pumping tons of drugs trying to "make up for" not having enough air from a pair of twins. The dmax is a very capable engine, it just needs MORE hardparts from the aftermarket.

Everyone keeps bringing up the aluminum heads and defending them, I find this humorous, I never mentioned a thing about them. THey are obviously not a weak link or guys would be blowing head gaskets and cracking heads at the races, but they aren't so it's a non issue.

 

[rjfguitar]

My Dad's '02 DMax/Alli was putting down similar numbers at the wheels before he totaled it in Quebec last year. No drugs, stock turbo, just intake, exhaust, fuel delivery, and lots of programming work. I don't know the specifics, but I did ask him if that was with propane, and he said he didn't want (or have room for) propane on the truck.

And as far as that much power being "useful"...
Define "useful". We're talking about light/medium duty engines in light trucks, after all. When it comes down to it, you're either gonna pull or race a diesel pickup truck with that kind of power. Your beloved Cummins B motor with all the mods necessary to crank out 1700+ TQ ain't gonna last forever if you run that hard all the time; of course neither will a DMax or PSD. The drivetrains won't handle that much power forever, either, so long-distance heavy towing is pretty much a no-go at that kind of pwer level. The NV5600 is still a single-countershaft tranny; I don't know what NVG's TQ rating is on it, but I will bet my next paycheck that it's significantly less that 1500ft/lbs. I work on trannies rated for more (and less) for a living, and they are MASSIVE (you should already know this, given your profession). But they're designed and built to take anywhere from 1100 to over 1800ft/lbs all day, every day, for years. The empty front case alone weighs nearly 200lbs; a late-style 18-speed Fuller Roadranger rated for 1850ft/lbs input TQ tips the scales at close to 800lbs (RTO 18918).

You are right that usually using that much power is not needed for a long period of time. Usually just for bursts but I doubt quickly heating and cooling the exhaust that fast is a good thing. THey have had problems with the cummins manifold cracking from that kind of temperature change which is why ATS makes a custom manifold(perfect example of how much more stuff is available for the ISB vs. the dmax). With twins they are able to somewhat control EGT's.

I don't know what kind of fueling and timing can be delivered to the dmax while under a heavy load and the stock turbo, someone else will have to chime in on that one. I know that ISB's like mine with a stock turbo, comp box, and injectors will have a problem with EGT's under a heavy load on a long grade. It takes more air to keep it cool from a larger turbo. FOr most of us that is where it counts, being able to maintain those nice power numbers and be able to acutally use them pulling a hill, not in a 1/4 mile (i'm talking say 500/1000 numbers).

As far as yhe trannies you are right, I don't know how much the NV5600 can take for an extended period. It would probably wear something out quickly and break. One thing to remember about the Rockwell and Eaton trannies in the semis is they are able to handle that torque rating with 80,000 lbs gross on board and for 1 million miles(hopefully). But still you are probably right, the NV5600 probably couldn't take those power numbers for very many miles with a gross load of say 16,000lbs.

 

[rjfguitar]

Twins, cam, injection pumps, injectors. Not really a bolt on in my book. This power again was made on stock injects, stock turbo, and STOCK aluminum heads, stock bottom end, stock head studs, etc.. No O-ringing needed. Just programming and drugs. Even a freakin stock airbox.

So what if he was using drugs. Without twins the DMax has an unfair fight. The N2O is to help make up for the lack of a second turbo.


My 02.

John

Exactly, it is an unfair fight currently from the lack of hardparts available for the dmax. If and when the aftermarket designs and mass produces those parts for the dmax, like the ISB, I'm sure the Dmax will be right there with the cummins, and maybe even beat it. This is basically what I have been saying since this thread started.

We all know the cummins can have massive #'s. But everything I read is that its not a bolt on affair like you think.

Believe what you will, I dont much care.

Define "bolt on". The cam, turbo, and the rest of the motor is bolted together. Popping out a cam and sliding a new one in is basically bolt on IMHO, unbolt the old and bolt in the new. The only thing I can think of at the moment that is not "nuts and bolts" would be that the head has to be o-ringed.

I'm glad you don't much care. If you were getting all upset about an internet disussion with people hundreds and thousands of miles away I would be worried.

 

[rjfguitar]

Honestly you call that a bolt on kit?

How is there not any aftermarket support for the Duramax? The Dmax has been out for several years now so that statement is not valid at all. There are plenty of aftermarket performance accessories available for it. Is your Cummins bombed at all or are you just taking all this information from another site?

Reread this thread and try doing it slower so maybe this time you get it correct.

I never said there is no aftermarket support for the dmax.

When you get your reading down come back and I will be happy to respond to your posts relating to the thread on hand.

Have a very nice day.

 

[jarheadk5]

One thing to remember about the Rockwell and Eaton trannies in the semis is they are able to handle that torque rating with 80,000 lbs gross on board and for 1 million miles(hopefully).

That's what I said...

But they're designed and built to take anywhere from 1100 to over 1800ft/lbs all day, every day, for years.

I don't know what kind of fueling and timing can be delivered to the dmax while under a heavy load and the stock turbo, someone else will have to chime in on that one.

I don't know either; like I said I wasn't able to get specifics from my dad about his previous DMax buildup. I WILL get as much info as I can from him about his new DMax build; he got an '04 to replace the wrecked one and pretty much immediately started bombing it. I know he has had to get the ECM re-flashed at least once due to the variable-nozzle or variable-vane turbo (not sure which description is correct) "burping" and blowing the intercooler hoses off at the clamps, he's running a 4" exhaust from the turbo back with no muffler or cat, he's running some kind of cold air intake setup, and there's some electronic-box voodoo going on. When I find out more, I'll post up.

 

[rjfguitar]

I didn't say the same thing as you, technically. You refered to torque ratings and I refered to weight ratings.

I am very interested in what your pop is running.