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What happened to the 2 strokes?

Most larger 2 strokes have a crank case that holds oil now, and with direct injection dont polute nearly as much as they used to. That article is either just old, or just based on chainsaws and weed-eaters.
 
Bobby, how much do those beasts weigh? Remember a dirtbikes under 200 lbs. THose are what? More then that.

I hate the fact the are phasing out 2 AND 4 stroke bikes in CA. 2003 and newer are all redsticker along with the 2004 and newer 4 strokes.

Did you know that a cargo ship going cross county puts out more emissions then all the 2 stroke dirtbikes put together, EVER!!
 
2 strokes don't have a good high end. Automotive companys / big rig companys will not put 2 strokes in there trucks because of that. Since there is almost no high end your MPG would hurt at high RPMs. The only good thing 2 strokes are good for is racing and pulling heavy loads at low speeds.

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Sorry to bust your bubble...but I might not know a lot about vehicels....but I know my dirtbikes/fourwheelers.....and if anything.....2 strokes dominate at high end. Low end, a.k.a "take off" blows. The whole objective of a two stroke is to keep the rpm's at least 8 grand, know your "powerband" and hold on. four stroke dominate at take off...and low-mid range. Maybe you just got 4/2 strokes mixed up.

-Grasso.
 
And it is my understanding that the 2 cycle shines in high rpm situations simply due to it's design. But when I put a 250cc 2 stroke 4 wheeler next to a equal sized 4 stroke with the same gearing and hook them up to a load...well you have to rev the piss out of the 2 stroke to pull the load, 4 stroke made power from idle. 2 stroke didn't really make power until you hit the power band, then hold on to your ass.
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I call bull on that one. I had on 02' Yamaha Blaster 200cc two stroke fouwheeler....stock I could spank a 350cc Yamaha Warrior. When I got done with it I had an aluminum air box, K&N filter, Boyeseen reeds, full FMF exhaust, Maxxis Razor tires...front and rear, Port and polished head....with a Vito's 240cc big bore kit, 3'' stretched swing arm, and +2" a-arms....once that was done I could hang with a stock Yamaha Raptor 660cc, and could put a Yamaha Banshee 350cc in the ground.
Case-closed, cc for cc 2 stokes will win.

-Grasso
 
My '99 yz 125 would leave my buddies 2002 klx 300 in the dust off the start and everywhere else... you have to know how to ride one before you say they don't pull from the start... carmicael and reed both ride 250's and get holeshots in a field full of 450's all most evertime.

It seems there are some very "old" views on this post... for some reason a few of you think 2 strokes HAVE to have oil in the gas which is not the case. My 1983 DS 80 had oil injection. That means you pour oil into an oil tank and it hardly uses any oil. The "NEW" two stroke's are whooping the fours everywhere you look. motorcross, outboards, etc. They are constantly changing them to keep them around.

As far as the outboards go, evinrude has been selling those things like crazy...
the 2 stroke e-tech(evinrude) left all of the 4 strokes behind off the start and never looked back... it actually produces more tq than the four strokes, doesn't need a break in peroid and if you pay 500 bucks they cover your motor for 7 years. 2 strokes last, just not in dirtbikes.

I'll say this again incase you guys missed it the first time....

THE ENVINRUDE 2 STROKE OUTBOARD BURNS 32 TIMES CLEANER THAN THE CLEANEST FOUR STROKE. 74 TIMES CLEANER THAN THE 3RD CLEANEST FOUR STROKE.

they strapped a 225 HP yamaha four stroke and a 225 HP evinrude e-tech 2 stroke on a big ass ocean fishing boat then when they were clear of the harbor he took the 2 stroke out of the water and put the yamaha at full throttle... it wouldn't even get up on plane. Then he put the e-tech 2 stroke in the water and took the yamaha out. the 2 stroke pulled it up on plane all the way up to 25 mph. the four stroke topped out at 13 mph. I know it wasn't camera tricks because i watched his hand on the throttle.

They figured it out and now i would bet money that becuase of that we will be seeing 2 strokes popping up all over the place.
 
Starting a detroit after setting the rack is nerve wracking........

2 strokes are a dying technology because of noise and the enviro factor, some are dirty and some aren't but all are thought to be big polluters.
George
 
Here's one for Ya!
My Dad bought one of those new Sthil 4 stroke weedeaters. IT RUNS ON 50:1 2 STROKE MIX :confused: :crazy: :confused: :crazy:
It's a guttless turd and you can only use trimmer line on it. We tried useing brush cutting blades on it but it just boggs it down big time. Not to mention it cost a lot more than the 2 stroke and weighs more.
 
It seems there are some very "old" views on this post... for some reason a few of you think 2 strokes HAVE to have oil in the gas which is not the case. My 1983 DS 80 had oil injection. That means you pour oil into an oil tank and it hardly uses any oil.
Click to expand...
My 2003 Polaris 800 has oil injection. It injects the oil into the motor and it is still burned with the gas. You will never be able to get away without the oil with a two stroke. Oil produces smoke. My 2003 engine smokes like hell when it's cold.
 
K5MONSTERCHEV said:
Bobby, how much do those beasts weigh? Remember a dirtbikes under 200 lbs. THose are what? More then that.

!!
Click to expand...
My sled is the lightest moutain sled in it's size ever. It tips the scales at 488lbs dry. Mine weighs about 10lbs less with my MBRP can. Snowmobiles are geared differently also. They have a crazy, belt drive with dual clutches. They may weigh twice what a dirt bike weighs but they have three times the power and a MUCh better tranny. Most late snowmobiles are capable of 100MPH+. I've had my 800 up to 90mph, but got off the throttle. I had my old 580EFI up to 105 MPH in Oregon a few years back. :grin:
 
well i don't know what the hell evinrude did but it burns cleaner than a four stroke... CARB even recognized it. It doesn't smoke. Snow mobiles are a little different. I am sure the oil injection is different from your jet ski on a track.

They may weigh twice what a dirt bike weighs but they have three times the power and a MUCh better tranny. Most late snowmobiles are capable of 100MPH+. I've had my 800 up to 90mph, but got off the throttle. I had my old 580EFI up to 105 MPH in Oregon a few years back.
Click to expand...

450's will do over 110 out of the box.

By the way... about your comment on only having 150 hp. thats pretty damn good. the pro's skiis are up over 200 with MAD torque. the hp numbers may not be that impressive to you, but keep in mind that the street bikes running 1300 cc's only produce about 200 hp with a lot less tq than a jet ski or snowmobile motor. I don't know much about snowmobiles but my uncles jet ski had 2 cylinders and it was a 750.... the street bikes run 4 cylinders with dual overhead cams and can barely squeeze out more than a snowmobile and the bikes have a lot less low end grunt than a big 2 stroke. Oh yeah... i almost forgot to tell you the old 500 cc 2 stroke street bikes made over 150 hp. I think your motor was built a little different... probably more for tq.
 
dirtwarrior17 said:
My '99 yz 125 would leave my buddies 2002 klx 300 in the dust off the start and everywhere else... you have to know how to ride one before you say they don't pull from the start... carmicael and reed both ride 250's and get holeshots in a field full of 450's all most evertime.

It seems there are some very "old" views on this post... for some reason a few of you think 2 strokes HAVE to have oil in the gas which is not the case. My 1983 DS 80 had oil injection. That means you pour oil into an oil tank and it hardly uses any oil. The "NEW" two stroke's are whooping the fours everywhere you look. motorcross, outboards, etc. They are constantly changing them to keep them around.

As far as the outboards go, evinrude has been selling those things like crazy...
the 2 stroke e-tech(evinrude) left all of the 4 strokes behind off the start and never looked back... it actually produces more tq than the four strokes, doesn't need a break in peroid and if you pay 500 bucks they cover your motor for 7 years. 2 strokes last, just not in dirtbikes.

I'll say this again incase you guys missed it the first time....

THE ENVINRUDE 2 STROKE OUTBOARD BURNS 32 TIMES CLEANER THAN THE CLEANEST FOUR STROKE. 74 TIMES CLEANER THAN THE 3RD CLEANEST FOUR STROKE.

they strapped a 225 HP yamaha four stroke and a 225 HP evinrude e-tech 2 stroke on a big ass ocean fishing boat then when they were clear of the harbor he took the 2 stroke out of the water and put the yamaha at full throttle... it wouldn't even get up on plane. Then he put the e-tech 2 stroke in the water and took the yamaha out. the 2 stroke pulled it up on plane all the way up to 25 mph. the four stroke topped out at 13 mph. I know it wasn't camera tricks because i watched his hand on the throttle.

They figured it out and now i would bet money that becuase of that we will be seeing 2 strokes popping up all over the place.
Click to expand...


I agree. I think the new Evinrude direct injected two strokes are the best performing outboards on the market.
 
I call bull on that one. I had on 02' Yamaha Blaster 200cc two stroke fouwheeler....stock I could spank a 350cc Yamaha Warrior. When I got done with it I had an aluminum air box said:
Translation: I outran a bigger 4 stroke before. Now let me tell you ALL about my super cool modded out blaster so you will all know how wonderful I am and that I don't need to provide any scientific theories or good data.
Now that you know how cool my fourwheeler is I now proclaim 2 stroke engines the winner case closed.
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There is no way I would put my 450 four stroke up against any two stroke in a race for speed. I use my four wheeler to drag trees and trailers full of rock and dirt up hills and through mud. A two stroke will not lug around and do real work like a four stroke will, not to mention it would be worn out quickly doing that kind of work. So whose the winner? It depends on what your needs are. You need to zip along trails at speed with a light machine go two stroke, you need to creep over obstacles and pull heavy loads then four strokes are better suited.

I would gladly take an efficient clean two stroke in my commuter car providing they build the engine heavy enough to last as long as a four stroke. Im sure it would be a fun zippy little ride, but for my trucks Ill take a lower revving low speed torque producing, long lasting four stroke.

Think about this.... A two stroke makes power on every revolution of the crank shaft. A four stroke makes power on every other revolution. Using this basic logic then a two stroke should make twice as much power as a four stroke of equal displacement. Thusly a 200 cc two stroke SHOULD be able to beat any equal four stroke up to 400 cc. (they don't because they are not as efficient as four strokes)
I know that a lot of factors come in to play here such as induction and engine design and characteristics but I think you get my point. I wouldn't be bragging about how my two stroke beat a four stroke that was only half again bigger than my two stroke.
Click to expand...
 
dirtwarrior17 said:
well i don't know what the hell evinrude did but it burns cleaner than a four stroke... CARB even recognized it. It doesn't smoke. Snow mobiles are a little different. I am sure the oil injection is different from your jet ski on a track.
Click to expand...

The problem is, that is comparing outboard motors to outboard motors. Compare a cruise ships diesel engine(assuming thats what they use) to the emissions of a light duty or auto diesel emissions is going to make the auto look much more environmentally efficient. However, the emissions requirements are as different as the application.

Cars are using catalytic converters because they have to. Start trying to make a 2 stroke meet *automotive* emissions standards. Good luck.

In an exact same application, it is fair and easy to compare a 2 and 4 stroke. However, comparing an outboard motor to a car 4 stroke application just doesn't fly.

I'm not going off topic here, the thread started about why there are no 2 strokes on the street.
 
dirtwarrior17 said:
I am sure the oil injection is different from your jet ski on a track.



.
Click to expand...
No offence but thats a dumb statement. A Jet ski and snowmobile are two completely different things. A sled is not a jet ski with a track added to it.

I've ridden almost every type of recreational vehicle. Dirt bikes, Jet skis,and ATV's are all fun but don't come close to matching what deep mountain snowmobiling is like with today's top badass sleds. About anything that comes close is 4wheeling with a monster motor and big tires.......but not that close.

I snowmobile, then I do everything else.....
 
rjfguitar said:
Dirt bikes, Jet skis,and ATV's are all fun but don't come close to matching what deep mountain snowmobiling is like with today's top badass sleds. About anything that comes close is 4wheeling with a monster motor and big tires.......but not that close.
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Amen, Cooke City is my Mecca.
 
I'll add my .02 cents here.............
Suzuki builds all of Arctic Cats sled engines, Polaris builds some of theirs and Fuji heavy Industries builds the rest, Bombardier builds for Ski-doo and Sea-doo. Those 3 manufacturers know that the 2 stroke engine is doomed. They are also doing everything in their power to extend that deadline so they can continue to build what the customer wants.

To me its simple, the green weannies that don't want me on public lands in any form, don't want 2 stroke bikes sleds or ski's. At this point they are only tolerating the 4 strokes.....

Someone mentioned cruise ships and cargo ships, don't forget locomotives, the railroads are really dragging their feet on cleanning up their act. Rant off

George
 
Yes, simple fact is, it's easier to ban stuff based on environmental concerns (at the moment) so you just go after them based on emissions. Trains and ships aren't as "in your face" as dirtbikes, personal watercraft, or snowmobiles, thus, not the "outcry" from their emissions.

It's not like emissions requirements (nor ultra-environmentalists) will be satiated and no longer change once 2 strokes are gone.
 
Robert79K5 said:
Translation: I outran a bigger 4 stroke before. Now let me tell you ALL about my super cool modded out blaster so you will all know how wonderful I am and that I don't need to provide any scientific theories or good data.
Now that you know how cool my fourwheeler is I now proclaim 2 stroke engines the winner case closed.
[/Translation off]

There is no way I would put my 450 four stroke up against any two stroke in a race for speed. I use my four wheeler to drag trees and trailers full of rock and dirt up hills and through mud. A two stroke will not lug around and do real work like a four stroke will, not to mention it would be worn out quickly doing that kind of work. So whose the winner? It depends on what your needs are. You need to zip along trails at speed with a light machine go two stroke, you need to creep over obstacles and pull heavy loads then four strokes are better suited.

I would gladly take an efficient clean two stroke in my commuter car providing they build the engine heavy enough to last as long as a four stroke. Im sure it would be a fun zippy little ride, but for my trucks Ill take a lower revving low speed torque producing, long lasting four stroke.

Think about this.... A two stroke makes power on every revolution of the crank shaft. A four stroke makes power on every other revolution. Using this basic logic then a two stroke should make twice as much power as a four stroke of equal displacement. Thusly a 200 cc two stroke SHOULD be able to beat any equal four stroke up to 400 cc. (they don't because they are not as efficient as four strokes)
I know that a lot of factors come in to play here such as induction and engine design and characteristics but I think you get my point. I wouldn't be bragging about how my two stroke beat a four stroke that was only half again bigger than my two stroke.
Click to expand...


uh you seem to be forgetting the two strokes your comparing your quad to are twice as small... ride a 400cc two stroke and then compare the tq...

certain two strokes will beat four strokes that are OVER twice their size... for example my 125 vz a 300.


Rjf..... you missed the point.... i was talking about the motor's not the whole concept of jetskiing and snomobiling... the motors are almost identical.



To you guys who think the two strokes are doomed I have to respectfully disagree :D ... have you noticed that all the two strokes you say pollute too much are carbed? Evinrude used a very advanced EFI system to make a two stroke cleaner and more powerfull than all the other four strokes on the market... its the way of the future. you see EFI quads popping up... its only a matter of time until dirtbikes(especially two strokes) become efi equipped. Because of evinrudes motors two stroke will be around for a long time to come its just too soon to see any results... they only released the e-tech about 5 months ago.
 
Marine emissions regulations are much more lax than automotive regulations. Also, they did not specify which component of its emissions were reduced 64% (or whatever they claim, you changed your numbers a few times in your posts, so I am not sure). I think Evinrudes claims are very vague and most likely skewed in a way that makes their product look better. Two stroke diesels are dirty running as can be and the fuel economy is terrible, thus they will never be used again.

Two strokes should have been gone long ago IMO.
 
I believe that part of the problem for the green weenies is one of perception...whats real and whats precieved as real. What pollutes and which one doesn't, and remember noise is a pollution also.

Most of my business comes from Arctic Cat , Polaris Industries, and Bombardier Rec Products, I'm friends with some of the test riders at Cat and they tell me that most of the devolpment work is done with the 4 stroke in mind. Especially for the 4wheeler market because the 2 stroke 4wheeler market is shrinking (ask Cannondale about that). On sleds its easier to quiet down a 4 stroke than a 2 a stroke because it costs hp on them, and hp equals speed and thats what sells sleds. Slow sleds are either rentals or don't sell, a 500cc sled that won't go faster than 80mph with a 150lb rider gets bad reviews , and that equals bad sales. 4 stroke motors won't hit that goal, but 2 strokes do but it has a cost. Noise and worse fuel economy than a 4 stroke so the arguement is that they (the 2 strokes) are dirtier because more fuel burned means more emissions, or so the reasoning goes.

Because the powersports market doesn't have the regulations that the auto market has (no c.a.r.b) testing and marketing of that testing needs to be taken with a grain of salt as there are no standardized testing procedures like you have for cars.
George
 
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