Ft lbs and lb ft.
GET EM RIGHT PEOPLE
GET EM RIGHT PEOPLE
CK5
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What would you be looking for in an LS swap tutorial / video?
- Thread starter K30Blazer
- Start date
so, I am hearing that I need to focus on the LS motor swap for my NBSS, cause it make torks.
^^^^^yes
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And cuz Vortex motors are boss
ok, I have been side tracked and just got back from a baja trip but wanted to at least start to outline this and plan it out. Here is the rough drafts of the videos I have. I will post each section in its own comment so you can get an idea of how I am gonna break them down. Prob be between 3-5 videos.
Please rip these apart now. Rather get all the information correct now than get yelled at later.
Please rip these apart now. Rather get all the information correct now than get yelled at later.
1.) What motor. First and foremost. Semantics. The LS name refers to the aluminum block. LQ refers to the iron block. For sake of simplicity, I will refer to all as the LS motor, with the understanding that individual motors will be described by their coding. The most popular are going to be the LQ series of LS motors. Most commonly found in the truck bodies, the LQ come in LQ9 or LQ4. These were specifically developed to bridge the gap between the small blocks common to the truck market and the big block. And they did it remarkably well….
The Gen III LS motors are very well designed, maximized and efficient. A perfect example is the 2 bolt, vs 4 bolt main argument on traditional Gen I small blocks. The gen III LS comes with a 6 bolt main. Everything they learned from 50 years of mouse motors, they applied to the revolutionary jump to the gen III LS
LQ9 vs LQ4. LQ9 only built in Michigan vs LQ4 in Michigan and Mex. If that matters to you. Also the LQ9 bumps up compression with flat top pistons. Generally and commercially known as the Vortec MAX.
Both came with 317 aluminum cathedral style heads. A great flowing head that responds well to work. Don’t be persuaded into the “more popular” LM3 heads. While they do flow better, it is at the higher RPM where we are not as concerned. We are looking for low end grunt and torque, not top end flow.
LS valve springs are a good addition to these springs, with an increased spring rate that mates nicely with certain intakes we will talk about later.
The LM7 /LM4 the LM4 being an all aluminum is also another popular option at 5.3 size. These were popular as they were often cheaper than the LQ as they were more available, but that has faded recently as more LQ’s came on the market.
The LQ is also a popular option as being a iron block and truck engine it is designed with torque and strength in mind. Not a bad baseline for our trucks. The intake is also designed with torque in mind and with a 3 ton truck, the torque is what you should be focusing on not the HP.
You are gonna find LQ9’s in Cadillacs, Silverado SS and GMC High Output. The LQ4 can be found in anything from vans to Denali’s. Basically 2002- roughly 2007 on most models.
Can range from drive by wire to drive by throttle cable. If you do pickup DBW, make sure you are also getting the pedal, TAC (Throttle Actuator Controller) and harness.
The Gen III LS motors are very well designed, maximized and efficient. A perfect example is the 2 bolt, vs 4 bolt main argument on traditional Gen I small blocks. The gen III LS comes with a 6 bolt main. Everything they learned from 50 years of mouse motors, they applied to the revolutionary jump to the gen III LS
LQ9 vs LQ4. LQ9 only built in Michigan vs LQ4 in Michigan and Mex. If that matters to you. Also the LQ9 bumps up compression with flat top pistons. Generally and commercially known as the Vortec MAX.
Both came with 317 aluminum cathedral style heads. A great flowing head that responds well to work. Don’t be persuaded into the “more popular” LM3 heads. While they do flow better, it is at the higher RPM where we are not as concerned. We are looking for low end grunt and torque, not top end flow.
LS valve springs are a good addition to these springs, with an increased spring rate that mates nicely with certain intakes we will talk about later.
The LM7 /LM4 the LM4 being an all aluminum is also another popular option at 5.3 size. These were popular as they were often cheaper than the LQ as they were more available, but that has faded recently as more LQ’s came on the market.
The LQ is also a popular option as being a iron block and truck engine it is designed with torque and strength in mind. Not a bad baseline for our trucks. The intake is also designed with torque in mind and with a 3 ton truck, the torque is what you should be focusing on not the HP.
You are gonna find LQ9’s in Cadillacs, Silverado SS and GMC High Output. The LQ4 can be found in anything from vans to Denali’s. Basically 2002- roughly 2007 on most models.
Can range from drive by wire to drive by throttle cable. If you do pickup DBW, make sure you are also getting the pedal, TAC (Throttle Actuator Controller) and harness.
2.) Where to buy or find anywhere and everywhere. These motors were put into pretty much anything that GM built in the past 15 years. Depending on how brave you feel you can get them from every place from a junkyard to a engine supplier.
Pac Fab, Turnkey engines etc, will all sell you an engine ready to drop in with everything you need. You can also source takeouts from wrecked trucks that you can see the engine run before it is pulled.
Craigslist is also a great option. I found my engine on craigslist for $2500 with trans and everything. Although I was taking a gamble that it would work. Luckily it did
Ultra important. When you are purchasing from craigslist, junkyard etc here is a list of everything you should try and get. Some are critical some are just money savers and nice to have.
Often times, these are overlooked and later on they can add up and nickel and dime you when you are finishing the build. If they are missing then you can leverage on the price quite a bit.
Pac Fab, Turnkey engines etc, will all sell you an engine ready to drop in with everything you need. You can also source takeouts from wrecked trucks that you can see the engine run before it is pulled.
Craigslist is also a great option. I found my engine on craigslist for $2500 with trans and everything. Although I was taking a gamble that it would work. Luckily it did
Ultra important. When you are purchasing from craigslist, junkyard etc here is a list of everything you should try and get. Some are critical some are just money savers and nice to have.
- PCM and TAC module if DBW.
- Pedal Assembly if DBW
- Headers / manifolds
- Catalytic converters with O2 sensors
- wiring harness with ALL connectors (even if you don’t plan on using it)
- AC system (might as well)
- Air Intake / MAF (save yourself $100 for the MAF alone)
- if getting trans, make sure you are getting the TC adapter / Module and the Torque Converter
Often times, these are overlooked and later on they can add up and nickel and dime you when you are finishing the build. If they are missing then you can leverage on the price quite a bit.
3.) What trans. If you are swapping a K series, chances are you have a 700R4, SM465 or TH400 / 350
The three most common trans to run are the 4L65 / 4L80 or NV5000, but rest assured that pretty much any GM trans will bolt up. It may not use all the bell housing bolts, but it will work
NV4500 - 460 Lb Ft but it is clutch soooo….
4L65 - 670 lb Ft
4L80 - 880 lb ft
The 4L60/65 is for all intents and purposes a redesigned and engineered 700R4. This makes swapping it in very very simple. There might be some disagreement here but I feel the 4L60 and specifically 65 and 70 to be more than adequate for this swap. There are those who feel that there is a need for the 4L80. My personal experience is my 700 survived under my truck for close to 160,000 miles when I swapped out the drivetrain. The 4L65 has upgraded planetaries, sunshell and other internals making it a great trans. Also lower first gear is great!
IMO, a 4L65 is the go to for this motor swap.
I feel this falls under the 14BFF vs SF, or 205 vs 241c arguments. There are some definite strength advantages to the 4L80, but it also comes with increased size, weight and drivetrain drag.
The best advice I can offer in regards to this is to seek an engine that comes with a trans attached. That way you are not dealing with the hassle of flex plates adapters etc.
The three most common trans to run are the 4L65 / 4L80 or NV5000, but rest assured that pretty much any GM trans will bolt up. It may not use all the bell housing bolts, but it will work
NV4500 - 460 Lb Ft but it is clutch soooo….
4L65 - 670 lb Ft
4L80 - 880 lb ft
The 4L60/65 is for all intents and purposes a redesigned and engineered 700R4. This makes swapping it in very very simple. There might be some disagreement here but I feel the 4L60 and specifically 65 and 70 to be more than adequate for this swap. There are those who feel that there is a need for the 4L80. My personal experience is my 700 survived under my truck for close to 160,000 miles when I swapped out the drivetrain. The 4L65 has upgraded planetaries, sunshell and other internals making it a great trans. Also lower first gear is great!
IMO, a 4L65 is the go to for this motor swap.
I feel this falls under the 14BFF vs SF, or 205 vs 241c arguments. There are some definite strength advantages to the 4L80, but it also comes with increased size, weight and drivetrain drag.
The best advice I can offer in regards to this is to seek an engine that comes with a trans attached. That way you are not dealing with the hassle of flex plates adapters etc.
4.) Drivelines and Transfer Case. Now is the time to do them. Unless you have been wheeling with a SBC and one tons and drivelines, it is most likely prudent to look at the drivelines in particular as they are gonna be under more stress (most likely double) what they were before.
Transfer case. VSS vs mech speedo.
- stock on a K5 or K10 was 1310, which while adequate for the 10 bolt corporate and limited slip, will most likely choke on double the HP and Torque.
- going with a new engine, trans and possibly transfer case is going to have you reevaluating the crossmember options. Now is a good opportunity to evaluate you CV options for your front shaft and SYE for the rear (especially if you are going new TC)
- the 1350 1 ton is a great option for anyone swapping in a new drivetrain. It will match up nicely with the new power plant but plan and budget accordingly. New drivelines from a reputable shop with correct slip, correct yokes and CVs will most likely run anywhere from $1200- $1500 for a set. This is often a last minute consideration for many building their trucks and can sneak up on you.
- I would consider 1350 to be the minimum you should consider. There are those that say to build your drivetrain around the weak link with the weak link being the CV or U joint. I understand this logic, but also question why not build everything to the same standard
- keep in mind a 1350 CV is larger in diameter than a 1310 CV, probably by about 1/2 and inch. But the increase in strength is substantial. Conservatively 1600 vs 2100 ft lbs of torque.
- While there are not going to be any hard and fast rules about what will fit, recognize that exhaust location, crossmember clearance and angles will be important and something you should be ready to accommodate for
Transfer case. VSS vs mech speedo.
- this is an area of much consternation and I honestly believe going to your local junkyard and sourcing a 241c can alleviate so many headaches. A good 241c can be found for under $200 (most have barely been used). I believe the 241 went electric speedo in 91 so this can help avoid the mech reluctor gear etc.
- the 241c was a dramatic improvement over the common NP208. With the 241c you moved to a unit that was dimensionally the same as the 208, with a lubrication pump, VSS (vehicle speed sensor, vs mech reluctor gear) and a 5 gear planetary as opposed to 3.
- I believe the money spent on a SYE ($300) and junkyard 241c ($200) is money well spent.
- you can try and get the reluctor gear to work, but….
- When I tore apart my 241c to replace the output shaft for the SYE, the shift fork pads were brand new. By being picky at the junkyard, you can find a transfer case that never saw anything other than 2wd.
- there are those who swear by the 205. Steel case, gear driven etc. Yes, if you are doing hard core crawling etc, but for the VAST majority out there will not need the increased durability but decreased gear range of the 205. And mating it to a 4L65 can get $$$$
5.) Harness. How brave are you. There is about a $1k savings if you want to rebuild the one that your truck comes with. If you are getting this from a junkyard, you are in for some work, if you use turnkey or PacFab etc, then this should be included in the purchase price.
- advantages to building your own harness include $ savings (provided you do it correctly), getting it to lay exactly the way you want it to, and really really knowing your motor. I have a rudimentary understanding of my wiring harness under the hood but not the sort of knowledge you get when you de-pin and re-pin all connectors.
- disadvantages include complexity, wiring it wrong and chasing ghosts. With a new harness you can call up to the manufacturer and say wtf, this doesn’t work etc. You also are dealing with all new connectors and wiring, not 10-15 year old wiring. This basically comes down to a budget thing. I personally didn’t want to be chasing gremlins, and the money I saved on a craigslist motor I put towards a custom harness.
- also with a custom harness you will be packaging the PCM tune into it. I highly recommend Team 208 motorsports. I didn't get my harness from them, but Josh has gone above and beyond in the tuning, wiring and finishing of the motor. I can’t speak highly enough as quite honestly an engine is not finished until it is tuned. And that level of understanding and customization is not available in a bulk package. Having some one who really understands these trucks, their application and usage is critical.
- bottom line, I feel that the $ should be spent here. A good tuner can make a motor sing. You are not building a showroom stock truck and a showroom harness and tune will not work for you. I personally feel that the money you can save by going with a junkyard motor should be saved for the harness and tune. Gone are the days of rejetting your carb and calling it good. Now reading wideband O2 sensors, the MAF tables, Fueling curves, timing and shift points are just the beginning. Unless you have a thorough understanding of EFI live etc leave this to the professionals….
6.) Cooling. The radiator you currently have will work, but there are several advantages to the LS that will make some minor mods helpful. The inlet will be on the passenger side of the radiator as opposed to the driver, but finding a hose to accommodate that isn’t too difficult. The LS motors do now come with steam vents off the head. This helps reduce any hot pockets in the heads due to steam accumulation or poor coolant circulation. A port will need to be T’d into the inlet hose.
If you do decide to go with a new radiator, there are tons of manufacturers out there that can supply you. I chose to go with a Griffin, due to their reputation and proven record. My radiator came with dual Spal fans, and shroud. While the fans are loud, my engine has yet to see over 215 degrees.
I removed the engine oil cooler and went to a block off plate. There has been arguing on the Internet over the necessity of the oil cooler. I subscribe to the theory that coolant is for cooling and oil is for lubricating. Introducing hot oil into the radiator in addition to the hot coolant will only have the effect of heating up the radiator more and reducing its efficiency. Maybe I am wrong on this, but reducing oil lines under the hood and away from the internals of the engine was something I liked. I have never seen my oil get hot yet, so…..
Trans cooler. Get a standalone plate and fin or preferably a small fan cooled unit. I went with the DeRale unit that I mounted under the hood and installed an in line 180 degree thermostat. The trans isn’t going to be cooled by coolant, the trans fluid much serve two purposes. A good cooler is good insurance. By getting a fan mounted cooler, you can also move it up and out of the way and reduce the risk of damage by rock etc. I prefer this to using the cooler in the radiator for reasons mentioned above and also not placing it in front of the radiator for better convection cooling to the radiator.
If you do decide to go with a new radiator, there are tons of manufacturers out there that can supply you. I chose to go with a Griffin, due to their reputation and proven record. My radiator came with dual Spal fans, and shroud. While the fans are loud, my engine has yet to see over 215 degrees.
I removed the engine oil cooler and went to a block off plate. There has been arguing on the Internet over the necessity of the oil cooler. I subscribe to the theory that coolant is for cooling and oil is for lubricating. Introducing hot oil into the radiator in addition to the hot coolant will only have the effect of heating up the radiator more and reducing its efficiency. Maybe I am wrong on this, but reducing oil lines under the hood and away from the internals of the engine was something I liked. I have never seen my oil get hot yet, so…..
Trans cooler. Get a standalone plate and fin or preferably a small fan cooled unit. I went with the DeRale unit that I mounted under the hood and installed an in line 180 degree thermostat. The trans isn’t going to be cooled by coolant, the trans fluid much serve two purposes. A good cooler is good insurance. By getting a fan mounted cooler, you can also move it up and out of the way and reduce the risk of damage by rock etc. I prefer this to using the cooler in the radiator for reasons mentioned above and also not placing it in front of the radiator for better convection cooling to the radiator.
7.) What to look for. Now that we have identified what kind of motor you want (LM7, LQ4, LQ9 etc) it is time to create a wish list of what we will settle for.
-can you get a great deal on a long block? Sure, will you pay for it on the back end with accessories etc. Possibly ….
-can you get a great deal on a long block? Sure, will you pay for it on the back end with accessories etc. Possibly ….
- If you choose the junkyard route, there are several factors that you can use to your advantage when looking for an engine. Are you getting an engine and all accessories out of a confirmed running vehicle. Can they show you that? Is it complete? Was it a front end collision etc
- if not, what sort of warranty are they willing to offer? I know this is limited comfort when you have installed it already but can they turn it over for you, will they replace it if it grenades on you, will they stand behind it? All this will factor into the price. You can expect to pay between $750 and $3000 for an engine and engine / trans combo depending on what you are getting
- check the motor out. If they have drained the fluids, check for buildup anywhere. Are there significant oil or contaminant deposits anywhere? Pull a couple of plugs to take a read. Excessively dirty, oily, burnt etc and give you a good idea.
- Is there any external damage to the engine, dented oil pan, mashed spark plug wires etc. Walk away, there are too many options to settle for something that could give you issues.
- Pull the pan if they left you. See what you see. Basically the more investigative work you can do here the better off you will be in the long run. And recognize that any of the legwork you do cannot hurt you, it can only be used to bargain on the price.
8.) Installation. Now that you have your motor what next? What do you need to be concerned with fitment wise? Well with our trucks we have the benefit of space. The reason the car engines are so popular is that they are so much more compact. The intake alone can be up to three inches shorter. Engine oil pan also. That said, we have trucks, we have room.
Removing the front clip of the truck is so easy I find it is a no brainer to remove it when beginning the removal and install. If you are replacing the motor, now is a good time to take a look at battery wiring, headlight wiring and replace as necessary. With about 25 bolts removed, you can have grill, hood, wheel liners, fenders and core support out making working on the engine a dream.
Motor mounts. There are several companies out there making motor mounts. I found the DIY4X mounts to be by far the best. Several companies will stamp mounts, and bend tabs up for the bushings, not DIY4X. Kurt will weld the full plate using his polymer bushings that are found on all his suspension parts. Along with a perfect plate for the motor with recessed hardware and burly 1/2 inch hardware and adjustable placement these were my go to.
Engine Crossmember. You will need to replace this. The stock one will interfere with the engine oil pan. Yes you could probably get a Moroso Windage tray to avoid interference, but this is one of those products where you are already here, why not do it right. I found the T&A fab crossmember to be perfect. The crossmember comes in three pieces with an option for a pan hard bar for suspension should you need it. Offers great clearance and fit. I was able to run my hydro assist cylinder directly on top of the axle with the line above the cylinder for safety and protection and still not have any interference with the crossmember. That is cool.
The Off Road Design crossmember is also an option, but keep in mind it is intended for a Big Block so some elevation of the motor mounts will be needed to clearance the pan. Not a big deal and somewhat cheaper than the T&A.
The trans mount and TC skidpad will bolt right up if you are using a 4L60e. Now is a good time to replace the trans crossmember bushing. I guarantee yours is toast.
Apart from that, the motor will drop very nicely into your truck.
Removing the front clip of the truck is so easy I find it is a no brainer to remove it when beginning the removal and install. If you are replacing the motor, now is a good time to take a look at battery wiring, headlight wiring and replace as necessary. With about 25 bolts removed, you can have grill, hood, wheel liners, fenders and core support out making working on the engine a dream.
Motor mounts. There are several companies out there making motor mounts. I found the DIY4X mounts to be by far the best. Several companies will stamp mounts, and bend tabs up for the bushings, not DIY4X. Kurt will weld the full plate using his polymer bushings that are found on all his suspension parts. Along with a perfect plate for the motor with recessed hardware and burly 1/2 inch hardware and adjustable placement these were my go to.
Engine Crossmember. You will need to replace this. The stock one will interfere with the engine oil pan. Yes you could probably get a Moroso Windage tray to avoid interference, but this is one of those products where you are already here, why not do it right. I found the T&A fab crossmember to be perfect. The crossmember comes in three pieces with an option for a pan hard bar for suspension should you need it. Offers great clearance and fit. I was able to run my hydro assist cylinder directly on top of the axle with the line above the cylinder for safety and protection and still not have any interference with the crossmember. That is cool.
The Off Road Design crossmember is also an option, but keep in mind it is intended for a Big Block so some elevation of the motor mounts will be needed to clearance the pan. Not a big deal and somewhat cheaper than the T&A.
The trans mount and TC skidpad will bolt right up if you are using a 4L60e. Now is a good time to replace the trans crossmember bushing. I guarantee yours is toast.
Apart from that, the motor will drop very nicely into your truck.
9.) Fueling - when moving the the LS motor recognize that the new engine will require a substantial increase in fuel pressure. 8-10 PSI on EFI to about 58-62 PSI for LS. You will need a new fuel pump. The Walbro 250’s are good pumps as are the AC Delco’s. This is an area where I had some bad luck and actually went through a couple of pumps. One was most likely my pump as being submersion pumps, they run pretty hot as the fuel drops and if you run one dry (run out of gas) you stand a good chance of killing it.
Now is also the time to replace your sending unit. You can keep the old one, but as with pretty much everything on the truck, if it hasn’t been replaced, you are dealing with 30 year old wiring. For the $50 just replace it and drop in new.
There are going to be two types of fuel systems. Return, and returnless. Both are easy to deal with. The return will just bolt up naturally to the existing fuel lines, the returnless will just require an inline filter and pressure regulator. The corvette filter is a very popular filter for this. It maintains pressure, regulates and returns the fuel.
Now is also the time to replace your sending unit. You can keep the old one, but as with pretty much everything on the truck, if it hasn’t been replaced, you are dealing with 30 year old wiring. For the $50 just replace it and drop in new.
There are going to be two types of fuel systems. Return, and returnless. Both are easy to deal with. The return will just bolt up naturally to the existing fuel lines, the returnless will just require an inline filter and pressure regulator. The corvette filter is a very popular filter for this. It maintains pressure, regulates and returns the fuel.
completely offtopic, but... I give you props man..... 
I used to do tutorial things like this 15 yr's ago or so on everything from boat repair to bodywork to vert skateboard tricks, it's a passion and love.. (especially my skate site, lived for that soul that others may feel), and I respect that.. I hope what you archive, helps people..
I have to admit, I became somewhat jaded on it all... hr's of typing out detailed repair stuff for boat forums, this place, etc became/becomes a, tiring thing..... especially when hard earned wisdom is considered "condescending"
keep at it man..... not sure what your looking to achieve, but passing on knowledge is always a good thing... I look at my impending mortality and consider what tidbit's of info I may have helped someone with in my life... whether it's walking someone thru a dent repair, rebuilding an outdrive or designing a tubebed, it does matter... whether relegated to the files of intraweb cobwebs or American Idol, wisdom always helps..
I used to do tutorial things like this 15 yr's ago or so on everything from boat repair to bodywork to vert skateboard tricks, it's a passion and love.. (especially my skate site, lived for that soul that others may feel), and I respect that.. I hope what you archive, helps people..
I have to admit, I became somewhat jaded on it all... hr's of typing out detailed repair stuff for boat forums, this place, etc became/becomes a, tiring thing..... especially when hard earned wisdom is considered "condescending"
keep at it man..... not sure what your looking to achieve, but passing on knowledge is always a good thing...
I look at my impending mortality and consider what tidbit's of info I may have helped someone with in my life... whether it's walking someone thru a dent repair, rebuilding an outdrive or designing a tubebed, it does matter... whether relegated to the files of intraweb cobwebs or American Idol, wisdom always helps..
Forgot the how to on talking our wives into letting us do the swap!
so here it is
Number 1
Number 1
drew4x4
1/2 ton status
really good video. i like your work.
another tip for fuel. in-pump tanks can be run dry going around a corner or wheeling if there are no baffles inside the tank. pre-87 k5 tanks don't have baffles because the pump was never in the tank. all you have to do is order an 87-91 k5 fuel tank, and it will have fuel injection baffles inside.
one more tip. if you have a pre-80, and you get an 87 fuel tank, the fuel filler neck changed sizes sometime around 81. the filler neck on the 80 is a lot smaller. you can use an adapter from jags that run to reduce the size of the filler neck so everything jives together.
another tip for fuel. in-pump tanks can be run dry going around a corner or wheeling if there are no baffles inside the tank. pre-87 k5 tanks don't have baffles because the pump was never in the tank. all you have to do is order an 87-91 k5 fuel tank, and it will have fuel injection baffles inside.
one more tip. if you have a pre-80, and you get an 87 fuel tank, the fuel filler neck changed sizes sometime around 81. the filler neck on the 80 is a lot smaller. you can use an adapter from jags that run to reduce the size of the filler neck so everything jives together.
so it has been six months and I kinda got sidetracked with other videos, but I finally got part II up. Transmission, transfer case and drivelines.
Take a look, give me feedback good or bad. Preferably in the comments of the video as that is where it will do the most good. I am by no means an authority on this, rather someone who has done it and learned the hard way lol.
Take a look, give me feedback good or bad. Preferably in the comments of the video as that is where it will do the most good. I am by no means an authority on this, rather someone who has done it and learned the hard way lol.
