fireplug
1/2 ton status
SierraClassic said:
Right. Forgot about the compression aspect. I was trying to compare, spark with glow plugs, and that didn't compute to higher draw.
CK5
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Yellow Top or Red?????
- Thread starter LEEREED123
- Start date
Right. Forgot about the compression aspect. I was trying to compare, spark with glow plugs, and that didn't compute to higher draw.
fireplug
1/2 ton status
A brief look tells me that for the sizes we'd use there are only 30 to 50 CCA difference between the red and yellow tops.
Which would cause me to lean towards a 'dual' purpose yellow top, if I was running a diesel trail rig with high draw items such as lights, or a winch.
There ARE other factors but that is the simple version.
Which would cause me to lean towards a 'dual' purpose yellow top, if I was running a diesel trail rig with high draw items such as lights, or a winch.
There ARE other factors but that is the simple version.
russ, so your saying that dual yellows wouldnt have a harder time at startup than 2 conventional batteries?
the yellow tops im looking to get are 1125 CA and 850 CCA (i think its only like $10 difference or somehting between these and the normal yellow tops, we can special order these at my work (advance auto parts))
the yellow tops im looking to get are 1125 CA and 850 CCA (i think its only like $10 difference or somehting between these and the normal yellow tops, we can special order these at my work (advance auto parts))
It sounds like the yellow tops are not a conventional deep cycle, and they doesn't have trouble flowing a whole lotta juice real fast on a startup, like most deep cycles.
If thats the case, and you plan on running a bunch of lights a winch etc, then go for the yellow tops!
If thats the case, and you plan on running a bunch of lights a winch etc, then go for the yellow tops!
SierraClassic said:
cool beans
once these current ones die
cranking ability is purely a function of cranking amps, not deep cycle vs starting...
Plenty of "deep cycles" have lots of cranking amps... Lots of hybrid cell tech out these days too blurring the line between crank and deep...
Where deep cycle style cell batteries really shine is their reserve capacity, not necessarily there ability to be drawn near death and charge back up, but in their durability to put out that long...
Plenty of "deep cycles" have lots of cranking amps... Lots of hybrid cell tech out these days too blurring the line between crank and deep...
Where deep cycle style cell batteries really shine is their reserve capacity, not necessarily there ability to be drawn near death and charge back up, but in their durability to put out that long...
fireplug
1/2 ton status
I'd have to disagree with you. I know you are in the business so I hate to question you, but ALL of my reading tells me otherwise. The exact purpose of a deep cycle is it's ability to 'bounce back' from both multiple and extreme drains. Whereas a typical battery can have a very large reserve...ryoken said:
fireplug
1/2 ton status
- Starting (sometimes called SLI, for starting, lighting, ignition) batteries are commonly used to start and run engines. Engine starters need a very large starting current for a very short time. Starting batteries have a large number of thin plates for maximum surface area. The plates are composed of a Lead "sponge", similar in appearance to a very fine foam sponge. This gives a very large surface area, but if deep cycled, this sponge will quickly be consumed and fall to the bottom of the cells. Automotive batteries will generally fail after 30-150 deep cycles if deep cycled, while they may last for thousands of cycles in normal starting use (2-5% discharge).
- Deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% time after time, and have much thicker plates. The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. Unfortunately, it is often impossible to tell what you are really buying in some of the discount stores or places that specialize in automotive batteries. The popular golf cart battery is generally a "semi" deep cycle - better than any starting battery, better than most marine, but not as good as a true deep cycle solid Lead plate, such the L-16 or industrial type. However, because the golf cart (T-105, US-2200, GC-4 etc) batteries are so common, they are usually quite economical for small to medium systems.
- Many (most?) Marine batteries are usually actually a "hybrid", and fall between the starting and deep-cycle batteries, while a few (Rolls-Surrette and Concorde, for example) are true deep cycle. In the hybrid, the plates may be composed of Lead sponge, but it is coarser and heavier than that used in starting batteries. It is often hard to tell what you are getting in a "marine" battery, but most are a hybrid. "Hybrid" types should not be discharged more than 50%. Starting batteries are usually rated at "CCA", or cold cranking amps, or "MCA", Marine cranking amps - the same as "CA". Any battery with the capacity shown in CA or MCA may not be a true deep-cycle battery. It is sometimes hard to tell, as the terms marine and deep cycle are sometimes overused. CA and MCA ratings are at 32 degrees F, while CCA is at zero degree F. Unfortunately, the only positive way to tell with some batteries is to buy one and cut it open - not much of an option.
fireplug said:
boy, people just love to argue..
reread what I wrote, yes, deep cycle are wonderful for there drain till dead capability.. But nothing you just posted denounced anything I said..
And what I'll resay, IMO, deep cycles true great ability is in there reserve capacity.. Go look at the poor reserve capacity of any "cranking" battery, then check the reserve on a comparable deep, usually 4 to 6 times the capacity...
Why do you suppose deep cycles generally have slightly less cranking amps? hmmm? That has to be going somewhere, the reserve...
I'll take a 1000 CCA deep over 1100 CCA starting ANYDAY, why? cuz it'll have over 400 minutes reserve compared to 100 for the starting...
Actually, my apologies... I just read that last post and it definitely comes off kinda rude.. wasn't my intention... shoulda thrown in a few winks or something...
fireplug
1/2 ton status
I definitely don't love to argue, and tried to show that and respect in my post, maybe I didn't do a good enough job.ryoken said:
However, in the interest of learning something and/or indeed promoting accurate info I do encourage further discussion. That's how we all benefit right?
That said, if YOU look at my post, I DO REFUTE your input, specifically,
"Where deep cycle style cell batteries really shine is their reserve capacity, not necessarily there ability to be drawn near death and charge back up"
Again, I'm no expert, but EVERYTHING that I've read discounts that comment 100% and infact promotes the opposite.
We can bash this to all shiat in PM's if needed, but l know I personally would like to learn something, so if someone has some better info, or first hand knowledge instead of opinion and reading behind them, let's hear it!
EDIT - no prob! same here...no winks required!
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Batteries dont actually do anything! you dont need them!
fireplug said:I definitely don't love to argue, and tried to show that and respect in my post, maybe I didn't do a good enough job.
However, in the interest of learning something and/or indeed promoting accurate info I do encourage further discussion. That's how we all benefit right?
That said, if YOU look at my post, I DO REFUTE your input, specifically,
"Where deep cycle style cell batteries really shine is their reserve capacity, not necessarily there ability to be drawn near death and charge back up"
Again, I'm no expert, but EVERYTHING that I've read discounts that comment 100% and infact promotes the opposite.
We can bash this to all shiat in PM's if needed, but l know I personally would like to learn something, so if someone has some better info, or first hand knowledge instead of opinion and reading behind them, let's hear it!
EDIT - no prob! same here...no winks required!
I don't see how your not getting what I said... I don't think your understanding it, your just regurgitating what your reading without thinking about it..
common battery tech is that deep cycles can be drawn down to nearly nothing.. What I said about reserve capacity is closely related to that, closely.. How can that be the opposite?
Your just keying on the fact I said, "not necessarily there ability to be drawn near death and charge back up", and saying "Ahah! he's wrong!" and remember, I said, "not necessarily", not discounting that ability, only bringing up something I feel is more important, that never gets discussed, reserve capacity...
As a matter of fact, I'll go back and pull a quote... "Whereas a typical battery can have a very large reserve..."
That statement is absolutely incorrect... Just look at the numbers.. starting batteries suck on the reserve capacity (big time), whereas deep cycles have abundant reserve...
Batteries promoted on their high Cold Cranking Amps are easy and inexpensive to build. The market is flooded with them, however their reserve capacity, cycle life (the number of discharges and charges the battery can deliver) and service life are poor. Reserve capacity is difficult and costly to engineer into a battery and requires higher quality cell materials...
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LEEREED123
1/2 ton status
muddybuddy said:Batteries dont actually do anything! you dont need them!
Don't tell my Ex-Wife that!
greythorn3
1/2 ton status
yellow tops
i run 2 yellow tops.. and in the winter they go dead easily.. i have to take them inside and hit them with 40 AMP charger to get them to charge.. but otherwise they are good..
Ray
i run 2 yellow tops.. and in the winter they go dead easily.. i have to take them inside and hit them with 40 AMP charger to get them to charge.. but otherwise they are good..
Ray
fireplug
1/2 ton status
Ryoken,
LOL I want to respond with your very same words! LMAO
I think we are debating semantics now. And in general I agree with everything you said. And it sounds like we are both currently on track and in agreement. Whether we're correct or not is another thing! lol
There IS a difference between reserve capacity and deep cycling ability though. And it didn't sound like you were acknowledging that to me. In fact I quoted the one time that you said what I thought was the opposite hence my frustration.
Back in the day, before I knew about deep cycle batteries I'd pay through the teeth for LARGE reserve, or what in an earlier post I called "typical" or starting batteries. But these were NOT deep cycle, nor did they possess the deep cycles ability to bounce back for a deep discharge nearly as well. So yes I could run my stereo at the camp site for a long time, but doing so every weekend would kill the battery far sooner than it's normal life cycle. Had I known then what I do now I could've saved a bundle of moola. Oh well that's life.
For rigs that are often draining their batteries with whatever accessories, from a longevity or financial or trail worthiness aspect the solution is deep cycle batteries NOT high reserve batteries. Unless you can get a really high reserve deep cycle.
What I'd REALLY like to know, is what batteries out there are the REAL deal as far as deep cycling ability goes. Construction is the answer, but short of cutting a battery open, how do you know. I find the company propaganda is rather elusive no matter who it is.
I'd bet the Armed Forces use some pretty tech stuff, anyone have any incite?
How about the diesels? Has anyone determined whether their batteries are isolated from the factory and if so, how?
LOL I want to respond with your very same words! LMAO
I think we are debating semantics now. And in general I agree with everything you said. And it sounds like we are both currently on track and in agreement. Whether we're correct or not is another thing! lol
There IS a difference between reserve capacity and deep cycling ability though. And it didn't sound like you were acknowledging that to me. In fact I quoted the one time that you said what I thought was the opposite hence my frustration.
Back in the day, before I knew about deep cycle batteries I'd pay through the teeth for LARGE reserve, or what in an earlier post I called "typical" or starting batteries. But these were NOT deep cycle, nor did they possess the deep cycles ability to bounce back for a deep discharge nearly as well. So yes I could run my stereo at the camp site for a long time, but doing so every weekend would kill the battery far sooner than it's normal life cycle. Had I known then what I do now I could've saved a bundle of moola. Oh well that's life.
For rigs that are often draining their batteries with whatever accessories, from a longevity or financial or trail worthiness aspect the solution is deep cycle batteries NOT high reserve batteries. Unless you can get a really high reserve deep cycle.
What I'd REALLY like to know, is what batteries out there are the REAL deal as far as deep cycling ability goes. Construction is the answer, but short of cutting a battery open, how do you know. I find the company propaganda is rather elusive no matter who it is.
I'd bet the Armed Forces use some pretty tech stuff, anyone have any incite?
How about the diesels? Has anyone determined whether their batteries are isolated from the factory and if so, how?
greythorn3 said:
what are they being used for? i just dont understand how 2 yellow top optimas that you pay so much for could not work like that when it is cold. i thought they were suposed to be the "best of the best"
fireplug
1/2 ton status
Again, if it's really cold, CCA could be the cause. Is he starting the truck with the fan blowing and radio on? Have the batteries been incorrectly charged in the past? Is there a open circuit somewhere? Is his charging system up to par?muddybuddy said:
EDIT - while I'm guilty of doing the very same thing, I think it's kinda nuts to buy hundreds of bucks worth of 'tech' battery and then not bothering to check the 30 year old wiring, alternator, and grounds! I'll get around to that sometime lol.
I'd guess that most of the poor quality Optima stories we've heard are based on poor charging, or even use.
LEEREED123
1/2 ton status
fireplug said:
I agree, thats why i've replaced all the wiring as well.
BKinzey
1/2 ton status
LEEREED,
It depends on how you use your battery. If you have a winch, like to blast your stereo or accessories while the engine is off. Get the Yellow. If it's mostly to start the engine, get the red.
Diesels use 2 batteries for the reserve cranking capacity. If you need to crank more than 2 or 3 times to start a diesel you are putting a serious drain on the battery. Starting a diesel can be affected easily by outside factors so it's practical to have 2 batteries.
It depends on how you use your battery. If you have a winch, like to blast your stereo or accessories while the engine is off. Get the Yellow. If it's mostly to start the engine, get the red.
Diesels use 2 batteries for the reserve cranking capacity. If you need to crank more than 2 or 3 times to start a diesel you are putting a serious drain on the battery. Starting a diesel can be affected easily by outside factors so it's practical to have 2 batteries.
