K-5kid
Registered Member
if the block is cracked where the starter bolts up what can i do to fix it or do i have to get a new engine? can i just get the block welded if i find cracks.
CK5
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what is going on with my starter
- Thread starter K-5kid
- Start date
Maybe....
I have seen only a few motors with the "ears" broken on the block where the starter bolts go welded successfully,even then its a good possibility it might not last..blocks are cast iron with high nickel content,and dont like to be welded,and the welds are fairly brittle,even when done correctly with the proper welding rod..its not a common problem,but it does happen unfortunately..most motors I've seen welded didn't last...
I've found the best way to measure the clearance between flywheel and starter drive gear teeth is to not measure between the gear teeth--(as explained earlier,its hard to get the drive to engage the flywheel and then try to measure,you need four hands!--there is a small hole in the starter nose on the bottom you can put a small screwdriver in to force the bendix out into the flywheel,but its difficult to do,and measure the clearance at the same time..)
What I've done was follow the directions that came with a rebuilt starter--it said to measure between the SHAFT the starter drive slides on,and the OUTSIDE of the flywheel teeth--a 1/8 inch allen wrench or drill bit is the correct distance to be had there,I've used that method many times and the starters always sound good..its just a different way of measuring the clearance,and its MUCH easier than screwing around trying to hold the starter "engaged" and trying to measure between the gear teeth...its always worked for me...
Be aware many GM starters "look" the same,and will bolt on,but the noses are just slightly different enough that they wont work!--many times on the "straight across" bolt pattern starters,a buick 231 V6 starter finds its way onto a small block--and while it WILL start the motor,it will grind off the teeth some every time,no matter how perfectly its shimmed!...I see this a lot..later 305 and 350's have the nose "tilted" at a different angle too,may or may not work on older motors properly..
Also a caddy "staggered" bolt pattern starter will bolt on a chevy motor and work,but I have heard the caddy uses a weird tooth count flywheel,like 166 teeth instead of 168!--again,it WILL work--for awhile!--then you'll need a flywheel AND another starter!..
Might be best to start fresh with the correct starter listed for the application it belongs on--go by what the engine came in originally,not what vehicle its in now--most chevy's use the same starter,but not all!...and pray the rebuilt one's core was properly identified,I see lots of them that are wrong--too many people think all the "straight across" ones are all the same--ditto for the "staggered" ones.
.GM has a lot more starter noses than most mechanics realize...I tend to keep the starter that came with the motor if it was working good,and rebuild it myself with new brushes and bushings--or just keep the nose and swap it onto the next one..
I have seen only a few motors with the "ears" broken on the block where the starter bolts go welded successfully,even then its a good possibility it might not last..blocks are cast iron with high nickel content,and dont like to be welded,and the welds are fairly brittle,even when done correctly with the proper welding rod..its not a common problem,but it does happen unfortunately..most motors I've seen welded didn't last...
I've found the best way to measure the clearance between flywheel and starter drive gear teeth is to not measure between the gear teeth--(as explained earlier,its hard to get the drive to engage the flywheel and then try to measure,you need four hands!--there is a small hole in the starter nose on the bottom you can put a small screwdriver in to force the bendix out into the flywheel,but its difficult to do,and measure the clearance at the same time..)
What I've done was follow the directions that came with a rebuilt starter--it said to measure between the SHAFT the starter drive slides on,and the OUTSIDE of the flywheel teeth--a 1/8 inch allen wrench or drill bit is the correct distance to be had there,I've used that method many times and the starters always sound good..its just a different way of measuring the clearance,and its MUCH easier than screwing around trying to hold the starter "engaged" and trying to measure between the gear teeth...its always worked for me...
Be aware many GM starters "look" the same,and will bolt on,but the noses are just slightly different enough that they wont work!--many times on the "straight across" bolt pattern starters,a buick 231 V6 starter finds its way onto a small block--and while it WILL start the motor,it will grind off the teeth some every time,no matter how perfectly its shimmed!...I see this a lot..later 305 and 350's have the nose "tilted" at a different angle too,may or may not work on older motors properly..
Also a caddy "staggered" bolt pattern starter will bolt on a chevy motor and work,but I have heard the caddy uses a weird tooth count flywheel,like 166 teeth instead of 168!--again,it WILL work--for awhile!--then you'll need a flywheel AND another starter!..
Might be best to start fresh with the correct starter listed for the application it belongs on--go by what the engine came in originally,not what vehicle its in now--most chevy's use the same starter,but not all!...and pray the rebuilt one's core was properly identified,I see lots of them that are wrong--too many people think all the "straight across" ones are all the same--ditto for the "staggered" ones.
.GM has a lot more starter noses than most mechanics realize...I tend to keep the starter that came with the motor if it was working good,and rebuild it myself with new brushes and bushings--or just keep the nose and swap it onto the next one..
K-5kid
Registered Member
i just bought the metric version of the starter and it sounds better but now it grinds but dosnt bind on the fly wheel should i start the shim musical chairs again
More fun....
You can use the method I described to measure the clearance easier...
One snag though--I learned on some of the newer metric starters they use NO shims!--it says "NO SHIM" on the nose right behind the soleniod!---I have no clue why they did this??--and what the hell do you do if it DOES need shims,keep trying starters till you get one that fits right???
I think I'd shim it anyway!--better than pooching the flywheel!..
You can use the method I described to measure the clearance easier...
One snag though--I learned on some of the newer metric starters they use NO shims!--it says "NO SHIM" on the nose right behind the soleniod!---I have no clue why they did this??--and what the hell do you do if it DOES need shims,keep trying starters till you get one that fits right???
I think I'd shim it anyway!--better than pooching the flywheel!..
K-5kid
Registered Member
i think i might have it i shimmed the hell out of one side and so far so good but i just hope it works and if it comes back i am going to buy the nice stuff to fix it not the cheap $hit
K-5kid
Registered Member
wtf i had it working for a day i am about to give up and sell the truck i. i think it is walking how would i stop that. i am going to give up for a day or so then get back at it any and i mean any sugestion i will try
right bolts and brackets??
If you have a new or rebuilt starter,and adjusted it properly with the shims (IF needed--always try NO shims first!)--then the only other things I can suggest might be wrong is the bolts might not be the correct ones,or are bent--there is a bracket on the forward end of the starter (the end near the motor mount)that bolts to the block and the starter case,it often gets removed and never replaced,its critical on a diesel engine,gas engines use them too,but 95% of all GM cars and trucks I've worked on no longer had one,including most of my own trucks,and I had no starter problems...it DOES help to keep the starter planted firmly in place so it cant squirm around. though..GM put it there for a reason...
I think you might have other problems seeing you tried everything related to the starter....are you sure the flexplate isnt bent or warped,or has teeth stripped or missing?...another thing to check is how much end play you have in the crankshaft itself--grab the harmonic balancer or flexplate with both hands and pull in and out--any more than a few thousands of play is excessive,that can wreak havoc with the starter...and means your motor has a worn thrust surface on the rear main bearing--not good news...
Your sure it has good battery cables,a good battery and good grounds right??--any weakness there will make the starter act weird,like not wanting to stay engaged while cranking,slow cranking,jumping in and out of mesh with the flexplate,etc...If all this stuff checks out OK,I'm out of things to suggest...
If you have a new or rebuilt starter,and adjusted it properly with the shims (IF needed--always try NO shims first!)--then the only other things I can suggest might be wrong is the bolts might not be the correct ones,or are bent--there is a bracket on the forward end of the starter (the end near the motor mount)that bolts to the block and the starter case,it often gets removed and never replaced,its critical on a diesel engine,gas engines use them too,but 95% of all GM cars and trucks I've worked on no longer had one,including most of my own trucks,and I had no starter problems...it DOES help to keep the starter planted firmly in place so it cant squirm around. though..GM put it there for a reason...
I think you might have other problems seeing you tried everything related to the starter....are you sure the flexplate isnt bent or warped,or has teeth stripped or missing?...another thing to check is how much end play you have in the crankshaft itself--grab the harmonic balancer or flexplate with both hands and pull in and out--any more than a few thousands of play is excessive,that can wreak havoc with the starter...and means your motor has a worn thrust surface on the rear main bearing--not good news...
Your sure it has good battery cables,a good battery and good grounds right??--any weakness there will make the starter act weird,like not wanting to stay engaged while cranking,slow cranking,jumping in and out of mesh with the flexplate,etc...If all this stuff checks out OK,I'm out of things to suggest...
K-5kid
Registered Member
thanks man i think my cables are good but i will replave them this weekend any way (it cant hurt) but where can i find that bracket i wil try that. where on the block does it bolt to. it is a new flexplate and bolts but i will try to see if there is play in my crank thanks for the sugestions
K-5kid
Registered Member
so what if i got a starter brace could that keep my starter from walking on the block and from bouncing around
Lots of folks running starters without a brace for long periods of time and no problems. I'm one of them.
If you need a brace to keep the starter from walking around, I'd be looking at something else as a problem. A high compression or large displacement engine both make it harder on a starter, but for the "average" engine, you shouldn't chew up flywheels/starters because you don't have the starter brace.
Can't hurt, be real surprised if it fixes your problem though.
If you need a brace to keep the starter from walking around, I'd be looking at something else as a problem. A high compression or large displacement engine both make it harder on a starter, but for the "average" engine, you shouldn't chew up flywheels/starters because you don't have the starter brace.
Can't hurt, be real surprised if it fixes your problem though.
