The Shop Truck

[r3dd0g]

I think you meant lb/hr but yeah, you are on the edge. To be honest the Aeromotive dual 450s aren't rated super high power for EFI on E85, they only rate them for 1100 HP. However, if you look at this chart from TI, who makes the pumps, they should still flow 760 lph at 60 psi(with two of them), which is 30% more fuel and about what your injectors flow so it should get you what you need.

Yes I meant lb/hr. I'm assuming two 450lph pumps are going to pump 900lph at 43psi, it does drop off quicker than my brushless did with rising pressure though. The highest boost I've seen was 16.8psi at Northern Michigan. I will only be using these pumps for feeding the blower, I'll still use the other setup for nitrous and spray fuel through the blower.

I still think its the best option, its a good find that bolts to your pattern and also solves the return being under the fuel level issue.

It also has the foam insert, an integrated fuel level (the one I installed sucks) and the extension on the return line. I'm pretty sure I can set it up so I can swap between the Fuelab and the Aeromotive pumps easily.

I still would of made a little money and would of been glad to help but I understand, my website is not that good, so you can't just click it and order it. So you basically have to tell me to and then I order it and send tracking when they send it to me usually that evening so I usually send it the next morning. But I don't always get tracking on a drop ship either.

And if you are ordering other small items that also need 2 day shipping and its a different shipment because the pump is not in stock, then it may start to get tricky for me to match.

Yes, I need an 8an to 10an Y and some more 10ga TXL wire. If I don't buy the pump through them I'd have to pay shipping.

Yeah I did a long 700 ft burnout once for a charity carshow. The very next trip to the track my tires were done. Drag radials can't take the heat for long burnouts, they want a short quick burnout, once the smoke starts to come off you let off.

You can still do them if you want, but you will need to replace them more often.

I tried to do a big burnout on my last run on Friday, I was disappointed in the lack of smoke that came off the tires, so it's obvious they're getting harder.

When you liked them and used them for autocross I dropped that subject, I figured you are a smart guy, you'll figure it out, I didn't think it would be that soon.

I think these are still going to get the job done for me. With the new fuel pump, spool, secondary fuel system for the nitrous, and a fresh set of tires, I think I can get the 9 I want to see at least once. Then I'll soften up the leave and make it a 10.50 bracket truck. I think those 1.42 60' time slips are going to destroy the tires way to quick for my taste, they really only lasted 5 runs in Michigan. They were pretty much toast the next time I tried to go down the track. They're still good enough for a 10.50 though. I may leave them on and do some big smokey burnouts at Steet Car Takeover to finish them off. I'm not going to be competitive in my first ever heads up bracket race with an instant green tree, so I may as well look cool losing.

 

[folkenheath]

Yes I meant lb/hr. I'm assuming two 450lph pumps are going to pump 900lph at 43psi, it does drop off quicker than my brushless did with rising pressure though. The highest boost I've seen was 16.8psi at Northern Michigan. I will only be using these pumps for feeding the blower, I'll still use the other setup for nitrous and spray fuel through the blower.

The 450 is free flow, 43 psi is about 425 per pump and at 60 psi its like 380 per pump, but your current pump was only about 570 lph at 60 psi, so 760 is over 30% more fuel at 60 psi.

It also has the foam insert, an integrated fuel level (the one I installed sucks) and the extension on the return line. I'm pretty sure I can set it up so I can swap between the Fuelab and the Aeromotive pumps easily.

What is the reason to swap back and forth? I'd just program the Holley to turn the 2nd pump on when needed, only one pump running most of the time will be quiet with less heat and less amperage. Make sure you test that output in the software, it would be bad if it did not turn on. I think if you do that you'll likely find you have no reason to swap it back. You can get a spare 450 for under $130, just make sure its a genuine USA made Walbro (TI), not a cheap knockoff. My distributor carries the real pumps.

Yes, I need an 8an to 10an Y and some more 10ga TXL wire. If I don't buy the pump through them I'd have to pay shipping.

I don't have a warehouse in Vegas, so multiple shipments to match one starts to get hard to compete. If my distributor has it all in stock, then it's easier, they are currently out of that particular pump, which they usually stock.

I tried to do a big burnout on my last run on Friday, I was disappointed in the lack of smoke that came off the tires, so it's obvious they're getting harder.

I think these are still going to get the job done for me. With the new fuel pump, spool, secondary fuel system for the nitrous, and a fresh set of tires, I think I can get the 9 I want to see at least once.

My math says to go from a 10.50 to a 9.95 with your current setup would require getting an additional ~230 HP down, that may not be easy. The faster you go, the more it takes to go just a little faster.

Then I'll soften up the leave and make it a 10.50 bracket truck. I think those 1.42 60' time slips are going to destroy the tires way to quick for my taste, they really only lasted 5 runs in Michigan. They were pretty much toast the next time I tried to go down the track. They're still good enough for a 10.50 though. I may leave them on and do some big smokey burnouts at Steet Car Takeover to finish them off. I'm not going to be competitive in my first ever heads up bracket race with an instant green tree, so I may as well look cool losing.

It would be very hard to compete in a heads up race with that heavy of a vehicle. Just have fun!

Take some more videos, they are fun to watch!

 

[r3dd0g]

The 450 is free flow, 43 psi is about 425 per pump and at 60 psi its like 380 per pump, but your current pump was only about 570 lph at 60 psi, so 760 is over 30% more fuel at 60 psi.

I didn't realize they were rated at free flow volume. My other pump is rated at 625lph @45psi.

What is the reason to swap back and forth? I'd just program the Holley to turn the 2nd pump on when needed, only one pump running most of the time will be quiet with less heat and less amperage. Make sure you test that output in the software, it would be bad if it did not turn on. I think if you do that you'll likely find you have no reason to swap it back. You can get a spare 450 for under $130, just make sure its a genuine USA made Walbro (TI), not a cheap knockoff. My distributor carries the real pumps.

If I think it's too loud, I'll probably switch back. When I build the new race vehicle and this one goes back to being a little more mild, I can go back to the brushless as well.

My math says to go from a 10.50 to a 9.95 with your current setup would require getting an additional ~230 HP down, that may not be easy. The faster you go, the more it takes to go just a little faster.

I just ran a 10.66 with no nitrous, that was only a 1.52 60' as well. If I can get my 60' down into the 1.3x's I'll be at 10.50 without nitrous, I'm OK with spraying 250 just to get the number once.

It would be very hard to compete in a heads up race with that heavy of a vehicle. Just have fun!

I'm aware and I'm just hoping I make it more than one round. It's drag racing, anything can happen.

Take some more videos, they are fun to watch!

We had video difficulty Friday, so I don't think I really have any good footage. I keep telling Amber she can walk right up behind me after my burnout to set the camera down, but she's a little shy when it comes to doing things like that.

10.66 on Friday, transplanting a saguaro on Sunday! This is also what the shop truck is all about. My friend had this cactus pop up in his front yard about 15 years ago, his GF at the time transplanted it right by his house thinking it was a barrel cactus, it was not. He offered it to me, so I took it.

I will say I am not a fan of the spool, I will be swapping it out once I get my 9.999 and putting a truetrac back in.

 

[r3dd0g]

Well, the pump showed up and it's the wrong bolt pattern... When I searched for what 10 bolt pattern Aeromotive uses it came up with a 10 bolt 4" pattern, which is what the Fuelab pump uses. This one is 6.25"ish. I'm not even certain the 2 pumps would fit in the hole in mine side by side.

 

[folkenheath]

10.66 on Friday, transplanting a saguaro on Sunday! This is also what the shop truck is all about. My friend had this cactus pop up in his front yard about 15 years ago, his GF at the time transplanted it right by his house thinking it was a barrel cactus, it was not. He offered it to me, so I took it.

That's awesome!

I will say I am not a fan of the spool, I will be swapping it out once I get my 9.999 and putting a truetrac back in.

Yeah they will do that, low speed tight turns are not their strong point.

I hope you get your 9.99!

Well, the pump showed up and it's the wrong bolt pattern... When I searched for what 10 bolt pattern Aeromotive uses it came up with a 10 bolt 4" pattern, which is what the Fuelab pump uses. This one is 6.25"ish. I'm not even certain the 2 pumps would fit in the hole in mine side by side.

That's a bummer, I thought you had found a direct swap. I did wonder about the hole size because I had to cut a larger hole in my stock tank to fit the dual 450s, but that was stock, not your 10 bolt. You going to make it fit or what's your plan?

 

[r3dd0g]

That's awesome!



Yeah they will do that, low speed tight turns are not their strong point.

I hope you get your 9.99!



That's a bummer, I thought you had found a direct swap. I did wonder about the hole size because I had to cut a larger hole in my stock tank to fit the dual 450s, but that was stock, not your 10 bolt. You going to make it fit or what's your plan?

I cannot make this pump fit in my tank unfortunately. It has the one piece that you can put inside your tank after you drill the holes and clamps onto the top tank surface to seal.

My pump is at the very back of the tank, my pump flange actually fits inside the flange that you would drop into the tank, so I would have to cut my flange off the top of the tank somehow to be able to get the hole for the new pump in the right place.

If I just cut out my existing flange, the new flange would be hanging off the back.

 

[r3dd0g]

This pump will work, I'll have to add a return somewhere, but it would work.

5.0 GPM In-Tank Brushless Fuel Pump

Ground Shaking Performance – Advanced Technology Supports Fuel injected engines: GASup to 3400 FWHP – naturally aspiratedup to 2600 FWHP – forced air induction Carbureted engines: GASUp to 3600 FWHP – naturally aspiratedUp to 2700 FWHP – forced air induction Fuel injected engines: E85up to 2380...

aeromotiveinc.com

I'm not sure what they look like inside, but the pump itself is huge compared to the Fuelab. I'm sure that helps with heat dissipation, their design comes in 3.5, 5, 7, and 10gpm, so I'm guessing they have a better design than the one I have.
Unfortunately they are build to order and I can't seem to find anyone that has the specific one I need in stock. I'm going to call them today and get one ordered, but It won't be here for Street Car Takeover or the event down in Tucson (Copper State Cruise and Race). I want to support the drag and drive event, so we'll go to that, we'll just have to use the big pulley and do 11's instead of 10's.

 

[Babaganoosh]

I hope I don't run into any of this pump trouble when mine gets boosted. When the 6.0 blows up it's getting a big cubic inch LS or big block, haven't confirmed yet but leaning towards keeping it LS

 

[r3dd0g]

There are plenty of options for lower power. The two 3.5gpm pumps I have are great, but with the blower they just can't keep up. To make the 1000 crank HP the engine is making way more than that because it has to spin the blower with the other end of the crank.

I called Aeromotive and was reminded of why I didn't buy theirs to begin with. They were adamant that if it was going to be street driven, I would have to use the variable speed option and only crank the pump up when needed. Then he reminded me that their pump requires a 0 to 5V signal for this functionality, something the Dominator can't do. He did mention that Haltec makes a converter, so I could use that, but his overly cautious attitude about not running the pump at full speed has me worried. It's no longer a drop in solution at that point. I'd have to get the Haltec unit, weld in a return bung, and redo the plumbing.

So here are the options I see and estimated cost/labor efforts.
-The Aeromotive 5GPM pump is the least labor intensive to install of these options, but it is the most expensive and I question the reliability. I really wouldn't want to buy a spare one of these at the $2000 price point. Total cost for this would be a bit over $2000 and 3-4 week lead time.
-Pull the tank out, cut out my existing flange, weld in a new piece of aluminum to the top of the tank and drill it for the Aeromotive fuel pump that I bought. This is pretty high effort, would require new fuel line routing and would cost around $1300 which I've already spent, but I can return it. I don't like this option because if I lose one pump on a drag hit I could fry my engine. I know this isn't likely, but it's going to stress me out. A spare pump for this setup is pretty cheap.
-Buy a radium surge tank, put two 450lph pumps in it that only turn on when I push the race mode button, otherwise the Fuelab pump would bypass the tank during normal operations through a check valve. This is a bit more effort than the Aeromotive pump, I'd maintain the reliability of the Fuelab pump, but have added capacity when I need it. The tank would fit in the toolbox that the relay panel is currently in. This could be done for less than $1000 and I think all the parts are readily availible.
Disregard this option, the radium tank isn't designed for high pressure.
-Final option, cut the current flange off the tank, make a new flange that is designed to put both of my pumps side by side in the tank, weld it in. Program the second pump to only come on if I push the race mode button. Cost is negligible, labor is high, but I could get it done before the race in Tucson on the 27-28th. I would always have my spare pump installed and it would only take swapping a connector to change which pump is primary. I'd still have the worry about losing a single pump during a run, but in this case, 1 pump can get it down the track, but it's borderline. If I did this option I would also add a separate return line fitting in the flange with a tube extending down to the bottom of the tank.

I'm leaning towards option 4 (I was leaning towards option 3 until I realized it wouldn't work).

 

[r3dd0g]

One of the photographers from Michigan Miles finally posted up a bunch more pictures. Here's some good shots of the Shop Truck and some of the other people we made friends with during the trip.


This is in front of Steve Morris's' shop. You can see Amber taking the video in the background.

 

[folkenheath]

I hope I don't run into any of this pump trouble when mine gets boosted. When the 6.0 blows up it's getting a big cubic inch LS or big block, haven't confirmed yet but leaning towards keeping it LS

If you are using gasoline you only need about 2/3 the fuel for the same power, we'll get you sorted out Ben won't be a problem.

-Final option, cut the current flange off the tank, make a new flange that is designed to put both of my pumps side by side in the tank, weld it in. Program the second pump to only come on if I push the race mode button.

Is there any chance you go down the track and forget race mode? I think for safety reasons I would let the computer switch it on and off for you based on boost pressure, nitrous being on, etc. There are so many options there that are automatic, that way you can't forget, which could be bad.

Cost is negligible, labor is high, but I could get it done before the race in Tucson on the 27-28th. I would always have my spare pump installed and it would only take swapping a connector to change which pump is primary. I'd still have the worry about losing a single pump during a run, but in this case, 1 pump can get it down the track, but it's borderline.

You can also program safeties in so that if the fuel pressure or the AFR etc drop below certain values that it will cut timing and/or warn you so you can abort the pass.

If I did this option I would also add a separate return line fitting in the flange with a tube extending down to the bottom of the tank.

Then you solved the only remaining problem of those pumps, good idea.

I'm leaning towards option 4 (I was leaning towards option 3 until I realized it wouldn't work).

It sounds like a good solution especially since you have the pumps.

A 5th option is to just run gasoline where you only need 2/3 the fuel. You are only at 15 psi boost and unless you compression is high you could get away with premium pump fuel. You also have what seems to be an excellent intercooler system so you are setup for it. On the other hand you won't be spraying a 250 shot with pump gas so even if your compression is not high you likely won't get your 9 second run without race gas and that's expensive.

 

[r3dd0g]

Is there any chance you go down the track and forget race mode?

If I'm not in race mode, the 2 step button is a horn and I'd blow the tires off trying to get on the 2 step, also the nitrous wouldn't be armed, no chance of going down the track without it enabled. I'd probably be laughing so hard when I honked the horn on the start line that I wouldn't be able to compose myself for the run though.

You can also program safeties in so that if the fuel pressure or the AFR etc drop below certain values that it will cut timing and/or warn you so you can abort the pass.

I had thought about that and will probably set something up. What I really need is a table that compares fuel pressure to what it should be and cuts power if the pressure goes too low. I'm not sure you can math that out in the Holley software, but that's my plan.

Then you solved the only remaining problem of those pumps, good idea.

I figured, "while I'm in here anyways".

It sounds like a good solution especially since you have the pumps.

I called Fuelab this morning to verify that I can run these in parallel. They said there's no problem as long as I run check valves. They will still be PWM controlled so they won't go to full speed until I'm WOT.

A 5th option is to just run gasoline where you only need 2/3 the fuel. You are only at 15 psi boost and unless you compression is high you could get away with premium pump fuel. You also have what seems to be an excellent intercooler system so you are setup for it. On the other hand you won't be spraying a 250 shot with pump gas so even if your compression is not high you likely won't get your 9 second run without race gas and that's expensive.

The same place I get my e85 at has 100 octane on the same pump, other than that my choice is 91 octane in AZ. Because we're at 1300 feet we don't get 93.
I have the pump as a spare, installing it keeps that functionality as I can just swap some wires around and run on either pump. The 3.5GPM pump has been absolutely flawless so far, so I'm pretty comfortable with this solution.
The Haltec PWM to 5V signal also has me thinking. I could use that to fully control my Smoothboost with the Holley, this would allow me to control boost by time on a launch, dump boost if I'm running out of fuel, etc. I think I may be able to do some or all of that without it though, the PWM unit for the smooth boost allows you to open the valve regardless of throttle pedal position, it just doesn't allow you to close it unless it's at WOT. The only exception to that is that it has a "scramble" wire that forces the valve closed when it's grounded out.

 

[r3dd0g]

I also forgot to mention, it looks like Street Car Takeover may get rained out anyways, so I'm not missing anything.

 

[folkenheath]

If I'm not in race mode, the 2 step button is a horn and I'd blow the tires off trying to get on the 2 step, also the nitrous wouldn't be armed, no chance of going down the track without it enabled. I'd probably be laughing so hard when I honked the horn on the start line that I wouldn't be able to compose myself for the run though.

That's funny that's the exact same thing I did back in 2017 when I wired my car, my Tbrake button is wired in parallel with my horn button so there are no external wires hanging. My race mode button converts it to the Tbrake button. And I have laughed when I honked the horn before staging after the burnout during the Tbrake test.

But with that pulley on, wouldn't it still be possible to hit that boost level where you need the extra pump when not in race mode?

I had thought about that and will probably set something up. What I really need is a table that compares fuel pressure to what it should be and cuts power if the pressure goes too low. I'm not sure you can math that out in the Holley software, but that's my plan.

You can do that with a 2D advanced table, you can turn the timing down if the fuel pressure and boost aren't correlating.

The same place I get my e85 at has 100 octane on the same pump, other than that my choice is 91 octane in AZ. Because we're at 1300 feet we don't get 93.
I have the pump as a spare, installing it keeps that functionality as I can just swap some wires around and run on either pump. The 3.5GPM pump has been absolutely flawless so far, so I'm pretty comfortable with this solution.
The Haltec PWM to 5V signal also has me thinking. I could use that to fully control my Smoothboost with the Holley, this would allow me to control boost by time on a launch, dump boost if I'm running out of fuel, etc. I think I may be able to do some or all of that without it though, the PWM unit for the smooth boost allows you to open the valve regardless of throttle pedal position, it just doesn't allow you to close it unless it's at WOT. The only exception to that is that it has a "scramble" wire that forces the valve closed when it's grounded out.

If you added boost control you could also turn the boost down if fuel pressure isn't keeping up as an additional safety measure.

 

[r3dd0g]

That's funny that's the exact same thing I did back in 2017 when I wired my car, my Tbrake button is wired in parallel with my horn button so there are no external wires hanging. My race mode button converts it to the Tbrake button. And I have laughed when I honked the horn before staging after the burnout during the Tbrake test.

With the blower I don't need to "bump in", I just light the second light then push the t-brake button. I wouldn't know until just before I was ready to launch that it wasn't in race mode.

But with that pulley on, wouldn't it still be possible to hit that boost level where you need the extra pump when not in race mode?

If conditions were perfect, yes, but I don't generally drive around on the street with the party pully on. In fact I just realized I can go from my 3.05" pulley to my 3.700" pulley without changing belts. It's much nicer to drive on the street with the big pully and puts less wear and tear on everything. I could also set up a table that limits the boost to 10psi if I'm not in race mode, I have plenty of options to prevent that from happening.

You can do that with a 2D advanced table, you can turn the timing down if the fuel pressure and boost aren't correlating.
If you added boost control you could also turn the boost down if fuel pressure isn't keeping up as an additional safety measure.

I would probably just use the "boost cut" wire that goes to the Smoothboost PWM controller, that would pop the bypass fully open and make it clear that I had a problem. It's already wired into the Dominator, so is the "scramble" wire.

 

[folkenheath]

With the blower I don't need to "bump in", I just light the second light then push the t-brake button. I wouldn't know until just before I was ready to launch that it wasn't in race mode.

Same for me, but how deep you are in the light affects your reaction time and you could go red, and occasionally if you haven't used your Tbrake for a while it may roll a tad when you release the brake pedal so the first pass of the day I always apply the Tbrake before I stage to prime the circuit, release brake pedal as a check, then release Tbrake, then stage.

If conditions were perfect, yes, but I don't generally drive around on the street with the party pully on. In fact I just realized I can go from my 3.05" pulley to my 3.700" pulley without changing belts. It's much nicer to drive on the street with the big pully and puts less wear and tear on everything. I could also set up a table that limits the boost to 10psi if I'm not in race mode, I have plenty of options to prevent that from happening.

I would probably just use the "boost cut" wire that goes to the Smoothboost PWM controller, that would pop the bypass fully open and make it clear that I had a problem. It's already wired into the Dominator, so is the "scramble" wire.

 

[r3dd0g]

Same for me, but how deep you are in the light affects your reaction time and you could go red, and occasionally if you haven't used your Tbrake for a while it may roll a tad when you release the brake pedal so the first pass of the day I always apply the Tbrake before I stage to prime the circuit, release brake pedal as a check, then release Tbrake, then stage.

I always hold the foot brake until I'm on the 2 step, then I let off. I haven't had it move on me and that's what the instructions on my trans brake said to do.

 

[r3dd0g]

The Shop Truck helped load it's old engine (goodwrench 350) that we sold to another Chevy guy.