The Shop Truck

[folkenheath]

The boost reference is coming from right below the bypass valve on the intake manifold, it's a 4AN line that's about 6" long.

It's the biggest one I could fit with minimal modifications to the core support. I also have the 5 gallon tank so I don't think the cooler itself is even involved during a 1/4 pass. I use the main fans and intercooler pump to cool down the engine and water tank, I make sure to get it down below 100 when I can while I'm in the lanes.

That's good to know. Is that what they call the "hell-pumps"?

I don't know, never heard that term, but some of them are pretty darn loud and annoying.

Thank you, I appreciate that we are able to have differing opinions without pissing each other off. I like the conversation and it definitely gives me ideas for how to change things in the future. I think this pump can keep up with the blower and I can add fuel through the blower when I spray. I think it's the best solution for my goals.

Yeah we should always be able to discuss things, I am just here to help you with info of what I know works, it's still your truck to decide.

You will still have the closed loop control of the EFI with the wet fuel solenoid just not the distribution with a single nozzle orifice that far up.

If I drilled and tapped new holes, assuming it didn't overlap with any other holes, they would go all the way into the tank, meaning it would leak. The inner diameter of the flange is welded to the tank from the inside (before I put the top on), it's only tacked on around the outer diameter.

Since you made it so thick, if I was doing that I would only drill partway through, 3/8-7/16, and then use a bottoming tap, would be plenty of threads for a #10 screw.

However, your 10 bolt flange bolt circle is 4", the hole for the 12 bolt flange is 4.5", with a bolt circle over 5", so your flange would be too small. You would have to cut out your flange and use the 12 bolt gaskets and inner plate which would be more work.

Hopefully you can make what you have work.

 

[r3dd0g]

I don't know, never heard that term, but some of them are pretty darn loud and annoying.

I believe the name comes from the fact that they come in hellcats.

Since you made it so thick, if I was doing that I would only drill partway through, 3/8-7/16, and then use a bottoming tap, would be plenty of threads for a #10 screw.

However, your 10 bolt flange bolt circle is 4", the hole for the 12 bolt flange is 4.5", with a bolt circle over 5", so your flange would be too small. You would have to cut out your flange and use the 12 bolt gaskets and inner plate which would be more work.

Yes, I was pretty sure that it was a different size as well. If anything I will add a surge tank/pump.

Hopefully you can make what you have work.

I'm so close to being where I want the truck to be. Its got to work.

 

[JoshHefnerX]

Any possibility that the pump is being starved electrically?

 

[r3dd0g]

Anything possible, but it really doesn't take that much power.

 

[JoshHefnerX]

I've heard of voltage drops hurting pumps on cars a lot less powerful than yours. Just a thought

 

[r3dd0g]

I can turn the pump all the way up and test voltage. I'll try that tomorrow.

 

[shady]

Just a heads up. There will be more of an electrical draw when it's actually using all that fuel, than when its running full out and just circulating back through the return.
When it's dead heading and circulating back it's actually moving less fuel.

Wouldn't be a huge difference probably.
But maybe enough to draw volts down more if there IS a drop.

 

[Babaganoosh]

When in Moab my truck would randomly die late in the day, the battery would die and drop voltage even though the alternator was keeping up. Ended up being an old battery. I calculated the voltage off the psi of the pump and found it.

Fixed it with 2 batteries and bridging the fuel pump off two 30amp circuits on the mad solid state relay.

 

[r3dd0g]

Just a heads up. There will be more of an electrical draw when it's actually using all that fuel, than when its running full out and just circulating back through the return.
When it's dead heading and circulating back it's actually moving less fuel.

Wouldn't be a huge difference probably.
But maybe enough to draw volts down more if there IS a drop.

I would think the pump has to work harder to pump the fuel all the way up through the fuel rails and back to the tank. When the injectors are using all the fuel it only has to pump it to the rails, eliminating the return trip.

When in Moab my truck would randomly die late in the day, the battery would die and drop voltage even though the alternator was keeping up. Ended up being an old battery. I calculated the voltage off the psi of the pump and found it.

Fixed it with 2 batteries and bridging the fuel pump off two 30amp circuits on the mad solid state relay.

I'm running a LiFeP04 starting battery, it's got 13+V with the truck shut off.

 

[shady]

The resistance of the regulator actually works in opposite.

Common place at work, if we have a pump drawing too many amps, we close the discharge side valve down some, and keep checking amps.
Close it till the amps get happy. Which is a lot of the time 50% or slightly more.
If you opened the fuel line, and pumped if whole hog wide open into a barrel it'd probably draw its most amps,
But it would actually be working more efficient while doing so.

Higher amp draw= more voltage drop, if your electrical system can't keep up.


Kind of a cheat code, when you are running a vehicle with a lot of high draw loads. Hook in a GOOD capacitor, like the ones they use in stereo systems. They help anything using power.
Coils, injectors, fans, etc.

Some factory cars have actually started using them the last few years.

 

[shady]

Just thought about it...
Did you say you're running lithium batteries?
I was thinking it's you, but not sure.

Anyhow. Some lithium types don't actually benefit from having capacitors. Due to their available discharge rate.

 

[r3dd0g]

I do have a lithium battery.

 

[r3dd0g]

Well, testing didn't go well, but the truck is fine.
On Wednesday evening we decided that I should go ahead and get the secondary fuel system installed. That took all day Thursday and Friday and I barely got done in time to make it to the track last night, which bit me in the butt.
Since the last time down the track I changed a few things besides the secondary fuel system (which I didn't even turn on all night). I replaced the power wiring for the Dominator so it ran all the way to the battery. When I rewired the truck, I moved that to the bus bar under the center console, @folkenheath correctly guessed that this was why my EGT probes were reading weird. They work perfectly now, thanks Heath!

To address the fuel pressure issue I replaced the fuel filter and I ran a bigger power wire for the fuel pump (it's 10 ga TXL wire now). I drained the tank to install the secondary fuel system so when I filled it I put 18 gallons in, approx 3/4 tank. We also decided to leave the nitrous off until we got the truck reliably going down the track with good fuel pressure.

First run, I'm not sure where my brain was, I let go of the button and went, "why did the truck stop accelerating?" and realized I let my foot off the throttle at the same time as I let go of the button . I'm so paranoid when I do a 2 step check because I tend to let go of the button before I let go of the throttle, I think my subconscious just took over? I was laughing at myself all the way down track. Fuel pressure did a pretty good job of tracking, but still seems to max out at 58-60psi.

[email protected]. The Torque converter lockup works great! I was only down 3mph from the best top speed without any nitrous.

Second run, it blew the tires off (3000RPM leave, 15° pulled and brought back in over .5 seconds). Fuel looked the same, almost keeping up, but not quite. Trims were in the 5-6% range. While we were in the staging lanes, Amber asked "did you check the tire pressure?" , I had not. I was rushing so much I forgot to do that, and something else that I still didn't remember.

[email protected]. The torque converter locking up is still awesome. It pulls the engine down more than 1-2 or 2-3.

We put air in the tires (28psi, they were at 23) and Amber found something online about the Fluidworks regulators having issues if you install a different fitting for the boost reference. It said that it can bind the spring and make the regulator not go full range. We took the regulator apart, there was fuel on the top of the diaphragm, although it didn't look torn, we replaced it and decided that there was no way our fitting was coming anywhere near any of the moving parts inside the regulator.
3rd run, we lowered the leave down to 2800RPM and pushed the timing retard out to a full second of decay. It still blew the tires off. The fuel pressure didn't like the new diaphragm or something (still not sure). Trims got up to 15% but duty cycle was still below 85% , so it was safeish.

[email protected].

I was contemplating putting it on the trailer, but we decided to swap out the fuel pump since we had it there. While I was coming back down the return road I remembered that I also didn't adjust the shocks to race mode . Clicks were added to the shocks and the fuel pump was swapped out, I dropped the leave to 2700RPM and 1 full second of retard decay. It finally went down the track, but fuel pressure still sucked.

[email protected]. Not bad for no nitrous, but we've really got to figure out the fuel pressure thing. @folkenheath may also be right about the tires being done, because that was still only a 1.52 60' and I struggled to get that. Amber also didn't do great with the cameras, I had asked her to get the slow mo camera closer to the truck, which didn't work out. She couldn't reach over the wall to set it down properly so only one of the videos turned out.

We're going to do some testing with the fuel pump/regulator today to see if we can replicate the issue in the garage. I'm thinking that there may be 2 problems, one with the regulator and one with the tank. I'm not positive the change in pressure was because of the regulator diaphragm we swapped, I'm thinking maybe it was just the lower fuel level, but that was 75% on the first run and 73% on the last run, so that's probably not it.

Unless we figure out something this weekend, there's no point in going to Street car takeover. If we do figure something out I'll probably just sign up for test and tune one day so I can get some more testing in before we go down to Tucson after Thanksgiving.

 

[r3dd0g]

After digging through the logs some more, I'm out of fuel pump. We hit over 1100lbs/hr of fuel flow on the third and fourth runs, which is over 600lph. For some reason we only hit 960lbs/hr on the first two runs. I'm guessing it was just better air.

 

[r3dd0g]

This pump would bolt in, I'd just have to redo my lines and wiring. It's in stock so I could go racing next weekend, but I still don't know what to do about traction.
Aeromotive dual 450lph pump
It's in stock so we'd probably have it on Tuesday or Wednesday.

 

[shady]

I know they always say less weight in a drag car.
But with the power you have, and a flat bed. I'd bolt down a as big a sheet of 1/2" steel sheet as will fit.
Itd be basically invisible, so as not to change the look of it. But add enough weight over the wheels that to get your traction.
I think the additional traction would far offset the difference the weight would make .
And you could always unbolt it crane it out when you wanted.

Ofr keep with the farm truck look and bolt a couple tractor wheel weights right over the center of the axle.
Then you could add or pull one for adjustability

 

[r3dd0g]

I know they always say less weight in a drag car.
But with the power you have, and a flat bed. I'd bolt down a as big a sheet of 1/2" steel sheet as will fit.
Itd be basically invisible, so as not to change the look of it. But add enough weight over the wheels that to get your traction.
I think the additional traction would far offset the difference the weight would make .
And you could always unbolt it crane it out when you wanted.

Ofr keep with the farm truck look and bolt a couple tractor wheel weights right over the center of the axle.
Then you could add or pull one for adjustability

I had someone tell me that I should bolt a big block in the bed over the axle, same concept.

 

[folkenheath]

Well, testing didn't go well, but the truck is fine.

If all you got was not the best result you are doing great.

I replaced the power wiring for the Dominator so it ran all the way to the battery. When I rewired the truck, I moved that to the bus bar under the center console, @folkenheath correctly guessed that this was why my EGT probes were reading weird. They work perfectly now, thanks Heath!
View attachment 538676

I was wondering about that, glad to gear they are working perfectly now!

To address the fuel pressure issue I replaced the fuel filter and I ran a bigger power wire for the fuel pump (it's 10 ga TXL wire now). I drained the tank to install the secondary fuel system so when I filled it I put 18 gallons in, approx 3/4 tank. We also decided to leave the nitrous off until we got the truck reliably going down the track with good fuel pressure.

First run, I'm not sure where my brain was, I let go of the button and went, "why did the truck stop accelerating?" and realized I let my foot off the throttle at the same time as I let go of the button . I'm so paranoid when I do a 2 step check because I tend to let go of the button before I let go of the throttle, I think my subconscious just took over? I was laughing at myself all the way down track. Fuel pressure did a pretty good job of tracking, but still seems to max out at 58-60psi.
View attachment 538675
[email protected]. The Torque converter lockup works great! I was only down 3mph from the best top speed without any nitrous.

Second run, it blew the tires off (3000RPM leave, 15° pulled and brought back in over .5 seconds). Fuel looked the same, almost keeping up, but not quite. Trims were in the 5-6% range. While we were in the staging lanes, Amber asked "did you check the tire pressure?" , I had not. I was rushing so much I forgot to do that, and something else that I still didn't remember.
View attachment 538677
[email protected]. The torque converter locking up is still awesome. It pulls the engine down more than 1-2 or 2-3.
View attachment 538680
We put air in the tires (28psi, they were at 23) and Amber found something online about the Fluidworks regulators having issues if you install a different fitting for the boost reference. It said that it can bind the spring and make the regulator not go full range. We took the regulator apart, there was fuel on the top of the diaphragm, although it didn't look torn, we replaced it and decided that there was no way our fitting was coming anywhere near any of the moving parts inside the regulator.
3rd run, we lowered the leave down to 2800RPM and pushed the timing retard out to a full second of decay. It still blew the tires off. The fuel pressure didn't like the new diaphragm or something (still not sure). Trims got up to 15% but duty cycle was still below 85% , so it was safeish.
View attachment 538681
[email protected].

126 without the bottle is still probably a new best MPH no nitrous?

At 85% knowing your pump can't supply what your injectors can is getting close.

I was contemplating putting it on the trailer, but we decided to swap out the fuel pump since we had it there. While I was coming back down the return road I remembered that I also didn't adjust the shocks to race mode . Clicks were added to the shocks and the fuel pump was swapped out, I dropped the leave to 2700RPM and 1 full second of retard decay. It finally went down the track, but fuel pressure still sucked.
View attachment 538682

[email protected]. Not bad for no nitrous, but we've really got to figure out the fuel pressure thing. @folkenheath may also be right about the tires being done, because that was still only a 1.52 60' and I struggled to get that. Amber also didn't do great with the cameras, I had asked her to get the slow mo camera closer to the truck, which didn't work out. She couldn't reach over the wall to set it down properly so only one of the videos turned out.

We're going to do some testing with the fuel pump/regulator today to see if we can replicate the issue in the garage. I'm thinking that there may be 2 problems, one with the regulator and one with the tank. I'm not positive the change in pressure was because of the regulator diaphragm we swapped, I'm thinking maybe it was just the lower fuel level, but that was 75% on the first run and 73% on the last run, so that's probably not it.

Unless we figure out something this weekend, there's no point in going to Street car takeover. If we do figure something out I'll probably just sign up for test and tune one day so I can get some more testing in before we go down to Tucson after Thanksgiving.

This pump would bolt in, I'd just have to redo my lines and wiring. It's in stock so I could go racing next weekend....Aeromotive dual 450lph pump

I could have one of those drop shipped 2nd day air for you, I think I could do that no charge on the 2nd day air and $15 if you want next day air. I can't always do that but it this order I think I could.

but I still don't know what to do about traction.

I think you should replace the tires. You have a spool, and I believe from looking at your videos you have plenty of weight transfer going on, and you were hooking better 60 fts previously. I think with your truck weight and that tire size, tire life is going to be much shorter than tread life. I would not add any more weight that would shorten tire life further.