Rivets vs. bolts

[Greg72]

If it doesn't bankrupt me first, I'll be using ARP stainless fasteners on everything...

After all the careful work I've done on the truck, the last thing I want to see is a bunch of rusty fasteners on an otherwise pristine truck.

Huge bucks though.


-G

 

[diesel4me]

I've had some bad experiences with stainless bolts--I was replacing a front suspention crosmember in a friends '66 Corvair years ago,his rotted away and he found an NOS one in western MA a corvair supply place ,I agreed to help him install it over a weekend,and he brought a bunch of new stainless steel bolts and nuts from a manufacturing facility he worked at that the maintenence dept. used on food handling equipment..not sure what grade they were,they had 2 lines on the heads--when I went to tighten the first 2 bolts,they snapped off like peanut brittle with a 3/8" ratchet and I wasn't torquing them all that much!--after that,I suggested we go buy some grade 8 steel bolts and use those instead!...I've had other stainless bolts snap easily in other things I used them on..like my plow on my truck,I used a big 1" stainless bolt I got in a bucket of hardware I bought,and it sheared off in a matter of minutes..

Another time I had the bright idea of putting stainless steel studs in my exhaust manifolds,after tiring of having to drill out busted ones every time I replaced exhaust pipes--they were in there about 3 years,when I tried loosening them they went "SNAP" like firecrackers,and no drill bit in my posession would even scratch them,so I had to take off the manifolds anf haul them to an auto machine shop,and have them mill them out with an end mill...(new or used manifolds would have been cheaper! )...after those experiences with stainless,I wont use any except in certain places,like on a boat,or some outdoor fixtures where weather exposure rusts plain bolts too quickly...too expensive and too brittle for structural car and truck uses in my opinion,unless you opt for the aircraft quality stuff...

 

[Greg72]

Most stainless is Grade-2

ARP Stainless is Grade-8



Big difference of course.... I read a lot of horror stories about street rodders using stainless fasteners on suspension parts (Grade-2) and having catastrophic failures. I'm sure that's the sort of internet lore that scares most people away.... it scared me away for years.

When I saw that ARP made a true Grade-8 stainless fastener, I was back on board with the idea again. Like most ARP stuff, it will be stupid expensive but you'll get the quality you are paying for!


-G

 

[Hogback Fabrication]

Size is another consideration.

When I replaced my B52's and ORD shackle flip brackets I thought the included 3/8" hardware was a little loose in the rivot holes. This may be normal or it could have been wear on my frame. Regardless, I redrilled the brackets and the frame to 7/16" for a better fit.

Our shackle flips use 7/16" bolts

 

[thatK30guy]

Most stainless is Grade-2

ARP Stainless is Grade-8



Big difference of course.... I read a lot of horror stories about street rodders using stainless fasteners on suspension parts (Grade-2) and having catastrophic failures. I'm sure that's the sort of internet lore that scares most people away.... it scared me away for years.

When I saw that ARP made a true Grade-8 stainless fastener, I was back on board with the idea again. Like most ARP stuff, it will be stupid expensive but you'll get the quality you are paying for!


-G

This is what I like to hear. And I thought ARP's were grade 8s to begin with.

I remember seeing ARP bolts all over Bigfoot 1 back when we were at the open house in 2010. It had the small bolts all over the chassis but nothing like spring bolts or other places where strength was a factor.

 

[nvrenuf]

Our shackle flips use 7/16" bolts

Ah... I bought it used so no hardware. That explains what I thought was a sloppy fit between the brackets and the 3/8 holes in the frame.

 

[496truck]

As long as you're fastener shopping check out

Boltdepot.com

It's a local place here with decent pricing. They do everything from single units to bulk orders.

My only concern is that the factory rivets had conformed to the holes during install, leaving no room for the 2 metals to shift around and grind the rivet down. At least in theory. So my concern is that over time the bolts would get ground down by the 2 metals shifting around and you would end up with a sloppy frame.

How about bolting first then welding? Surprised no one else brought this up....

 

[Z71paramedic]

I bought a big assortment from river city industrial supply off of ebay a while back. It was something like 1,500 pieces, 1/4"-3/4" all grade 8 in different length bolts and whatnot. It only cost me like $100 and they do free shipping (even to Hawaii) I've used the chit out of those things

 

[rampage]

I knew I remembered someone replacing all the rivets in the frame before. I wonder why he hasn't chirped in yet.

 

[scottishdave]

Our shackle flips use 7/16" bolts

Ah... I bought it used so no hardware. That explains what I thought was a sloppy fit between the brackets and the 3/8 holes in the frame.

Yeah man, The ORD bolts that come with the flip fit nice and snug

The holes on my frame had to be drilled out just a hair to fit the bolts through, and even then i gave it a light tap with the hammer to push them through.

Very tight and solid fit.

 

[imiceman44]

Been through this before and after talking to all th eexperts in metal building, the rivets stayed and i sandblasted the frame as is.
The only parts that ended with bolts were the parts I changed,
Bolts, no matter how you do it, will eventually lose clamping force.
When they do the rivets, they are glowing red, and pounded flat then they shrink when they cool down, and as you said alos take the shape of the holes in both sides. Nothing will hold better than the original rivets.
And as Diesel4me said, under the parts, the frame is still factory clean so no need to split them.
At least I wouldn't.
Now when you are doing a project like Greg72, it's different, he had a reason to remove everything to box the frame the way he did, at that point he has to use bolts.
He better wire wheel the surface though before he does because as Demon44 said, the paint does squish and you lose clamping force.
It happened to me when I put new wheels and tires and went off road the same day, half way thru the day I had 2 lug nuts left holding on the wheel and the wheel was wobbling bad.

As long as you're fastener shopping check out

Boltdepot.com

It's a local place here with decent pricing. They do everything from single units to bulk orders.

My only concern is that the factory rivets had conformed to the holes during install, leaving no room for the 2 metals to shift around and grind the rivet down. At least in theory. So my concern is that over time the bolts would get ground down by the 2 metals shifting around and you would end up with a sloppy frame.

How about bolting first then welding? Surprised no one else brought this up....

 

[Slapperbar]

I've used bolt depot in the past with no problems. I would definitely use them again in the future.

 

[thatK30guy]

Gonna bump this one back up for more conversation...

This whole thing of bolts vs. rivets deal has me racking my brain over all those custom jobs like on street rods, show trucks, pullers, etc., etc., you get the idea.

I've seen numerous show vehicles and drag cars, etc., with brackets removed, blasted and/or painted/powder coated and they're all holding up just fine after being reinstalled again with bolts.

I know some of you will comment that show cars, drag cars, etc., don't see the abuse like our trucks do but not all of our trucks are rock crawlers, hardcore, etc. This guy whom wants me to do all this work on his frame is just building a restomod. No crawling or hardcore stuff. Just mostly street and daily driving duties with an occassional play in the mud, river, sand, hills, etc. He basically wants to restore the truck so its like a brand new vehicle and will last the next duration of its life.

So, back to painting/powder coating and ARP bolts: yay or nay?

 

[bp71k5]

I would not hesitate to replace rivets with bolts on an old frame. Many of the old rivets on mine have stretched and weren't tight anymore so I replaced them. On a newer factory frame, I wouldn't bother only because it's not necessary. The only advantage of bolts that I see are being able to replace the part they are holding together a bit easier than a rivet.

Technically a good ARP bolt probably has much better metallurgy than a rivet. If you can guarantee the bolt stays tight long enough it should be fine. The pinchnuts work great for that.

-Brian

 

[bp71k5]

This thread reminded me that I needed to check my transfer case crossmember bolts. I just went out there and 4 of 8 were visibly loose since I tightened them before blazerbash in sept. So I can confirm split lock washers aren't very good if you use bolts.


-Brian

 

[imiceman44]

The thing about bolts, they work fine on a show vehicle because the owner usually is always checking things, cleaning it, tightening anything lose before they go to a show, they also are not driven much.
As long as your buddy realizes that bolts will need occasionnal maintenance then it's fine.
Rivets might losen up after 35 years of abuse, bolts will not take that long.
Now if I were building a custom vehicle and needed to move hangers or cross members I wouldn't hesitate to put bolts, but I wouldn't go and remove evey rivet and replace with bolts.
ANother thing that could help, I don't know what heat would do to a grade 8 bolt, but the secret with rivets is that they put them hot, and then they shrink for extreme clamping force.
You can do that with bolts, but check first what heat will do to the bolts metalurgy first.

Gonna bump this one back up for more conversation...

This whole thing of bolts vs. rivets deal has me racking my brain over all those custom jobs like on street rods, show trucks, pullers, etc., etc., you get the idea.

I've seen numerous show vehicles and drag cars, etc., with brackets removed, blasted and/or painted/powder coated and they're all holding up just fine after being reinstalled again with bolts.

I know some of you will comment that show cars, drag cars, etc., don't see the abuse like our trucks do but not all of our trucks are rock crawlers, hardcore, etc. This guy whom wants me to do all this work on his frame is just building a restomod. No crawling or hardcore stuff. Just mostly street and daily driving duties with an occassional play in the mud, river, sand, hills, etc. He basically wants to restore the truck so its like a brand new vehicle and will last the next duration of its life.

So, back to painting/powder coating and ARP bolts: yay or nay?

 

[bp71k5]

but the secret with rivets is that they put them hot, and then they shrink for extreme clamping force.

The length does shrink to tighten up the ends, but the round portion that goes through the frame also shrinks a bit so it's not quite as tight in the hole. But I'll admit it's not much.




-Brian

 

[DEMON44]

It exactly daily drivers that will see failure and loosening faster than a rod, or puller, or whatever show truck. It the truck that will get started 10 times a day a drive all over Hells half acre that will vibrate the bolts loose the fastest.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

 

[ryoken]

my opinion....


I think the whole "it'll vibrate loose" crowd is waaay overthinking/worrying about this...

how many parts do you bolt to a frame, or anywhere on a vehicle for that matter, that aren't subjected to the same thing? 92% of this forum will bolt a shackle flip to a frame, and I'm pretty certain ideal hardware isn't used 1/2 the time, and how many times do we here about them getting loose?

if the PROPER hardware is installed correctly, I see absolutely no issue whatsoever.. pinched locknuts being the key...

 

[thatK30guy]

Amen.

And agreed to your comments. Makes the guys who run the shackle flip brackets nervous now when the comments of the bolts vibrating loose, eh? Lets see them all freak out now.