CK5
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SK Wrenches..made WHERE?

Better made american.....

better engineered German....

And all japanese electronics are superior...

And everything made in china is cheap and inferior.

Stereotypes... gotta love em.
 
I think all this gloom and doom is myopic and America will always be at the top of the heap.

That's just not going to be the case. That's not my opinion, that is based on any and all reading I've ever done on the topic. A frightening shift in World power though, makes me nervous.

Those that think other nations have a better standard of living haven't traveled much. There are a handful of European nations that do quite well, but they are certainly in the minority.

I suppose this might be a subjective topic, but I think objectively speaking, when comparing 'western' countries, again looking at employment rates, crime and incarceration statistics, poverty by not only per capita but by age (this is especially indicatived of a nation's QOL), cost and accessibility of education and health care, and incomes after taxes, there is little to refute. North Americans are at the bottom of the list.


And, if someone thinks socialized medicine and subsidized education would work in the U.S., I want some of that person is smoking.

Why do you think it wouldn't work? I'm genuinely interested in your opinion so if you don't respond in the post drop me a PM. [/quote]


Any reasonable study of socialist and communist societies clearly reveals that they are doomed to failure.

While of course I 'get it' this very common attitude usually makes me chuckle. China is doing pretty well. Cuba is doing pretty well. Again, I get what you say but still...

Look at the ills of the world around us, is Capitalism REALLY working? Give me a break, there is NO WAY we can continue this rate of consumption for the sake of consumption.
 
Oh I just wanted to say, I'm impressed that we can have a debate like this, with very different opinions, and personal beliefs, and still keep it healthy and constructive. Pretty tough to do when it's money, religion or politics! :D
 
We all want to make money. You are a ****ing liar if you say you would give up the chance to make millions, were it to mean you had to ship stuff out of country. Now if it were pennies we were talking about, sure any decent person wouldn't do it, but millions upon millions is another story.

Yeah, we all want to make money. That's a no brainer. How you do it is another story. Making a product in a country that will grow it's military into the next superpower is less than ideal. I think healthy trade is good to a point with other countries but China has proven itself to be a detrimental choice. Seriously, would you like to see China as the next world superpower.

I have a daughter and I want her to have a good life so I think about the future. No, I would not sell my soul to make a buck. What I would do is research all the options and make the ethical choice. There are ways to make an honest buck. That may be a hard concept for you to grasp judging by your post but I respect your opinion.
 
free enterprise and choice have a lot to do with the american way. I for one do not consider ourselves at the "bottom" of the heap of top countries. America is huge, it isnt like europe with small countries.

Europe also has some rediculous amounts of tax. Take the British for example. Bad teeth stereotypes have a grain of truth. They will decide what is best for you based upon their return on investment on you. aka, if your 50, forget the cavity, we pull your teeth. While we're at it, lets pull all the questionable ones. Once you have too many pulled, the'll pull the rest, and give you dentures. Which , btw, is a wait list. My uncle told me he had to wait 8 months to get one.

Want your large truck? WE'll tax the poop off ya.

Want a steak? Try 60 USD.

Want a house? With what income level?

I like the american way. I hate morons though (like NYC drivers).

Americans killed the american way. If the unions strike and hurt GM...
GM is only going to pass the loss onto its customers. GM workers want more money, but the company isnt making as much- the solution isnt to screw the employer, but rather to help the employer make more money.

GM workers are really proud of all of their vehicles. The question in my mind was always, "How the F*** did you design that crap."
 
There is nothing wrong with making money. Capitalism is sensible in an organized society. As soon as we stopped migrating with the game, and began farming we made that 'decision'. One man cannot farm the food, dig the ore for the tools, smelt the ore for the tools, bake the bread and make the candlesticks! The butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker! Thus trade and money.

However, there comes a point when you can have too much money. Just try and justify people in your own country dying of malnutrition or disease when some 'expletive here' is walking around with a $50 000 watch on his wrist.

My favorite is working class people commuting, working 9-5, gas and wear and tear on their cars, time away from home and family, two weeks off in the summer, taxes blah blah blah. Yet they buy People magazine or pay for cable where they watch MY CRIB. Yeah let's make these ridiculously wealthy idiots, more money so we can see how they spend their wealth on $30 000 dog booties, and please please show us your garage that's bigger than my house so I can look at all your $500 000 cars. How screwed up are we as a culture?

Money doesn't grow on trees (trust me I've looked everywhere). There is a finite amount of financial wealth. When one guy has a huge bundle it's because someone or many have little. And when a bunch of people have little guess what happens and who suffers? Wondering where the middle class is going?
 
For CUCV2, I'm hoping the comment about learning as you mature was sent out as a broad comment, and not directed specifically at me. As a child of the 50's, I suspect I am older than you, or at least in a similar age bracket. Most of my maturing has already taken place, although the learning never stops until the permanent dirt nap arrives. As for capitalism, there is a bit of a conflict with your idea that having a gap between rich and poor goes against capitalism. In fact, the closing of the gap between rich and poor is the prime goal of socialism and communism. Socialism is the collective ownership and distribution of goods, controlled by the "state", and a disdain for private property. Communism is the complete elimination of private property by redistributing wealth all under the auspices of a single authoritarian one party government.

Both socialism and communism seek to eliminate the differences between rich and poor. But, you then go on to speak of making choices, neither of which are possible in a socialistic or communistic society. I agree that supporting the home team is a good theory. In fact, I try to shop in my home town as much as possible in order to keep my tax dollars in my local government. This way those tax dollars go towards parks, roads, etc. that I benefit from. However, I don't shop locally when I can get the same goods cheaper elsewhere. Spending hard earned money on something more expensive, just to support the home team, is foolish. And, it is a form of welfare for those companies that cannot seem to compete. By paying a higher price for something made in America, that you may be able to buy from a foreign source with the same quality, you take away the incentive for that American company to be competitive. Why strive to make a good product at at a competitive price when some fool will pay more just to see a Made in U.S.A. sticker on the item.

Now, if the quality is much better, then I expect to pay more. I think that is fair. And, I would prefer to buy something made in the U.S., given the choice. However, there is a reason that BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari, Porsche, and other foreign cars, cost so much but yet sell quite well in America. The quality exceeds American made cars. Once again, capitalism in action. As for global economy being a reality, here is a quote from Wikipedia:

"The rise of technology has allowed our environment to be characterized as a global one. “The global economy" gave business the ability to market products and services all over the globe. It has also allowed them to develop partnerships and alliances throughout the world, which has become essential for success in today’s business.”Prior to Globalization, the United States dominated the global economy. In recent years, however, the U.S. share of the global economy has shrunk to approximately 25%. This trend is expected to continue as the economies of many newly industrialized countries continue to grow at a faster rate."

There are many more sources I could quote from, but it isn't my job to do someone else's homework. A simple Google search on globalization and global economy will provide a plethora of articles for consumption. If you do not believe that the U.S. has to recognize the significant changes taking place in the world of business, there is nothing I can quote or post to change your mind. Isolationism, while appealing to my patriotism and my disdain for some other countries (France to name one), is a dead end road.

For Fireplug, a quick search on standards of living will show you several websites and studies that rank the U.S. quite highly by comparison to other world nations. mapsoftheworld.com ranks the top then standards of living by country as Norway, Sweden, Canada, Belgium, Australia, U.S., Iceland, Netherlands, Japan, Finland. No China or Cuba in that list. A stop into mercer.com will enlighten you on world city rankings for health and sanitation. You will find China and Cuba rank very low in this regard, while the U.S. and Europe are quite high.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia:

"The standard of living in the United States is one of the top 15 in the world by the standard economist measure of standard of living. Per capita income is high but also less evenly distributed than in most other developed countries; as a result, the United States fares particularly well in measures of average material well being that do not place weight on equality aspects.
On comprehensive measures such as the UN Human Development Index the United States is always in the top ten, currently ranking number eight. Scandinavian countries, Ireland, Belgium, Canada, Australia, and (until recently) Japan; Canada and Norway have alternately held the top spot for some time. On the Human Poverty Index the United States ranked 16th, one rank below the United Kingdom and one rank above Ireland. On the Economist's quality-of-life index the United States ranked 13, in between Finland and Canada, scoring 7.6 out of a possible 10. The highest given score of 8.3 was applied to Ireland. This particular index takes into account a variety of socio-economic variables ranging from GDP per capita and life expectancy to political stability and unemployment.

The homeownership rate is relatively high compared to other post-industrial nations. In 2005, 69% of Americans resided in their own homes, roughly the same percentage as in the United Kingdom, Belgium, Israel and Canada.Residents of the United States also enjoy a high access to consumer goods. Americans enjoy more radios per capita than any other nation and more televisions and personal computers per capita than any other large nation."

Wikipedia goes on to say that the gap between rich and poor is larger in the U.S., and growing. However, since we are the most free nation, and the most capitalistic, this only makes sense. We are truly the land of opportunity, and the land of failure. It is one of the only places in the world where the playing field can be fairly level, and everyone can rise to the top, or reside in the losers column depending on their personal choices. I disagree completely that the world wallet is only so big and so the total wealth can only be shuffled around in different quantities. The ability to make money, and thereby improve one's lifestyle, is only limited by how hard a person wants to work. I also think we consume as much as we can afford. Certainly there are many who do not exercise enough control in their spending, and go beyond their means, but that isn't some U.S. phenomenon. That is just human nature.

I've been fortunate to live in other countries, and have also traveled quite a bit. Until you have the ability to actually see socialism, communism, or other oppressive societies in action, you cannot realize how lucky we are in America, and how much freedom and opportunity we actually have. I also have the pleasure of working with co-workers from mainland China, Lebanon, India, Tunisia, and other countries. These folks still have family abroad, and regularly travel back to visit. Their understanding of the U.S. vs. other countries is up close and personal. They would laugh heartily to hear any American sing the praises of China, or any other country other than ours. Cheer up boys and girls, life in the U.S. isn't perfect, but it is the best thing going by far.

Oh, and again, on topic slightly, don't use standard Craftsman sockets with an impact wrench more than a few times. They round out.
 
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Without dragging this out terribly.

Wikipedia is to facts what Harbor Freight is to tools.

I'm not questioning the stats, at least you supplied some facts to back up your opinion, but I've more respect for your opinion than I do Wikipedia :D

Three considerations;

Is it ok? No, better yet. Does it make sense that the US (or really any western country) should even HAVE a poverty index rating?

Are we wealthy if industry is strong yet our soil is degraded, our water polluted and drying out, the nutritional value of our food lower than ever in history and we are all dying of cancer?

If I can buy a car that lasts 20 years does that hurt the economy or if I only work 4 days a week but an unemployed guy gets to work a full week am I ahead in the long run?

I'm not going to change any minds here.

But there is a problem, and we need start evolving and address basic human needs before addressing our disgusting glutenous consumption.

We all play a part certainly, but it's the ULTRA RICH that are responsible, and benefiting at our sacrifice and we are nothing but the purveyors of **** to those people.

I'll quietly drop out of this discussion now as my soap box is getting a little wobbly :D

http://www.wider.unu.edu/research/2...2-2006/wider-wdhw-press-release-5-12-2006.pdf
 
We all have different opinions based upon our backgrounds. As for Wikipedia, it isn't the end all and be all, but they do back up their entries with references that can be traced down. There are obviously many more sources of info than Wikipedia to draw from. Certainly starting with a view point, and then seeking "facts" to back it up can still result in conflicting opinions. There are "experts" to be had for every view point.

As for the degrading of our environment, I would submit that this is actually a myth. We have more laws, more oversight, and more technology addressing the environment than at any time in our history, at least in America. I do have to laugh when I see tree huggers demanding that we go back to the old ways of living. I guess they fail to realize that if everyone burned wood to stay warm, built their homes from wood and stone, and rode horses, our environment would be actually worse off. This doesn't mean we don't need to watch our factories like a hawk though.
 
You can read the newspaper and listen to the news and discover on a daily basis why trade with China is bad and Made in USA is good. Tonight I saw a report on how Americans are looking for Made in the USA toys for their kids because toys made in China contain lead and other toxins. With made in USA, you know that domestic companies are held to higher standards.

That said, I think we can all agree to disagree. It was a good debate but I'd like to come to this site and talk about truck related topics. The easiest way to start a conflict is to talk about politics. I think this thread shows that.
 
Yeah, the mods were pretty tolerant with this one. The right turn into off topic land probably should have been moved to the Lounge. That said, finding true consensus is a pipe dream. So, we learn to live and let live like you said.
 
Yeah, the mods were pretty tolerant with this one. The right turn into off topic land probably should have been moved to the Lounge.

I was kinda wondering when someone might speak up. However I think it's legit. Where a tool is made, or purchased, and why is completely fair game for the garage. The fact that the 'why' is politically, socially, or environmentally influenced is an unlikely but relevant by product of that discussion.
 
Anybody ever use the 15% online coupons from harbor freight?
 
Never used the coupons. I've rarely purchased anything from Harbor Freight unless I went to the store and checked it out first. Most of it is crap. I did buy a monster socket set from the store. The quality is very poor, but since I only use it on rare occasions, it has lasted so far. And yes, it was made in the central kingdom...
 
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