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water for fuel

Water injection in certain high performance engines is nothing new, but the it is a very, very small mist of water and is not used as a fuel by any means or to increase fuel economy.

To the best of my knowledge there is no way to directly use water for fuel. I did not look at any of the links but the only halfway practical way to use water as a "fuel" is if you are extracting the hydrogen out of it by means of electricity (a guy at work has a set he heats his garage with at home.......but that's requires a lot less energy then powering a car). The downsides are the amount of water you would need to store in the car to make the performance and range similiar to a gas car, and you need electric power from some source to go through the process.

For fuel additives, all I will say that I work for an independent automotive testing facility and are constantly doing SAE, TMC, and other standards for measuring fuel economy. Let's just say I hear similiar claims all of the time of this amazing increase in fuel economy by a simply additive. If somebody could prove even a consistent 3% improvement they would be rich. 3% may not sound like much, but just think of the big trucking companies that are spending millions of $$ per year on fuel.
 
Most of you are confused. Not all of you . There is a big difference between water injection and turning the water back into a gaseous state for combustion. I am a Jet engine Mechanic by trade and I know all about water injection and why the Military no longer uses those type of Jet engines. I've seen it work and I believe with some refining, it is a viable option. My friend is working on this constantly to make it worth while. I am by no means saying it is ready to go to the production line, it is probally a few years down the road but some R&D and some one not willing to sell out to the big oil companys and it will work. Check out the patents that were bought up by Mr Big Oil over the years.
 
Crap, I had this all typed out and my login timed out. Here goes again....

Water has exactly three uses in automobiles - no more:

  1. in a 50/50 mix (or there abouts) with antifreeze as coolant
  2. as the primary ingredient in windshield washer fluid
  3. for water injection to cool the intake charge in some high performance applications (especially turbo or super charged ones)
WATER DOES NOT BURN!!! Water is a by-product of combustion. You cannot combine water and oxygen and get heat out. It is not possible. Water injection systems cool the intake charge by using the heat in the air to evaporate the water. Cooler intake charges may enable a very slight increase in efficiency in turbo or supercharged applications with high intake temperatures, but not enough to bother keeping your water tank full in a street car.


As for using water as a source of hydrogen in an on-board electrolysis system; that doesn't work either. The following is directly out of Wikipedia (link):


“Electrolysis of water

Main article: Electrolysis of water

One important use of electrolysis of water is to produce hydrogen.

2H2O(l) → 2H2(g) + O2(g)

This has been suggested as a way of shifting society toward using hydrogen as an energy carrier for powering electric motors and internal combustion engines. (See hydrogen economy.)
Electrolysis of water can be observed by passing direct current from a battery or other DC power supply through a cup of water (in practice a salt water solution increases the reaction intensity making it easier to observe). Using platinum electrodes, hydrogen gas will be seen to bubble up at the cathode, and oxygen will bubble at the anode. If other metals are used as the anode, there is a chance that the oxygen will react with the anode instead of being released as a gas, or that the anode will dissolve. For example, using iron electrodes in a sodium chloride solution electrolyte, iron oxides will be produced at the anode. With zinc electrodes in a sodium chloride electrolyte, the anode will dissolve, producing zinc ions (Zn++) in the solution, and no oxygen will be formed. When producing large quantities of hydrogen, the use of reactive metal electrodes can significantly contaminate the electrolytic cell - which is why iron electrodes are not usually used for commercial electrolysis.
The energy efficiency of water electrolysis varies widely. The efficiency is a measure of what fraction of electrical energy used is actually contained within the hydrogen. Some of the electrical energy is converted to heat, a useless by-product. Some reports quote efficiencies between 50% and 70%[1] This efficiency is based on the Lower Heating Value of Hydrogen. The Lower Heating Value of Hydrogen is total thermal energy released when hydrogen is combusted minus the latent heat of vaporisation of the water. This does not represent the total amount of energy within the hydrogen, hence the efficiency is lower than a more strict definition. Other reports quote the theoretical maximum efficiency of electrolysis as being between 80% and 94%.[2]. The theoretical maximum considers the total amount of energy absorbed by both the hydrogen and oxygen. These values refer only to the efficiency of converting electrical energy into hydrogen's chemical energy. The energy lost in generating the electricity is not included. For instance, when considering a power plant that converts the heat of nuclear reactions into hydrogen via electrolysis, the total efficiency is more likely to be between 25% and 40%.[3]
About four percent of hydrogen gas produced worldwide is created by electrolysis, and normally used onsite. Hydrogen is used for the creation of ammonia for fertilizer via the Haber process, and converting heavy petroleum sources to lighter fractions via hydrocracking.”



Think of it in these terms. Suppose you had a HUGE alternator. The alternator requires 100 horsepower to turn. Nothing is 100% efficient per the first and second laws of thermodynamics. Assume a generous 95% efficiency for your alternator. You have now converted 100 horsepower at the crank into 95 electrical horsepower. That is about 5900 amps at 12 volts. You wouldn't actually use 12 volts because of the enormous I^2xR losses, but that is another story.

Now suppose you could get the maximum theoretical electrolysis efficiency of 94% (you can't get that high, more likely 25-40% per the Wiki). You have now converted 95 electrical horsepower into 89.3 potential chemical horsepower (95 x 0.94).

Now you can burn your hydrogen. But wait there's more. The best you can hope for with an internal combustion engine is about 25% efficiency. So now you can convert your 89.3 potential chemical horsepower into 22.3 horsepower at the crank (89.3 x 0.25). That is a loss of 77.7 horsepower and that was being generous, more likely you would loose 90 horsepower or so! There is no possible way to come out ahead with that setup.

Electrolysis has a place in stationary applications, but it does not makes sense on board vehicles.

Flame on!
 
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4by4bygod - By no means am I against the technology, and I sincerely hope we can make it work effieciently. And I think I may need to pick up some additive for the Blazer.

As to the original intent of this thread, I believe that it is possible, it just isn't there yet. When a conversion can be made that will allow me to run the Blazer on a clean fuel, like hydrogen, and get decent mileage I will jump all over it. Right now, the technology to produce highly effiecient electrolysis, or some other process, to produce enough hydrogen to run my vehicle without power loss, is just not ready. I hope within the next 5 - 10 years that it will improve, but right now it just isn't ready for primetime.
 
I have to mention, also, that there are other ways to save fuel, as well. During my years as a truck driver, I would usually shut the truck off overnight if the weather was decent. I'd still run it if I needed heating or cooling, but there are truck stops offering onsite heat/air/comm units, and there are a number of onboard generators that use considerably less fuel than the truck's engine.
This may not mean a heck of a lot to us as Blazer owners, directly, but it does illustrate that there are all sorts of ways to save fuel, whether intuitive or not.

I'll note, just in case, that I'm well aware of the difference between HHO and water injection, being an aircraft mechanic. I was merely mentioning that the practice did exist. The water was not a fuel in any sense, as has been explained.
HHO is its own subject, and I eagerly await objective testing and some real proof that it works. If so, I'll jump on board. Until then, I'll just keep my eyes and ears open.
 
I am very glad to see someone taking the SANE approach and looking at the energy balance, but I think you are missing a step. Your "89.3 potential chemical horsepower" is the amount of power you get back from converting the HOH back to H2O. What we need is the amount of stored energy in the Hydrogen and Oxygen gas that is released when those gases are burned. Isn't this different?

If these products are effective, how can the engine run properly without retuning? My guess is that they do so little that the engine is still OK, but it's possible that even with a lot of HOH the stoich ratio doesn't change much.
 
That is how the electrolysis efficiency is defined on Wikipedia. The theoretical best you can do is to get enough hydrogen back from electrolysis that the energy content of the hydrogen (in a 100% efficient burn) would be 94% of the energy you put in.
 
Crap, I had this all typed out and my login timed out. Here goes again....

Water has exactly three uses in automobiles - no more:

  1. in a 50/50 mix (or there abouts) with antifreeze as coolant
  2. as the primary ingredient in windshield washer fluid
  3. for water injection to cool the intake charge in some high performance applications (especially turbo or super charged ones)
WATER DOES NOT BURN!!! Water is a by-product of combustion. You cannot combine water and oxygen and get heat out. It is not possible. Water injection systems cool the intake charge by using the heat in the air to evaporate the water. Cooler intake charges may enable a very slight increase in efficiency in turbo or supercharged applications with high intake temperatures, but not enough to bother keeping your water tank full in a street car.


As for using water as a source of hydrogen in an on-board electrolysis system; that doesn't work either. The following is directly out of Wikipedia (link):


“Electrolysis of water

Main article: Electrolysis of water

One important use of electrolysis of water is to produce hydrogen.

2H2O(l) → 2H2(g) + O2(g)

This has been suggested as a way of shifting society toward using hydrogen as an energy carrier for powering electric motors and internal combustion engines. (See hydrogen economy.)
Electrolysis of water can be observed by passing direct current from a battery or other DC power supply through a cup of water (in practice a salt water solution increases the reaction intensity making it easier to observe). Using platinum electrodes, hydrogen gas will be seen to bubble up at the cathode, and oxygen will bubble at the anode. If other metals are used as the anode, there is a chance that the oxygen will react with the anode instead of being released as a gas, or that the anode will dissolve. For example, using iron electrodes in a sodium chloride solution electrolyte, iron oxides will be produced at the anode. With zinc electrodes in a sodium chloride electrolyte, the anode will dissolve, producing zinc ions (Zn++) in the solution, and no oxygen will be formed. When producing large quantities of hydrogen, the use of reactive metal electrodes can significantly contaminate the electrolytic cell - which is why iron electrodes are not usually used for commercial electrolysis.
The energy efficiency of water electrolysis varies widely. The efficiency is a measure of what fraction of electrical energy used is actually contained within the hydrogen. Some of the electrical energy is converted to heat, a useless by-product. Some reports quote efficiencies between 50% and 70%[1] This efficiency is based on the Lower Heating Value of Hydrogen. The Lower Heating Value of Hydrogen is total thermal energy released when hydrogen is combusted minus the latent heat of vaporisation of the water. This does not represent the total amount of energy within the hydrogen, hence the efficiency is lower than a more strict definition. Other reports quote the theoretical maximum efficiency of electrolysis as being between 80% and 94%.[2]. The theoretical maximum considers the total amount of energy absorbed by both the hydrogen and oxygen. These values refer only to the efficiency of converting electrical energy into hydrogen's chemical energy. The energy lost in generating the electricity is not included. For instance, when considering a power plant that converts the heat of nuclear reactions into hydrogen via electrolysis, the total efficiency is more likely to be between 25% and 40%.[3]
About four percent of hydrogen gas produced worldwide is created by electrolysis, and normally used onsite. Hydrogen is used for the creation of ammonia for fertilizer via the Haber process, and converting heavy petroleum sources to lighter fractions via hydrocracking.”



Think of it in these terms. Suppose you had a HUGE alternator. The alternator requires 100 horsepower to turn. Nothing is 100% efficient per the first and second laws of thermodynamics. Assume a generous 95% efficiency for your alternator. You have now converted 100 horsepower at the crank into 95 electrical horsepower. That is about 5900 amps at 12 volts. You wouldn't actually use 12 volts because of the enormous I^2xR losses, but that is another story.

Now suppose you could get the maximum theoretical electrolysis efficiency of 94% (you can't get that high, more likely 25-40% per the Wiki). You have now converted 95 electrical horsepower into 89.3 potential chemical horsepower (95 x 0.94).

Now you can burn your hydrogen. But wait there's more. The best you can hope for with an internal combustion engine is about 25% efficiency. So now you can convert your 89.3 potential chemical horsepower into 22.3 horsepower at the crank (89.3 x 0.25). That is a loss of 77.7 horsepower and that was being generous, more likely you would loose 90 horsepower or so! There is no possible way to come out ahead with that setup.

Electrolysis has a place in stationary applications, but it does not makes sense on board vehicles.

Flame on!
How long have you lived in Kentucky? You probally still believe the North and the South are still at war. Hey Dumba$$, what is water? Gee, it's Hydrogen and Oxygen, Gee stupid, they both burn !!!!!! GET A GRIP ON YOUR NARROW MINDED,HILLBILLY A$$ AND LOOK TO WHAT COULD BE POSSIBLE. You are not as near as smart as you tell your wife you are!!!
 
All I've got to say is that it's obvious you didn't read his post, and you need to tone down the rhetoric just a touch. No one insulted YOUR intelligence or background, I suggest you rethink your approach here.
 
Water is not reactive. Its composition by itself is. When formed, the bond (unlike hydrocarbon bonds) dont release energy when split.

Can you run a car on water? No.

Can you run it on the components that make up water? Yes.

Is it realistic? Sure, a fusion reactor would make good use of splitting the atoms of water, and making energy, but....

Its simple for the technology at hand. It takes energy to distill. Unless your standing by the fact that distilling hydrogen and oxygen out of water, and then burning the two components, yields more energy than the amount that was used, I don't really see how this can work.

If it did work, I would have made reactors running this technology and just use it in stand alone generators and sell energy back to the electric company. Cars are small potatoes.
 
How long have you lived in Kentucky? You probally still believe the North and the South are still at war. Hey Dumba$$, what is water? Gee, it's Hydrogen and Oxygen, Gee stupid, they both burn !!!!!! GET A GRIP ON YOUR NARROW MINDED,HILLBILLY A$$ AND LOOK TO WHAT COULD BE POSSIBLE. You are not as near as smart as you tell your wife you are!!!
They're apparently breeding some prize-winning narrow minded hillbillies in Wisconsin these days!:DMaybe your reading comprehension skills need a little work.
 
I think all these Ideas are like "Miracle Tonic" of the old days. Don't you think that the Manufactors would put these things on the vehicles at the factory if they worked? With the highest MPG vehicle battles going on, that is what i would do?? Like that dam tornado thingy?? for what it says it does why wouldn't they just put it in every vehicle? Can't be more than 2 dollars worth of pot metal... That is all.

Josh
 
I have plans for a machine that generates unlimited FREE power using only magnets.

Just PayPal me $100 and I will send anyone who wants it a copy :deal:
jerkit.gif


I also have the plans for making an engine run on water. It uses magnets too :p: :haha:
 
That is how the electrolysis efficiency is defined on Wikipedia. The theoretical best you can do is to get enough hydrogen back from electrolysis that the energy content of the hydrogen (in a 100% efficient burn) would be 94% of the energy you put in.


There are other ways of breaking H2O apart. One example, by no means cost effective, is to heat up titanium. The hot titanium will strip the oxygen away from the hydrogen and can produce a nice explosion if you aren’t careful. It takes less power to heat the titanium than can be produced by the liberated hydrogen. Of course the titanium is junk afterward and expensive to replace. Other materials may have the same abilities that are more cost effective. I have also heard you can break H20 apart by using sound at the proper resonating frequency. Don’t know much more about it but it sounds feasible.

I also want to mention that it was impossible for a bumblebee to fly, a car would never break 200mph in the ¼ mile and you can’t travel faster then the speed of sound at least according to physicists a few decades ago.
 
There are other ways of breaking H2O apart. One example, by no means cost effective, is to heat up titanium. The hot titanium will strip the oxygen away from the hydrogen and can produce a nice explosion if you aren’t careful. It takes less power to heat the titanium than can be produced by the liberated hydrogen. Of course the titanium is junk afterward and expensive to replace. Other materials may have the same abilities that are more cost effective. I have also heard you can break H20 apart by using sound at the proper resonating frequency. Don’t know much more about it but it sounds feasible.

I also want to mention that it was impossible for a bumblebee to fly, a car would never break 200mph in the ¼ mile and you can’t travel faster then the speed of sound at least according to physicists a few decades ago.
I have seen the ultrasonic process, and it is still pretty high energy costs. Granted, that could be the breakthrough that allows us to have water in the tank and run off hydrogen, but again it takes time.

BGKYK5 was not saying it is impossible, he is saying that current technology doesn't produce enough hydrogen to be able to not require a separate tank of hydrogen. You lose some energy, either through heat or other processes, that prevents the system from being 100% efficient. Technology may well come along and prove that it can be done, but nobody has come up with anything yet.

The conservation of energy is pretty impossible to beat, but there may be some breakthrough that will allow a true 100% efficient system to come about. I doubt it, but there is virtually no chance that you can get more energy out of system than is put in.
 
http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forums...rogen-fuel-better-gas-milage-performance.html

Lot's of drama here in this thread, there are some there that are pretty livid against using hydrogen. Fast forward to around post 180, that's where some real knowledge comes out, especially post 221 by turbine guy, he's got some real useful info.
I never saw the end of your thread in the Lounge, but how much of a gain did you have from your system? I recognize that it is probably still being tuned, but I am curious. Guess I will have to drive up there and beat it out of you.:wink1:

I agree that running off of pure water isn't feasable at this point, but that HHO enrichment might help. Just not sure how much.
 
http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forums...rogen-fuel-better-gas-milage-performance.html

Lot's of drama here in this thread, there are some there that are pretty livid against using hydrogen. Fast forward to around post 180, that's where some real knowledge comes out, especially post 221 by turbine guy, he's got some real useful info.

Not really a "problem" with that information, but from an environmental standpoint, even if the hydrogen that is injected can be "made" somewhere (which I am assuming is the idea, since it's not efficient to do so on a vehicle) the making of the hydrogen itself still can't provide more power than it took to get that hydrogen...or else on board hydrogen generation in a closed loop system would be possible, and the power plants themselves would be powered by it.

This is where the environmentalists ignore hydrogen and electric car problems...you need to get that energy external of the car, so you are shifting the burden to power generation facilities, which just changes the source of pollution. The power generation facilities may be more efficient than a car, but thats not something I know for a fact.
 
I never saw the end of your thread in the Lounge, but how much of a gain did you have from your system? I recognize that it is probably still being tuned, but I am curious. Guess I will have to drive up there and beat it out of you.:wink1:
I am currently getting about 20 mpg's from my Yukon, and there is no tuning to really be done, I just disconnected the battery over night to reset the computers, turned the ignotion on for 5 minutes to let the hydrogen build, then cranked away (I let it sit to let the computer compensate for the hydrogen.)

Oh, and if you want to beat it out of me, better hurry, I'm leaving for Alaska at 3 this afternoon.
 
How long have you lived in Kentucky? You probally still believe the North and the South are still at war. Hey Dumba$$, what is water? Gee, it's Hydrogen and Oxygen, Gee stupid, they both burn !!!!!! GET A GRIP ON YOUR NARROW MINDED,HILLBILLY A$$ AND LOOK TO WHAT COULD BE POSSIBLE. You are not as near as smart as you tell your wife you are!!!

I have lived in Kentucky for about two and a half years. Before that I lived in Michigan for 5 years, and before that I lived in California. They tell me that the civil war is over, but we are still at war with Mexico, right?

Whatever you do, don't eat salt. It is made from Sodium (a metal that reacts exothermally with water) and Chlorine (a gas which is toxic). You could get a nasty burn in your mouth and then die. :yikes:

Also, to be technically correct, oxygen does not burn. It is not a fuel, it is an oxidant that promotes combustion with other fuels.
 

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