square tube roll bar/cage????

[rdn2blazer]

You are so experienced I will not argue with you.
You know your stuff especially since ANY racing industry again apears as your reference.
I work in construction as an inspector, and I have yet to see any equipement with a round tube roll bar, and these equipments do roll some roll down a really long hill and they are heavier than any vehicle you will be taking off road.
I can't stand it when people start making them selves experts and trying to make everyone that sees things different as idiots all that based on unrelated sources (i.e. racing)
And you know that regulations for the construction field are tighter than racing because if things go wrong insurances have to pay, and no one likes to pay for a death or worse, injuries that keep you in hospitals.
Plus workers comp...

I can't tell if you being a smart ass or not. So no worries I'm not trying to argue with you or anybody, just giving my openion like everyone else is doing. I'm no expert, but I have awesome common sence, atleast IMHO, and yes, a little experience you could say. Maybe not in offroad cage building but materials and machining atleast. And yes, I do think my cage build speaks for itself. There is not one single complaint on the build design or construction of my cage build, from design down the materials on any site I have posted on.

I was not trying to make ANYONE sound like an idiot. The construction equipment your talking about is built soooo stout it does not matter if it square, round or triangle, pink, purple, or blue. Construction equipment is insanely heavy cause weight does not matter when it comes to that. The ONLY refference I used for racing is it's a good idea to build to SOME KIND of standard, and NO form of racing used square tube. That is all I said regarding anything racing. I also said a square tube cage is way better then no cage at all. I just think it will look...well crappy to me. And that my openion too, you know what they say about openions.......I really don't care what he or anybody else builds.

 

[cybrfire]

I don't know how many times I've seen a truck that is built for crawling with a cage that normally only goes 2 mph go ripping across a sand dune, or down a smooth dirt road at 40, 50, 60+ mph. Now you have a fast moving vehicle that weighs around 6000 lbs.

Don't forget the human factor. Once you get a cage you'll try things that maybe didn't look so good before.

 

[rdn2blazer]

I don't know how many times I've seen a truck that is built for crawling with a cage that normally only goes 2 mph go ripping across a sand dune, or down a smooth dirt road at 40, 50, 60+ mph. Now you have a fast moving vehicle that weighs around 6000 lbs.

Don't forget the human factor. Once you get a cage you'll try things that maybe didn't look so good before.

100000% agree.

 

[knottyrich]

(i'm not being sarcastis, if that was meant for me) i didn't mean to start off some kind of super heated debate ..round tube versus square tube. i was just thinking it might be a tad' easier project for a beginner to under take, in the line of instead of a bunch of bends it will be more straight forward. cut, knotch, weld. thanks for all the input though, ya'll have given me a lot to think about.
if i do build it and its not quite up to pare, now not only do i have a rolled truck but i also a crap load of thick heavy steel flying all over the place. now that's a scary thought!
i guess i got some more planning to do.
i still like the idea for the doors and tailgate.

have a great sunday morning!
i'm gonna be installing kit, with the awesome advice i got off here....i think i can do it!!!
later dudes

 

[rdn2blazer]

(i'm not being sarcastis, if that was meant for me) i didn't mean to start off some kind of super heated debate ..round tube versus square tube. i was just thinking it might be a tad' easier project for a beginner to under take, in the line of instead of a bunch of bends it will be more straight forward. cut, knotch, weld. thanks for all the input though, ya'll have given me a lot to think about.
if i do build it and its not quite up to pare, now not only do i have a rolled truck but i also a crap load of thick heavy steel flying all over the place. now that's a scary thought!
i guess i got some more planning to do.
i still like the idea for the doors and tailgate.

have a great sunday morning!
i'm gonna be installing kit, with the awesome advice i got off here....i think i can do it!!!
later dudes

No worries dude, this always happens, it's all friendly fodder really. It's all good. I always like the thinking outside the box ideas, just keep safety first and formost in you mind. Too many people put that as an after thought. You can do a straight tube cage with little or no bends. There is a good build on just this subject on pirate4x4. The guy did an awesome job on his cage. He did use round tube though. Nothing at all as far as a cage goes is of course the most dangerous situation there is. Having a square tube cage will still be very strong and make for a much safer condition for damn sure.


It is just a fact that round tube is stronger though. The entire circumference of the tube is the same. Its round so there is no weak spots. A piece of flat metal bends easily across the flat section. But try to bend it on its side and its much stronger. Square tube that gets bent only has two of the four sides in the stronger plane to support the tube. The top and bottom of the tube is in the flat plane and in not giving much resistance to the force of the bend. Having square tube in the diamond plane is not much better. The tube just wants to colapse. It wants to spread the width of the tube wider, and flatten out top to bottom. It's simply the shape of the tube structure thats weak.

Where as round tune has equal strength in any direction load is applied period. It's the simple physics of structure really.

 

[ryoken]

yeah, just don't bring up toolboxes....... unless you wanna see calipers and magnets flying!

sorry OP, inside forum joke....

 

[COCHEV]

i have a question, and maybe its a dumb one, but i'm ok with that...

when you bend round tubing, doesn't it stretch the outside of the radius of that tubing? and if so, doesn't that weakin it to some degree?

does a miter with a gusset really weigh that much more?

i would think side or angular impacts would be the hardest on any cage. i would think that regardless of what material was used, cross bracing and gusseting would be necessary.

i've thought of the square tube design too- lack of a bender and plus i'm a carpenter and think miters are cool. LOL!

 

[blazinzuk]

It does stretch it a little bit, anytime you bend something its going to stretch or shrink the material somewhat. But in a mandrel bender it is kept to a minimum.

Consider the fact that round is stronger from any angle, so you should probably bump up the wall thickness, at the least on the main bars. So your cage will be heavier.

When I bend a cage I try to keep the main hoop as one peice, no welds in them, it of course gets front to back support and will not function as well or at all without that support but there are no welds to fail on the main hoop. You more than likely will have 6 welds on the main hoop. Every weld is a potential failure point.

Not a problem if you are a good welder but you really are going to need to gusset every bend on the square, not with just a gusset on the inside of the bend but a diamond shaped peice on all 4 sides of the square.

That is what I think is needed, some may think its overkill but if there is anyplace for overkill that is it

 

[rdn2blazer]

It does stretch it a little bit, anytime you bend something its going to stretch or shrink the material somewhat. But in a mandrel bender it is kept to a minimum.

Consider the fact that round is stronger from any angle, so you should probably bump up the wall thickness, at the least on the main bars. So your cage will be heavier.

When I bend a cage I try to keep the main hoop as one peice, no welds in them, it of course gets front to back support and will not function as well or at all without that support but there are no welds to fail on the main hoop. You more than likely will have 6 welds on the main hoop. Every weld is a potential failure point.

Not a problem if you are a good welder but you really are going to need to gusset every bend on the square, not with just a gusset on the inside of the bend but a diamond shaped peice on all 4 sides of the square.

That is what I think is needed, some may think its overkill but if there is anyplace for overkill that is it

I agree.

 

[86k5heavy]

No worries dude, this always happens, it's all friendly fodder really. It's all good. I always like the thinking outside the box ideas, just keep safety first and formost in you mind. Too many people put that as an after thought. You can do a straight tube cage with little or no bends. There is a good build on just this subject on pirate4x4. The guy did an awesome job on his cage. He did use round tube though. Nothing at all as far as a cage goes is of course the most dangerous situation there is. Having a square tube cage will still be very strong and make for a much safer condition for damn sure.


It is just a fact that round tube is stronger though. The entire circumference of the tube is the same. Its round so there is no weak spots. A piece of flat metal bends easily across the flat section. But try to bend it on its side and its much stronger. Square tube that gets bent only has two of the four sides in the stronger plane to support the tube. The top and bottom of the tube is in the flat plane and in not giving much resistance to the force of the bend. Having square tube in the diamond plane is not much better. The tube just wants to colapse. It wants to spread the width of the tube wider, and flatten out top to bottom. It's simply the shape of the tube structure thats weak.

Where as round tune has equal strength in any direction load is applied period. It's the simple physics of structure really.

Is there any way you can post up the link for this build. Thank you.

 

[DEMON44]

the ROPS on heavy equipment is certainly built out of square and flat metal. but its not constructed at all in the same manner as someone hacking square into a truck or blazer. and it obviously far heavier guage than anyone in their right mind would use in a truck. for trying to save someone from a 55,000lb dozer rolling.

 

[gwag]

If you think square tubing can't be bent without deforming you need to check out thunderstruck front end replacements. I plan to tour the plant & see how they do it (I'm a distributor) because the bends are as flawless as any round bends I've seen and when compared to a competitors round tube bumper are stronger. They also turn it 1/4 turn (diamond) and claim it to be stronger than round proven by testing.
I have also seen 1/4 turned square used in livestok equipment because it is stronger than the same size & thickness round.
I'm considering having them bend me the pieces for a cage for a CUCV so I can weld it up myself. If the square is on the diamond it would be coped, or notched at the joints giving simular joints as on round tube.
I can also recall custom motorcycle builders using square tube on frames to be different but claimed they were stronger than round.
I'm not knocking round I'm just saying it's not the only safe material.

 

[rdn2blazer]

If you think square tubing can't be bent without deforming you need to check out thunderstruck front end replacements. I plan to tour the plant & see how they do it (I'm a distributor) because the bends are as flawless as any round bends I've seen and when compared to a competitors round tube bumper are stronger. They also turn it 1/4 turn (diamond) and claim it to be stronger than round proven by testing.
I have also seen 1/4 turned square used in livestok equipment because it is stronger than the same size & thickness round.
I'm considering having them bend me the pieces for a cage for a CUCV so I can weld it up myself. If the square is on the diamond it would be coped, or notched at the joints giving simular joints as on round tube.
I can also recall custom motorcycle builders using square tube on frames to be different but claimed they were stronger than round.
I'm not knocking round I'm just saying it's not the only safe material.

I would HAVE to see proof myself before I would ever believe square tube to be stronger then round. It's just not structurally possible IMHO.

 

[rdn2blazer]

the ROPS on heavy equipment is certainly built out of square and flat metal. but its not constructed at all in the same manner as someone hacking square into a truck or blazer. and it obviously far heavier guage than anyone in their right mind would use in a truck. for trying to save someone from a 55,000lb dozer rolling.

Yeah, what he said.

 

[rdn2blazer]

Is there any way you can post up the link for this build. Thank you.

Read thru this thread. Someone posted the link with in this "no bend cage" thread. It is round tube though. NOT square.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=859438&highlight=bend+cages

 

[gwag]

I would HAVE to see proof myself before I would ever believe square tube to be stronger then round. It's just not structurally possible IMHO.

I'm not trying to change your mind so don't feel the need to prove anything to you. I'm just giving my opinion to the OP that it could safely be done & I will probably do it on my own rig as well. I also believe if I get thunderstruck to bend the tubes for me they may look into marketing pre-bent cage kits (round or square) and if they do them the way they do the bumpers they will be very price competitive.
I will say it's their claim not mine but I get people in here all the time who have the round tube bumpers & you can push/pull on them & see the give & flex that you don't get in the 1/4 turn square thunderstruck bumpers.
I sell well over 100 of these a year and see all brands of bent up round tube bumpers from deer & livestock hits but the only damage I have ever seen on a thunderstruck was down low on the sheet metal when a guy hit a 400 lb. calf at 65 mph and this was minimal with no damage to the truck itself. He just washed off the meat & blood & is still running it.