CK5
Register an account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members.

1973 C10 "The Purple Truck"

Basic build
I just watched a recent episode of Engine Masters where they did dyno testing on different octane fuel; 87, 91, 110, 116. At the end of the day the octane didn't had minimal effect on power. Timing didn't even change. As @imiceman44 mentioned this is because octane rating has to do with the resistance to knock. This was also backed up by some other internet reading I did.

So bearing all that in mind, it has me wondering why I've seen the MPG improvement. I didn't make any changes to the EFI. Was I getting some pre-detonation on the 85 octane 10% ethanol stuff? Because that would have dropped engine efficiency. The fuel is coming from a different station, so maybe it's just better fuel?

So my initial thoughts when you guys were talking about all this ethanol free stuff was you are splitting hairs, I have never had a problem using 10% ethanol, I kind of like it sometimes because I feel like it helps clean stuff being in there. (If you've ever seen the inside of a race engine on methanol, you'll know what I mean). However, pure methanol does not lubricate anything, in fact it washes everything dry, so wear tends to increase. Mostly gas with a little ethanol I feel like is a good compromise. With that said, it is more susceptible to sitting or separation over time or if water gets in the fuel(this can cause separation), but I never recommend leaving a fuel tank sit for longer than 6 months for one winter, and when I do, I make sure its mostly full, it's worse to leave it sit almost empty. I don't recommend this with or without ethanol added.

On the fuel mileage, IF the PF4 is self correcting A/F ratio, it is possible you may see a slight improvement, because gasoline stoichiometric is about 14.7:1, and ethanol stoich is about 9:1.(Methanol is 6.4) During WOT you run richer than this, but during cruise or low load its not uncommon to be close to stoich. That means pure ethanol would use approximately 40% more fuel for the same air. So if you have 10% ethanol in your gas, 10% of 40%, you potentially would use 4% more fuel IF the engine is correcting for this. If it is not, you should not see a difference. Sometimes on long trips I look at the lbs/hr on my EFI, but I haven't done that in years. It's kind of like the instantaneous fuel flow at any given highway speed, etc.

However, since typically ethanol added gas is a little lower cost than pure gasoline, I don't think anyone would see a cost savings by running pure gasoline and potentially saving 4% more gas (possibly not because the engine has to correct for this, although many modern engines do). Usually the price difference is more than 4% though, so cost savings is possibly cheaper per mile with the ethanol?

When it comes to octane, you guys are correct, higher octane generally has a higher resistance to detonation, but a slightly lower energy per gallon. Usually this is negligible. I buy the octane my engine needs, regardless of 10% ethanol or not. An engine that has high compression may need 91 or 93 to not detonate or ping, etc. In that case if you use 87 it may cause engine damage and you may lose power. However, a, engine with only 9:1 compression and a low dynamic compression doesn't need 93 octane, and running it is kind of a waste of money. That 9:1 engine is going to make the most power at a certain ignition timing, and above that timing it won't make more power. So putting in premium fuel and more timing won't help you. Theoretically it will have lower energy, but I'm not sure you could measure it.

Now that I have said my opinion, maybe I should watch the video you mentioned above, it might be interesting.
 
Last edited:
Dyno is one thing. Real world on the ground is something else. I’ve never had any vehicle I’ve own get better mileage on 85 than 87, or on 87 than 91. That was tracking it on a spread sheet

My turd work van gets 20.5 on 87, 21.4 on 87 no eth, and 21.5 on 91. Tracked over a 16 month period

While I was writing the above post, you posted your long term results that I just saw, interesting that you saw a difference of 20.5 on 87 and 21.4 w/out ethanol. That's 20.5/21.4 = .958, or 95.8%, which means 4.2% loss of fuel economy with the ethanol. Makes sense, if you had a carb or open loop EFI, then there would likely be no difference, the engine would just run a little richer or leaner depending on which fuel you ran. Good real world results. So what was the cost difference between the fuels with or without ethanol at the same 87 octane?
 
Floating difference. At the start of this, the 87 octane field were the same price. Currently the no eth is +.10 over the 91 eth. So no cost savings fir sure

On the carb units and systems with no knock, I’ve always ran as much lead as possible on the dizzy. Such timing requires the higher octane, but obviously responds better also
 
Dyno is one thing. Real world on the ground is something else. I’ve never had any vehicle I’ve own get better mileage on 85 than 87, or on 87 than 91. That was tracking it on a spread sheet

My turd work van gets 20.5 on 87, 21.4 on 87 no eth, and 21.5 on 91. Tracked over a 16 month period
Well the thing is the engine has to be tuned to the fuel to benefit from anything.
If you have EFI that can compensate for detonation by advancing or retarding timing you will see a benefit from higher octane because of better power with higher compression.
If you build a motor for low octane and use higher octane without changing anything you can not get better mileage. It's physics not opinion.
But if you have an engine that has enough high compression to make a difference and was tuned to work with lower octane but then you add the higher octane and adjusted the timing then yes
 
Well the thing is the engine has to be tuned to the fuel to benefit from anything.
If you have EFI that can compensate for detonation by advancing or retarding timing you will see a benefit from higher octane because of better power with higher compression.
If you build a motor for low octane and use higher octane without changing anything you can not get better mileage. It's physics not opinion.
But if you have an engine that has enough high compression to make a difference and was tuned to work with lower octane but then you add the higher octane and adjusted the timing then yes
So my low compression Ford van didn’t get better mileage on higher octane?
Thanks for clarifying something that’s been proven on paper to contradict that
 
Isn’t atmospheric 14.7# positive (depending on elevation)?
 
So I think what I'm getting from this conversation is that perhaps the ethanol free gas is better suited for the AFR targets I have set.

In the Engine Masters episode I referenced they also tested E-85 and by far had the biggest gain in power. Not that it was super huge.

It's also worth noting they were optimizing the engine tune for each of the octane ratings. But the engine never wanted more timing despite the change in octane which they felt indicated the belief that higher octane fuel burns slower is not true. However, I do think they had to change the timing for the E-85 pull to get best power.

Also the target AFR for best power stayed within a half point for all of the octanes.

The test engine was new Blueprint Engines LS3 with factory type fuel injection.
 
Just read this thread, I oddly like it for a 2wd.

What did your son end up driving?

Martin
 
Isn’t atmospheric 14.7# positive (depending on elevation)?
Yes, atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi absolute. And gasoline stoichiometric A/F is also 14.7:1 (coincidence), although most engines need richer at load (mid 12s to mid 13s NA) because they aren't that efficient and they make more power with more fuel. Those are probably the numbers you are used to seeing on your EFI Dave?
 
Just read this thread, I oddly like it for a 2wd.

What did your son end up driving?

Martin
Thanks.

We set him up in an old company vehicle, a 2000 Toyota Tundra we bought in 2004. So far it has been working really well for him. When he heads off to college he might end up buying it from us.
 
Figured I would copy this over from the PF4 thread since it turns into something more truck specific.

Started developing an issue. I've been having intermittent rough idle. Happened the first time a couple of weeks ago. It was fine for several days, but now it has started happening just about every other drive. For example, it was fine commuting in yesterday morning. On the way home it was idling rough on the first half of the drive. Then it was fine driving a short distance later that night. This morning it was idling rough again, but there was one stop light it idled fine. Aside from idle, I only notice a little bit of stumble on hard acceleration. Every other driving condition is smooth.

The gauge display for the PF4 doesn't show anything obvious. I'm thinking it's gotta be something ignition related. Any thoughts?

Mmm crusty #6. #4 marginally better.

20210506_114054.jpg

2 were bad, #6 above is the worst.

#5
20210506_145924.jpg

#7
20210506_150253.jpg

Cleaned up the plugs with a pick and wire brush and the idle is smooth.

This motor doesn't smoke like others I've seen with leaky valve seals. It does smoke on the second start up of the day. I also see smoke on upshift if accelerating hard.

I recently noticed some detonation on hard acceleration and I fattened up the afr, lowered acceleration timing advance, and it's gone away now.

Guess we'll be seeing about a "new" motor.

I am very disappoint the PF4 didn't prevent this.
Y_real_son.gif

:haha:
 
Last edited:
The buckle on my lap belt quit working. I had to crawl out from under it. Figured it was a good time to get a 3 point setup installed.

I read somewhere that in 1966 California started requiring shoulder belts. It wasn't required nationally until later, 1976 maybe. Heck I think it was 1968 before vehicles were required to have seat belts of any kind on a national level.

Trucks like this 73 not sold in CA typically had lap belts, but because they were required to have shoulder belts in CA the anchor point is there behind a plastic plug.

20210520_183306.jpg

The trim panel is nicely marked where to drill the hole; the smaller full circle.

20210520_183311.jpg

Couldn't find green to match the factory belts so I went with black.

20210520_191957.jpg

The down side with the kit I got is it doesn't have a bolt for the factory shoulder belt captured nut. It's intended more for an application where there were no seat belts existing. It's a course thread 1/2" bolt but because of the trim panel it needs a shoulder or a spacer so it can rotate some.
 
The down side with the kit I got is it doesn't have a bolt for the factory shoulder belt captured nut. It's intended more for an application where there were no seat belts existing. It's a course thread 1/2" bolt but because of the trim panel it needs a shoulder or a spacer so it can rotate some.
I have plenty of the factory bolts if you want some.
 
Ok, I'll be "that guy"... How on earth did you crawl out from under the damn seat belt?

Knowing the belt buckle was fubar I would have cut the belt with my pocket knife. But then again I'm a big boy and if I was stuck in a regular cab truck with the belt on there would be no way I was going under it.
 
Ok, I'll be "that guy"... How on earth did you crawl out from under the damn seat belt?

Knowing the belt buckle was fubar I would have cut the belt with my pocket knife. But then again I'm a big boy and if I was stuck in a regular cab truck with the belt on there would be no way I was going under it.
I had to open the door and crawl out that way. Luckily there's plenty of length in the belt. Funny, I didn't even think about just cutting the belt and I have a pocket knife and box cutter in my pockets.
 
Top Bottom