Rust Bucket headaches (Now Fixed)

[campfire]

I ran into a pretty standard rustbelt problem yesterday. Started changing ball joints on my Saturn and found this break in the lower subframe:



(Here is some context)



This is the inboard control arm socket. Then I pealed back that plastic guard (with the sticker) and found that 2 sides of the box beam are also gone.




Added some light, easier to see things.






The box beam is sound (relatively) on either side of this cancerous tumor, so my first thought is to weld or bolt in some basic angle iron braces to bridge the gap and restore the box-beam shape. And then some thick flatstock to bridge the break in the socket.

The other 2 sides are still there, but I've gotten nervous and grounded the car for now (I'm more concerned with the crack in the socket, that is bound to propagate over time if not corrected).

Anybody have some better ideas? Or general-purpose magic answers for cars that join weight-loss clubs as they age?

 

[skunked]

replace the subframe?

 

[diesel4me]

My friend has both welded up rotted subframes and replaced the whole "cradle" with a good used salvage yard unit...fairly common issues with Saturn's around here...

 

[tRustyK5]

I'm not a rust belter, but in my world that just became a parts car. Body rust is one thing, structure, suspension, steering is a whole 'nother thing. I look at the potential liability issues if there is a wreck...which makes that a parts car in my book.

 

[campfire]

I'm not a rust belter, but in my world that just became a parts car. Body rust is one thing, structure, suspension, steering is a whole 'nother thing. I look at the potential liability issues if there is a wreck...which makes that a parts car in my book.

I guess (growing up in the rust belt) I'm used to cars that are on the weight-loss diet. This isn't nearly the worst car that I've seen driving around the area.

I'd love to have rust free cars, but they're quite rare here, even among newer models. This being a 1996 model, I'd call it rusty, but not abnormally so.

But this does explain my penchant for framed vehicles instead of unibodies. It takes longer to rust through a good frame rail.

 

[campfire]

My friend has both welded up rotted subframes and replaced the whole "cradle" with a good used salvage yard unit...fairly common issues with Saturn's around here...

Not sure how easy it is to find one that's in decent shape. I'd bet most of them are rusted out like mine is.

Since most of mine is still present, I'm thinking along the lines of reinforcing the 2 weak spots rather than trying to splice in an entire new subframe.

I have a local bodyshop friend who spends a whole lot of his working hours fixing problems like this one. I'll hafta get his input before I start chopping.

 

[tRustyK5]

I guess (growing up in the rust belt) I'm used to cars that are on the weight-loss diet. This isn't nearly the worst car that I've seen driving around the area.

I'd love to have rust free cars, but they're quite rare here, even among newer models. This being a 1996 model, I'd call it rusty, but not abnormally so.

But this does explain my penchant for framed vehicles instead of unibodies. It takes longer to rust through a good frame rail.

Sounds like you only wanted opinions that matched yours?

 

[yellowK20]

Tannerite, about 20-30lbs of it and .308 will take care of it and provide needed entertainment.

 

[campfire]

Sounds like you only wanted opinions that matched yours?

I was and am asking for technical help on the challenges of reinforcing the problem area. While I do appreciate your input, I'm still looking at the feasibility of fixing it before I give up all hope. Scrapping may be in the cards this time, but I at least want to attempt a rescue effort. I've seen too many basket cases leave the body shop all spiffy to think this one is beyond repair.

Folks that think I'm crazy are welcome to tell me so. I'll eventually get the message.

 

[JoshHefnerX]

I don't have anything to add except that however you do fix it DO NOT compromise the strength.

Want to see how this is done.

 

[diesel4me]

Some states with yearly inspections wont allow any "structural repairs"..at least for rust issues--accidents are another story..

MA isn't one of them,that I know of anyway,if it is,its unlikely the inspector would look close enough to see any repairs,and if they are "hidden" halfway decent they wont(undercoating hides a lot of sins!)--many vehicles rejected for inspection in NH end up down here after a quick sale at a bargain price with welded frames and unibodies..some are merely coated with bondo and undercoated....

While I tend to agree with Rene,if every vehicle with rust issues wasn't "saved" here,there would be dam few older ones around !..very few over 10 years old have zero rust issues,my own included..

--I have seen vehicles here with zero body rot, with swiss cheese for frame rails,and ones with perfect frames ,still have factory paint on them,with bodies so rotted they can come off the frame without unbolting anything--its weird how that happens..

As long as you do a good job welding it and have sufficient "good" metal to weld it to,I don't see why it cant be patched up and get a few more years out of the car..why it's ok to rebuild a crashed car in the same manner,but not one with a rusted spot is unclear to me..(I've seen quite a few very shoddy "rebuilds" by supposedly "good" body shops around here.)..

I've seen some real crude backyard hack jobs on some vehicles,like Toyota pickups with box frames badly rotted--the "repair" consisted of a length of re-bar and the box section filled with cement!...other cars & Jeeps seen at my friends shop up on the lift had brittle bed frame angle iron stick welded crudely everywhere--how they managed to not break in two on the first good pothole is a mystery to me...

Here's a good example of what not to do !..

 

[diesel4me]

Some states with yearly inspections wont allow any "structural repairs"..at least for rust issues--accidents are another story..

MA isn't one of them,that I know of anyway,if it is,its unlikely the inspector would look close enough to see any repairs,and if they are "hidden" halfway decent they wont(undercoating hides a lot of sins!)--many vehicles rejected for inspection in NH end up down here after a quick sale at a bargain price with welded frames and unibodies..some are merely coated with bondo and undercoated....

While I tend to agree with Rene,if every vehicle with rust issues wasn't "saved" here,there would be dam few older ones around !..very few over 10 years old have zero rust issues,my own included..

--I have seen vehicles here with zero body rot, with swiss cheese for frame rails,and ones with perfect frames ,still have factory paint on them,with bodies so rotted they can come off the frame without unbolting anything--its weird how that happens..

As long as you do a good job welding it and have sufficient "good" metal to weld it to,I don't see why it cant be patched up and get a few more years out of the car..why it's ok to rebuild a crashed car in the same manner,but not one with a rusted spot is unclear to me..(I've seen quite a few very shoddy "rebuilds" by supposedly "good" body shops around here.)..

I've seen some real crude backyard hack jobs on some vehicles,like Toyota pickups with box frames badly rotted--the "repair" consisted of a length of re-bar and the box section filled with cement!...other cars & Jeeps seen at my friends shop up on the lift had brittle bed frame angle iron stick welded crudely everywhere--how they managed to not break in two on the first good pothole is a mystery to me...

Here's a good example of what not to do !..
View attachment 204936

 

[ktmoutfront]

Is this the car for your trip?

 

[Blue85]

But if the pictures are of the engine cradle, it will be WAY faster to swap the cradle than the rework this one. Realistically, won't you have to pull the cradle to do a proper repair anyway? You can rent, buy or build a top-side engine support that can hold up the whole engine/tranny while you pull the cradle out from the bottom. A cherry picker might be fine, too. In W-body world, guys swap the steel cradles for later model aluminum ones and it only takes a few hours. A used cradle can be cheap - you just have to find a good one.

If your suspension is bolted to rails of the unibody, this all gets sketchier. If the only option is to weld to whatever is there, then you probably can't form a 100% plan until the rot is cut out to identify where the good metal really begins. You may need a good continuously variable current welder to work on the unibody as it is really just folded sheet metal.

 

[skunked]

For some reason I thought the subframe was a bolt in piece like most other fwd cars. That's unfortunate and I would likely junk the car if that's the case.

 

[campfire]

Is this the car for your trip?

Well, it was the car for our trip, and that's why I was getting the new ball joints (and some other things) installed. I have grounded it since discovering this issue, we'll take the backup car. Not taking that kind of risk on a long-haul high-speed trip.

 

[campfire]

But if the pictures are of the engine cradle, it will be WAY faster to swap the cradle than the rework this one. Realistically, won't you have to pull the cradle to do a proper repair anyway? You can rent, buy or build a top-side engine support that can hold up the whole engine/tranny while you pull the cradle out from the bottom. A cherry picker might be fine, too. In W-body world, guys swap the steel cradles for later model aluminum ones and it only takes a few hours. A used cradle can be cheap - you just have to find a good one.

If your suspension is bolted to rails of the unibody, this all gets sketchier. If the only option is to weld to whatever is there, then you probably can't form a 100% plan until the rot is cut out to identify where the good metal really begins. You may need a good continuously variable current welder to work on the unibody as it is really just folded sheet metal.

It does appear to be all welded together (). And, no, I won't have a plan until I do more digging. The metal looks alright on either side, but I'm still not comfortable with it. I do have a basic constant-voltage MIG welder, but I'm not awesome at welding, particularly with thinner material. The cracked portion is the socket for the control arm. The torsion bar and upper strut mounts are on the other (upper) section of subframe, rust does not appear to have struck there yet.

Scrapping the car is definitely still on the table, but I'm not making decisions until I get a closer look at it. Which won't be until we get back from our road trip. Way too short a timeframe at this point (ball joints and the resultant alignment were already pushing it).

 

[wetoolowdingbangow]

Thats pretty eye opening. We have old military batteries sitting on the coast that have less rust.

I say scrap it. Obviously not the most fun option but better than ending up in a semi trucks lane.

 

[Blue85]

 

[campfire]

Thats pretty eye opening. We have old military batteries sitting on the coast that have less rust.

I say scrap it. Obviously not the most fun option but better than ending up in a semi trucks lane.

Glad I could open your eyes into what we call normal.

You'd be amazed how many 10 and 15 year old cars have rusted through their fenders already around here. It's nuts, and that's why my K10 spends the majority of the year parked. I'll wind up not having a K10 in a few years if I put it through the salt bath. Which is why I have the cheap, disposable car. To be cheap and disposable.

Back to the I-hate-unibodys thought, I should send some pictures of the pan on my M1009. Lots and lots of metal missing, makes this look really nice. But that's not important on a framed rig. They are soooooo much more resilient to rust damage.

Yes, I know I'm stating the obvious. But frames make me feel warm and fuzzy inside when things like this come up.