Why dont we do cross over like this?

[y5mgisi]

From another thread,

On like a 4" or less lift. Why dont we do more of this type cross over? Seems like it would be "cheap and easy" and possibly let you keep the sway bar. It cant be unsafe as other manufactures do it this way from the factory. I would like to do it with a 2.5" lift and a sway bar and see how it turns out.

 

[yellowK20]

I've wondered the exact same thing,

 

[stumpjump]

NorCal Chris built that, that's not a factory set up... done properly I believe it would be perfectly safe...

 

[Amtek]

yeah....no... Theres a reason why its not done that way.

That draglink looks like it came straight out of the ScarySteering website: http://128.83.80.200/taco/scarysteering8.html

Ford uses a a setup similar to this, but the draglink is straight, as it should be. Just think about the forces on those bends everytime you turn the wheel.

 

[owenst7]

We don't do it because it's retarded. The bending stress at the bends is ridiculous. Inverted-t is sort of acceptable for a stock rig but that z link is a great way to end up on scary steering if you're lucky, dead if you're not.

To further emphasize that I'm not being an elitist-pirate4x4-keyboard wheeling fool, this is a local guy that tacoed his STOCK inverted-y draglink about a week ago. XJs/MJs/TJs/JKs have a very minor bend to clear the coil bucket at the bottom of the draglink and have nowhere near the bending moment that those retarded z-links have. Not to mention this is a lightweight MJ on narrow 31"s just going down the dirt road to the campfire area. This is essentially a stock vehicle with a whole lot less force getting put on the draglink than any fullsize running 33x12.50s.

An ORU crossover knuckle with the cast-in steering arm is SOOOOOOO much safer. It's not worth dying over some damn roll steer, keep the stock system and save another $100 if you have to.

And no manufacturers use a drag link with bends anywhere near that severe. The 3 linked Jeeps are the closest to it and the bends are only a few degrees and therefore have nowhere near the bending stress that those z-links do. And with as flimsy as Jeeps are stock, if they think it's too weak to use, you know it's not a good idea on a fullsize.

 

[y5mgisi]

So it seems some of you are arguing that it is unsafe because of the bend in the draglink? ORD sels then that way and no one seems to have a problem with those yet. Im talking about essentially taking a ORD bent draglink, shorting it, and attaching it to the tierod. Still unsafe or acceptable?

 

[scottsdale86]

yeah....no... Theres a reason why its not done that way.

That draglink looks like it came straight out of the ScarySteering website: http://128.83.80.200/taco/scarysteering8.html

Ford uses a a setup similar to this, but the draglink is straight, as it should be.

Guy who runs that site is about as stupid and ignorant as the pics he bashes. I don't need an f-bomb every sentence just let the pics speak for themselves. Man some of those are bad!

 

[owenst7]

So it seems some of you are arguing that it is unsafe because of the bend in the draglink? ORD sels then that way and no one seems to have a problem with those yet. Im talking about essentially taking a ORD bent draglink, shorting it, and attaching it to the tierod. Still unsafe or acceptable?

The ORD drag links are a very minor bend. The perpendicular distance from the bend is proportional to the bending stress at a joint. The ORD links are pretty close to straight if you are comparing the two ends, whereas the "z-links" are much much more off-axis.

The ORD links are also made of much larger diameter tube.

I strongly doubt that you could clear the leaf spring without using a severe bend in the draglink unless you connected to the tie rod closer to the centerline of the axle, in which case you would put a huge bending stress on the tie rod. You could probably make it hold up to a set of mild tires that way by building a tie rod of 1.5" OD DOM, but you would have a much shorter draglink and wouldn't be getting much of the benefit of crossover, and you would have to spend money on a useless tie rod.

The stock steering system is not that bad. It's not worth risking your life or possibly others on the road to gain some better roll steer characteristics. If you're wheeling hard enough that the roll steer is an issue, chances are that any variation of proposed steering isn't going to be reliable anyways.

Maybe it will hold up for the mall crawling show truck crowd if you're careful of the curbs.

 

[y5mgisi]

Ok, so if a person did like i explained i had thoughts of doing, would that be safe? Or would the brotherhood shun me and call me a stupid boy?

 

[y5mgisi]

Here is a pic of a ford stuper duty. There draglinks are not quite straight, and the tierods are bent too. I have yet to hear of a failure with their setup.

 

[owenst7]

Here is a pic of a ford stuper duty. There draglinks are not quite straight, and the tierods are bent too. I have yet to hear of a failure with their setup.

Again, those bends are very minor and the off-axis distance is very small in relation to the diameter of the rod itself. A lot of stock vehicles have very minor bends like that but there is no way you'll clear the leaf spring with small bends like that. The drag link-to-knuckle axis is like straight through the leaf spring and you'd have to bend the drag link several inches off-axis to clear it without hitting it at right hand lock.

If you did something like you described with minor bends in your draglink, you'll have to attach to your tie rod really far away from you knuckle. In which case, you're causing the same bending moment issue, only now it's at your tie rod, but you also have significantly reduced the effectiveness of a crossover-like system to reduce roll steer. You will also have more bumpsteer than the stock system does. ALSO you will be putting a really steep angle on your drag link end and will probably end up causing those to fail frequently.

 

[y5mgisi]

And here is one of a dodge. Which coincidently, i find scary.

 

[y5mgisi]

To eliminate the argument, lets just say that you would be using this exact draglink.

 

[boz42]

I know 2 people locally that have new Dodges & they both get the Death Wobble. Steering related maybe??



I think that the draglink being attached into the tierod is fine on a rig that does not have tires over 35 & does not get abused offroad.

I have onwned several Ford late 70's 4x4's & they are set up this way. They seem to hold up fine until you abuse them in rocks, or get into the larger tire sizes.

 

[Amtek]

The ORD kit has small bends and is made of substantially thicker stock, my criticisms were for the draglink in the photo in the OP. I think you would be okay to use the ORD kit as you described if it can clear the leaf springs. The Tie-rods are a little more forgiving with bends because they only have to deal with half the force whereas a draglink must take the full force of turning both tires in compression and tension.

 

[y5mgisi]

So upon further investmogation, i don t think it would work out right anyway. Here is a pic with what appears to be the ORD setup on it with a 4" lift. THere is obiously no way that you could hook it up to the draglink without a horrid angle on it. So, at that, i say, Erase erase erase!

 

[owenst7]

Again, you will never get that draglink to clear with such minor bends without connecting it much further away from the passenger side knuckle, in which case you cause the same bending moment issue, you've just moved it to the tie rod and caused a bunch of other crappy steering characteristics that will probably accumulate to being as bad or worse than the stock steering system.

The Dodge system is really not any better or worse than the Ford system you pictured. Neither is good for what we do, but they are not at risk for collapsing when kept within their design limits. The design limits for a "z-link" on the other hand are going to be along the lines of like a dune buggy when using 1.5" OD tube.

 

[owenst7]

The ORD kit has small bends and is made of substantially thicker stock, my criticisms were for the draglink in the photo in the OP. I think you would be okay to use the ORD kit as you described if it can clear the leaf springs. The Tie-rods are a little more forgiving with bends because they only have to deal with half the force whereas a draglink must take the full force of turning both tires in compression and tension.

Bending stress almost always dictates design of members in this case. The bending stress on the tie rod will exceed the material strength long before any tensile/compressive forces become relevant.

 

[owenst7]

So upon further investmogation, i don t think it would work out right anyway. Here is a pic with what appears to be the ORD setup on it with a 4" lift. THere is obiously no way that you could hook it up to the draglink without a horrid angle on it. So, at that, i say, Erase erase erase!

That guy with the MJ I pictured is damn lucky he didn't kill his girlfriend and himself the other night, and those steep bends are way more of an issue than the little ones that all the stock 3-link systems use.

Just don't want to see anyone get hurt because they didn't design it well. Truthfully, these are the kind of issues that happen once in a great while and cause state governments to enforce inspections and stuff, albeit the implementation/understanding/effectiveness is not really there, but that is the intention.

Steering can be dangerous stuff. It's not rocket science, but those z-links are really damn dangerous. What really concerns me is some people might use it for a while without issue, not knowing that they are causing necking and fatigue at the bends, which is most likely what happened with that MJ (it's stock but he does wheel it a little bit). Eventually, the cross-section at the bend is weakened enough that it could collapse just driving down a road, which is exactly what happened to my friend. There are really too many variables to say how long it will take, but there's not going to be any warning when it does happen considering the strain properties of steel, especially when all the dislocations are removed at the fracture site (material hardens and becomes less elastic i.e. brittle and is able to absorb less energy).

 

[shady]

And here is one of a dodge. Which coincidently, i find scary.

Whats the motor looking thing on the left side of the sway bar? Is that a factory disconnect? And the Guy with the MJ was NOT just casually driving down the dirt road. I've rolled enough old play vehicles beating them to know he was doing a good clip and any bent steering arms were probably due to the accident, not the cause. The big Z is a bad idea for sure though. Even if you were able to do it, as you've already figured out you cant, you still wouldnt be able to run the sway bar because the steering arm end would contact it. It was a good thought though. I'm still working on a way to do crossover with a sway bar. I know its possible but just not with the factory bar.