1976 C-10 Stepside Shortbox - Beagle's Build

[folkenheath]

So if I'm reading this right, using that kit and some type of a multi-point injection manifold, it's possible to run a big block off of an LS style pcm and harness?

Yes, you are correct, and it may be less expensive, but doesn't have nearly the same aftermarket tuning and programming potential as the Holley ECU. Also, in order to tune it yourself you would need to buy the HP tuners or EFI live or something to that effect, which lessens the cost difference since the Holley comes with the software too. You also have to deal with the wiring harness, as having one made might reduce the cost difference to nothing by the time you get the ECU, the harness, and the software to tune the stock ECU.

In addition to the GM conversion kits that come with the timing cover, timing set, and sensors, EFI Connection also offers numerous other options to do these conversions.

If you do the factory computer then you will either need to get a an LS firing order camshaft, or plug the harness in "wrong" on purpose to compensate for the different firing order at the injector and spark plug.

With the Holley ECU, you just tell it the firing order and it takes care of the injectors and spark automatically. My cam is a 4/7 swap, so the firing order is in between the old BBC and the new LS firing order, I just typed in 18736542.

The throttle response and consistency of an old BBC with full coil per cylinder DIS ignition and multiport sequential fuel injection is awesome, modern tech meats vintage behemoth torque to make one pissed off sounding machine.

 

[USSkoval]

Yes, you are correct, and it may be less expensive, but doesn't have nearly the same aftermarket tuning and programming potential as the Holley ECU. Also, in order to tune it yourself you would need to buy the HP tuners or EFI live or something to that effect, which lessens the cost difference since the Holley comes with the software too. You also have to deal with the wiring harness, as having one made might reduce the cost difference to nothing by the time you get the ECU, the harness, and the software to tune the stock ECU.

In addition to the GM conversion kits that come with the timing cover, timing set, and sensors, EFI Connection also offers numerous other options to do these conversions.

If you do the factory computer then you will either need to get a an LS firing order camshaft, or plug the harness in "wrong" on purpose to compensate for the different firing order at the injector and spark plug.

With the Holley ECU, you just tell it the firing order and it takes care of the injectors and spark automatically. My cam is a 4/7 swap, so the firing order is in between the old BBC and the new LS firing order, I just typed in 18736542.

The throttle response and consistency of an old BBC with full coil per cylinder DIS ignition and multiport sequential fuel injection is awesome, modern tech meats vintage behemoth torque to make one pissed off sounding machine.

Good stuff! Care if I send you a PM with a few questions, so as not to muddy up Beags' thread?

 

[beags86]

Good stuff! Care if I send you a PM with a few questions, so as not to muddy up Beags' thread?

I don't mind as along as it's not jibber jabber. This is real tech. So feel free.

 

[folkenheath]

Brian is OK with the tech, and I'm fine with either method...

 

[beags86]

Brian is OK with the tech, and I'm fine with either method...

I definitely learned something, I didn't think you would have been able to use a stock computer.
Guess I was just figuring it wouldn't work without really knowing.
I am interested in reading/learning more even if the option isn't for me.

 

[USSkoval]

ECM tuning is not my thing, I honestly have no interest in it either, lol. If a stock harness can be reworked and used, I'm not opposed to that. I like things being routed exactly how I want anyway, I'm very OCD about that. There's also a well known shop around here that does custom dyno tuning. Apparently the OBDII LS and Modular Furd stuff is their thing.

The grunt of the big block is always awesome, but it would be even more awesome if my crew cab was the type of rig that could be treated like a newer truck. Just fire it up in all climates and pull whatever I want with it, even at different elevations. But if an aftermarket ECM and harness will turn out a better product and cost similar, that's kind of a no-brainer.

My real question is the one that's off topic. I've got a TPI Camaro and I've had it with the stock OBDI setup. I have been seriously considering the FAST EZ EFI retrofit setup that is self-tuning. This new info has me thinking that's likely a poor choice. Going sequential would be awesome and so would going DIS. I've always tried to keep the car with a stock appearance, so the TPI is here to stay (although maybe with a First Injection manifold). If the older GM coil packs that fire two cylnders could be used, they could maybe be mounted back by where the dizzy would have been, retaining the look of normal plug wires.

So do the right parts exist to achieve this? Basically a TPI motor, that is sequential and has DIS, that resembles a stockish engine, that can also be self-learning or tuned by my local shop? I'd be willing to live with coil-near-plug if it's necessary.

 

[imiceman44]

ECM tuning is not my thing, I honestly have no interest in it either, lol. If a stock harness can be reworked and used, I'm not opposed to that. I like things being routed exactly how I want anyway, I'm very OCD about that. There's also a well known shop around here that does custom dyno tuning. Apparently the OBDII LS and Modular Furd stuff is their thing.

The grunt of the big block is always awesome, but it would be even more awesome if my crew cab was the type of rig that could be treated like a newer truck. Just fire it up in all climates and pull whatever I want with it, even at different elevations. But if an aftermarket ECM and harness will turn out a better product and cost similar, that's kind of a no-brainer.

My real question is the one that's off topic. I've got a TPI Camaro and I've had it with the stock OBDI setup. I have been seriously considering the FAST EZ EFI retrofit setup that is self-tuning. This new info has me thinking that's likely a poor choice. Going sequential would be awesome and so would going DIS. I've always tried to keep the car with a stock appearance, so the TPI is here to stay (although maybe with a First Injection manifold). If the older GM coil packs that fire two cylnders could be used, they could maybe be mounted back by where the dizzy would have been, retaining the look of normal plug wires.

So do the right parts exist to achieve this? Basically a TPI motor, that is sequential and has DIS, that resembles a stockish engine, that can also be self-learning or tuned by my local shop? I'd be willing to live with coil-near-plug if it's necessary.

I am waiting for an answer on this.
I have a tpi setup and I am missing the ecm and the harness has seen better days.
I would like to have a more modern setup with the same intake if possible.

 

[folkenheath]

My real question is the one that's off topic. I've got a TPI Camaro and I've had it with the stock OBDI setup. I have been seriously considering the FAST EZ EFI retrofit setup that is self-tuning. This new info has me thinking that's likely a poor choice. Going sequential would be awesome and so would going DIS. I've always tried to keep the car with a stock appearance, so the TPI is here to stay (although maybe with a First Injection manifold). If the older GM coil packs that fire two cylnders could be used, they could maybe be mounted back by where the dizzy would have been, retaining the look of normal plug wires.

So do the right parts exist to achieve this? Basically a TPI motor, that is sequential and has DIS, that resembles a stockish engine, that can also be self-learning or tuned by my local shop? I'd be willing to live with coil-near-plug if it's necessary.

Yes the parts exist, but not an all in one kit. The only part I'm not sure you can buy is a bracket to mount the coils where you want them. The big block has the option of using 8100 valve covers and coils, but for a stock look with a small block or big block with coils where the dizzy used to be (which I mentioned this a couple years ago to another member on here), you may need to custom mount the coils, you could do this with some brackets fastened to the firewall even I believe. I saw a picture of it a few months ago on someones thread that went to a car show recently and it was there, someone already did it. I imagine 4 coils in a square on top 4 more coils with the 4 plug wires sticking out each side. It would be easy to do with a sandwich plate and some spacers.

You are correct, the FAST EZ system is not sequential, even the 2.0.

GM has the conversion kit for Gen VI big blocks (not Mark IV) part #19260247 here:

19260247

But for small block the only source I know of is EFI connection, you can see many of their options here:

https://www.eficonnection.com/home/category/engine-hardware/crank-and-cam-signal-kits

24x, 58x, etc. Just be aware that it's more expensive to run a cam sensor in the timing cover for the small block.

Then you either run an oil pump drive like this..

MSD 8513

or just leave your dizzy in to drive the pump, I would remove the rotor and other stuff from inside.

Or you can run this which is also a 1x cam sensor.

https://www.eficonnection.com/home/...tor-1x-signal-for-4-3l-v6-sbc-and-bbc-engines

Both of those would take more room than the MSD oil pump drive, which may be the space you want to mount your coils.

Then you would need coil packs and a mounting bracket. Any LS style coils would work, unless you are going big boost or something then I would step up to the D585 or IGN1A coils.

I would suggest 8 coils, I'm not a fan of the waste spark, but it does work fine for many applications and doesn't even require a cam sensor if you use the Holley ECU, which can save money, but you also lose sequential injection.

If you get the correct 24x or 58x timing cover, you could just buy a terminator LS kit and plug it in like an LS motor, then swap the firing order with your laptop and start her up. I oversimplified it because you will need to input the proper injector size and other things, but with a laptop its nearly limitless and pretty easy to use the Holley software.

Also, the holley software allows you to select a 58x or 24x crank sensor along with a 1x cam sensor if you so desire. You have options.

For example, with the bosch style connector and a 24x crank sensor you could use this kit: (HP ECU)

https://www.holley.com/products/fue...nator_ls_efi/terminator_ls_mpfi/parts/550-608

With transmission control you would want this kit..(DOM ECU)

https://www.holley.com/products/fue...nator_ls_efi/terminator_ls_mpfi/parts/550-609

or you can buy one of these from EFI connection, I am sure they could recommend which one for what you want to do and then you would need to supply the harnesses and tuning somehow too. If you want to go that route I suggest calling them to see what the total price would be if you got everything, you could even price out the ignition coils but you may be better off getting a set a a salvage yard, don't get chinese knock-offs.

https://www.eficonnection.com/home/...ol-modules/gm-ecus/with-58x-crankshaft-signal

I have zero experience tuning the stock ECUs, I always go aftermarket because I feel like it unleashes the possibilities and allows me to do it all myself.

 

[shady]

Sequencial MPFI on a big block is what's been bouncing around my brain for a while... But I couldn't find tech I could understand. This I'm gettin though....

Basically my idea was to make the equivalent of an 8.1, but without actually buying one because of their lack of cheap aftermarket.

That sounds totally doable now.

Plus, I already have 3 big blocks lol

 

[beags86]

Sequencial MPFI on a big block is what's been bouncing around my brain for a while... But I couldn't find tech I could understand. This I'm gettin though....

Basically my idea was to make the equivalent of an 8.1, but without actually buying one because of their lack of cheap aftermarket.

That sounds totally doable now.

Plus, I already have 3 big blocks lol

Don't take offense rick, but have not been following this thread? That is exactly what has been my plan since I junked my old plow truck out and harvested the 454 out of it.
To your credit I'm not sure (without re reading all the thread ramblings) that i really spelled out my exact plans.

 

[shady]

I read some in the beginning, .But mostly check back for pics and burnouts lol. Haven't actually done a bunch of reading in it yet. Just the last bit. I remembered you wanted a FI 496. But didn't catch/ remember the SMPFI part

 

[USSkoval]

Wow! This is exciting!

So just to be clear, the Terminator LS is a true "self learning" setup, but can be further setup by someone that knows what they are doing?

And the "waste spark" coils can still support sequential injection, as long as a cam sensor is used. Do they still need to be mounted to an ignition module to be used? A Northstar/Aurora module puts all four coils in a row, packaging might not work so well. Unless two 4cyl modules can somehow be used?

Out in the barn I've got a bunch of stuff from a 5.3 truck engine, including all the coils. I'll start by mocking those up and see what can be done. A gutted stock dizzy might make a decent mounting platform.

I run a T56 so I don't need to worry about transmission controls. Other than the reverse lockout, which is currently wired to the brake pedal. More than a couple times I have bumped reverse while on the brake and downshifting to 5th.

 

[beags86]

I read some in the beginning, .But mostly check back for pics and burnouts lol. Haven't actually done a bunch of reading in it yet. Just the last bit. I remembered you wanted a FI 496. But didn't catch/ remember the SMPFI part

Your probably right, I know I mentioned EFI several times, without really sayings SMPFI, i thought I linked the Holley kit, but maybe I linked the wrong one. I look back later, when I get a chance.

 

[shady]

You may have linked it... I vaguely remember seeing a Holley kit link maybe. But I've read a lot of threads and summit searhes since then lol. .....
Attention span of a gold fish

 

[folkenheath]

Sequencial MPFI on a big block is what's been bouncing around my brain for a while... But I couldn't find tech I could understand. This I'm gettin though....

Basically my idea was to make the equivalent of an 8.1, but without actually buying one because of their lack of cheap aftermarket.

That sounds totally doable now.

Plus, I already have 3 big blocks lol

It's not quite as easy with a Mark IV big block (you can't just buy the timing set with the sensors in the cover). But you can use the $135 cam sync oil pump drive and a 4x, 36-1, or 58x external crank trigger wheel to make it work with the holley or other aftermarket ECU. This requires a little more time syncing the crank and cam sensors together so it works properly. Its not quite as plug and play as the fixed sensor timing cover, but works similar in the end.

Wow! This is exciting!

So just to be clear, the Terminator LS is a true "self learning" setup, but can be further setup by someone that knows what they are doing?

And the "waste spark" coils can still support sequential injection, as long as a cam sensor is used. Do they still need to be mounted to an ignition module to be used? A Northstar/Aurora module puts all four coils in a row, packaging might not work so well. Unless two 4cyl modules can somehow be used?

Out in the barn I've got a bunch of stuff from a 5.3 truck engine, including all the coils. I'll start by mocking those up and see what can be done. A gutted stock dizzy might make a decent mounting platform.

I run a T56 so I don't need to worry about transmission controls. Other than the reverse lockout, which is currently wired to the brake pedal. More than a couple times I have bumped reverse while on the brake and downshifting to 5th.

Yes, most people don't realize, but the Holley Terminator series EFI includes the exact same HP or Dominator ECUs that have the full gamut of features if you just plug a laptop into it with the USB cable. So you can just use the handheld, or you can go full on custom with a laptop. Or both, customize it all with the laptop and use the handheld just for EZ data viewing. One thing I'm not sure is if you can change the firing order in the little handheld, maybe, maybe not. But that can be done easily with the laptop if you download the Holley software, then you don't have to move the harness around for the injectors and coils.

Yes you can do waste spark and sequential with a cam sensor.

As for the aurora coils, it would totally depend on if they are smart coils or not. If the coil required an ignition module to operate with the factory ECU, then it's not really a smart coil I don't believe. The Holley can trigger smart coils by plugging directly into the ECU. So the Dominator ECU can effectively become the EFI box, the ignition box, the transmission control box, and the data logger box all in one unit. (that's how I use it). And you can get smart coils to support 4,000 HP that you can drive on the street so the ignition won't be any limiting factor. The HP ECU can do everything but DBW and trans control.

Holley has its own line of waste spark coils but I would just use the 5.3 coils you have. They'll plug right into the terminator harness, it's just a matter of mounting them and getting plug wires that work. Keep in mind you'll need the GM coil sub-harness that connects each bank of coils together as one connector.

When you get it all done it's quite rewarding. You can tune every aspect without leaking fuel or even moving a wrench, it's pretty crazy.

 

[USSkoval]

It's not quite as easy with a Mark IV big block (you can't just buy the timing set with the sensors in the cover). But you can use the $135 cam sync oil pump drive and a 4x, 36-1, or 58x external crank trigger wheel to make it work with the holley or other aftermarket ECU. This requires a little more time syncing the crank and cam sensors together so it works properly. Its not quite as plug and play as the fixed sensor timing cover, but works similar in the end.



Yes, most people don't realize, but the Holley Terminator series EFI includes the exact same HP or Dominator ECUs that have the full gamut of features if you just plug a laptop into it with the USB cable. So you can just use the handheld, or you can go full on custom with a laptop. Or both, customize it all with the laptop and use the handheld just for EZ data viewing. One thing I'm not sure is if you can change the firing order in the little handheld, maybe, maybe not. But that can be done easily with the laptop if you download the Holley software, then you don't have to move the harness around for the injectors and coils.

Yes you can do waste spark and sequential with a cam sensor.

As for the aurora coils, it would totally depend on if they are smart coils or not. If the coil required an ignition module to operate with the factory ECU, then it's not really a smart coil I don't believe. The Holley can trigger smart coils by plugging directly into the ECU. So the Dominator ECU can effectively become the EFI box, the ignition box, the transmission control box, and the data logger box all in one unit. (that's how I use it). And you can get smart coils to support 4,000 HP that you can drive on the street so the ignition won't be any limiting factor. The HP ECU can do everything but DBW and trans control.

Holley has its own line of waste spark coils but I would just use the 5.3 coils you have. They'll plug right into the terminator harness, it's just a matter of mounting them and getting plug wires that work. Keep in mind you'll need the GM coil sub-harness that connects each bank of coils together as one connector.

When you get it all done it's quite rewarding. You can tune every aspect without leaking fuel or even moving a wrench, it's pretty crazy.

Yeah, the Aurora coils mount to an ignition module, which has two contacts that protrude into each coil. I think they ground through the mounting screws. The module has a few weather pack connections on it, one of which is a 2-wire harness that leads directly to the crank sensor. I'd guess they are not "smart" coils. They were used on GM DIS systems from '87 through around '02. They were primarily used on V6 fwd engines and cam-in-block 4 cylinders. I think the only V8 application was the 4.6 Northstar and the smaller displacement Aurora V8.

But it's looking like the LS style coils just make more sense. And I do have the sub-harnesses too.

Also, you have simply made my day. For the first time in years, I have a plan for my Camaro that I am 100% happy with.

 

[shady]

It's not quite as easy with a Mark IV big block (you can't just buy the timing set with the sensors in the cover). But you can use the $135 cam sync oil pump drive and a 4x, 36-1, or 58x external crank trigger wheel to make it work with the holley or other aftermarket ECU. This requires a little more time syncing the crank and cam sensors together so it works properly. Its not quite as plug and play as the fixed sensor timing cover, but works similar in the end.



Yes, most people don't realize, but the Holley Terminator series EFI includes the exact same HP or Dominator ECUs that have the full gamut of features if you just plug a laptop into it with the USB cable. So you can just use the handheld, or you can go full on custom with a laptop. Or both, customize it all with the laptop and use the handheld just for EZ data viewing. One thing I'm not sure is if you can change the firing order in the little handheld, maybe, maybe not. But that can be done easily with the laptop if you download the Holley software, then you don't have to move the harness around for the injectors and coils.

Yes you can do waste spark and sequential with a cam sensor.

As for the aurora coils, it would totally depend on if they are smart coils or not. If the coil required an ignition module to operate with the factory ECU, then it's not really a smart coil I don't believe. The Holley can trigger smart coils by plugging directly into the ECU. So the Dominator ECU can effectively become the EFI box, the ignition box, the transmission control box, and the data logger box all in one unit. (that's how I use it). And you can get smart coils to support 4,000 HP that you can drive on the street so the ignition won't be any limiting factor. The HP ECU can do everything but DBW and trans control.

Holley has its own line of waste spark coils but I would just use the 5.3 coils you have. They'll plug right into the terminator harness, it's just a matter of mounting them and getting plug wires that work. Keep in mind you'll need the GM coil sub-harness that connects each bank of coils together as one connector.

When you get it all done it's quite rewarding. You can tune every aspect without leaking fuel or even moving a wrench, it's pretty crazy.

Wasn't thinking about the mark IV thing.. I'll have to freshen one of mine up and sell it to get into a vortec 7.4. then build that one.

Good info by the way. Layed out so it can be read without a degree lol. Some of the other sites I found sounded like everyone was just trying to sound smarter than the next guy. Got hard to read fast.

I like the idea of putting together a kit instead of a premade. Then using the controller and harness like holleys.. better intake choices and such. Rather than an entire kit that may be geared more for a strip than a daily

 

[folkenheath]

Also, you have simply made my day. For the first time in years, I have a plan for my Camaro that I am 100% happy with.

I think you should likely stick with the 24x setup since you are trying to plug into the tuned port intake stuff. I believe the IAC, MAP, TPS, etc will be the same connector, but I am not 100% sure. Worst case you may need to swap sensors or connectors to plug it in, not a showstopper. You definitely don't have the LS3 style MAP sensor so stick with the older LS harness. Does the tuned port have knock sensors? I don't think it does, you might just leave those unplugged then, but if it does do your homework, the holley can work with them, its just a matter of connectors. But you don't really need them for a tuned port NA engine.

Wasn't thinking about the mark IV thing.. I'll have to freshen one of mine up and sell it to get into a vortec 7.4. then build that one.

Good info by the way. Layed out so it can be read without a degree lol. Some of the other sites I found sounded like everyone was just trying to sound smarter than the next guy. Got hard to read fast.

I like the idea of putting together a kit instead of a premade. Then using the controller and harness like holleys.. better intake choices and such. Rather than an entire kit that may be geared more for a strip than a daily

I'm glad it helped. And I agree, some parts separate is more flexible. I prefer the Holley EFI but like the Edelbrock intakes better. So I pieced mine together with the Holley EFI and fuel system, Edelbrock intake, and an accufab throttle body. I ended up using fast injectors and holley fuel rails on an edelbrock intake, weird, but it works. I like the o-ring fuel fittings on the Holley rails, Edelbrock is switching over, but a lot of their rails still have NPT fittings, which I despise with 40-60 psi gasoline.

Also, the Holley ECU is extremely versatile, its self learning with a handheld simpleness, yet you have guys with the same ECU winning drag week and running in the 5s or 6s in the quarter. Crazy versatility if you change your mind down the road and want to do anything in between.

 

[beags86]

I like the idea of putting together a kit instead of a premade. Then using the controller and harness like holleys.. better intake choices and such. Rather than an entire kit that may be geared more for a strip than a daily

FYI if you call Holley they will put together a custom kit for you. It doesn't need to be a summit or jegs only what is listed on the website type of thing.

I had Holley build me a setup a year or two ago when I was actively sticking money into my engine.
I'll see if I can find it.
Of course you can use our resident guy @folkenheath to if you prefer.

 

[beags86]

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/hp_efi/hp_multi-port_kits/parts/550-835


I'll start with this and work up from there. I researched it all before and wrote it down. So I don't recall right now. But I believe I've to upgrade the ECU to control the 4L80E, and the optional touch screen for the dash.

I read some in the beginning, .But mostly check back for pics and burnouts lol. Haven't actually done a bunch of reading in it yet. Just the last bit. I remembered you wanted a FI 496. But didn't catch/ remember the SMPFI part

Here you go. This is where I had linked the SMPFI.