hillbilly deluxe
Professional Pile-It
I got a great deal on a 93 4x4 truck with a 6.5 and 5 spd. Think I can just put the whole drivetrain into my 73 Sub?
Last edited:
CK5
Register an account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members.
6.5 swap (parts gathering phase)
- Thread starter hillbilly deluxe
- Start date
uao85
1/2 ton status
yep cake. Just watch out for the downpipe, it will have some clearance issues in the older sub frame. Also you will need a different transfer case to switch it from a driver side drop to a pass side drop. Sweet score btw, really nice setup, especially with the 5spd.
Remington
Wrench
1/2 ton status
Downpipe will pretty much need to be custom bent. What he said about the t-case.
Manual glow plug relay with AC Delco 60G plugs, and the pink fat wire that goes to the top of the injection pump needs to be ign. power. That's about all there is to it . . .
Manual glow plug relay with AC Delco 60G plugs, and the pink fat wire that goes to the top of the injection pump needs to be ign. power. That's about all there is to it . . .
One other little thing you will want, a 454 4-core radiator, fan shroud, and hold down brackets. Then get diesel tanks from a 82-87 6.2L truck and have them mounted on the 454 core.
hillbilly deluxe
Professional Pile-It
I bought a new aluminum radiator from jegs recently, hadn't installed it yet. That ought to be good eh? I will have the entire truck. What about just using the radiator that's in it.
Then get diesel tanks from a 82-87 6.2L truck and have them mounted on the 454 core.[/quote]
What diesel tanks?
I'm new to the diesel crowd. I didn't think about the t-case being different. Do you guys think there's a way to mate that trannie to my 205? (which is from a mid 80's truck) I was looking on Advance Adapters and they had a kit to mate a GM NV 4500 to a 205 and it was 600 bucks!
Will the motor mounts/crossmember be in the right place to bolt in?
I can't wait to get started & put up some pics!
Last edited:
You can use your existing radiator if you use an external oil and transmission coolers. The diesel radiators have a built in oil cooler on one side and the transmission cooler on the other.
Wrench
1/2 ton status
If the '93 is the HD 3/4 ton or a one ton it will have an external oil cooler already, as well as an external power steering cooler. I'd use both. Which reminds me, you'll need to switch to hydro boost brakes--all you need is a master cylinder from an 80's body style diesel or one ton, the '93 p/s pump and lines are all a direct fit.
I would also just use the rad from the '93, ideally find a shroud and brackets from an '80's diesel as the '93 rad will bolt right in with those.
No tranny cooler needed with a 5-speed
I would also just use the rad from the '93, ideally find a shroud and brackets from an '80's diesel as the '93 rad will bolt right in with those.
No tranny cooler needed with a 5-speed
Wrench
1/2 ton status
The main tubes for the rad hoses are different sizes for diesel, did you buy the rad for a diesel or gas application?
What diesel tanks?
He's referring to the end tanks on the rad, just use the '93 rad if it's in good condition.
Do you have a round pattern or figure 8 pattern, 32-spline input or no?
Motor mounts are correct, crossmember will require mods.
hillbilly deluxe
Professional Pile-It
Thanks for so much input wrench.
The radiator is for a gasser... Guess it'll be for sale soon!
The t-cased Should be a 10 spline, according to info I gathered on High Impact's site. It's definitely the 8 bolt pattern. I might just go to the junkyard and pick out a different one. It looks like I can decide which one I want by make/model/year/trans. The one I have now has a slip-yuk anyway, so I'm not all that fond of it. I want a fixed yoke again so I can use that driveline brake from high angle.
Ultimately it would be nice to find a 205 that would bolt up to the nv4500 without blowing $600 on an adapter....
Think the crossmember will be too close or to far? Would it be as simple as drilling some holes to locate the crossmember further one way or the other? I wonder if the clocking will be wrong.
The radiator is for a gasser... Guess it'll be for sale soon!
The t-cased Should be a 10 spline, according to info I gathered on High Impact's site. It's definitely the 8 bolt pattern. I might just go to the junkyard and pick out a different one. It looks like I can decide which one I want by make/model/year/trans. The one I have now has a slip-yuk anyway, so I'm not all that fond of it. I want a fixed yoke again so I can use that driveline brake from high angle.
Ultimately it would be nice to find a 205 that would bolt up to the nv4500 without blowing $600 on an adapter....Think the crossmember will be too close or to far? Would it be as simple as drilling some holes to locate the crossmember further one way or the other? I wonder if the clocking will be wrong.
hillbilly deluxe
Professional Pile-It
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PDFs/New Jun 2003/Advance Adapters catalogue/gm.pdf
This page says an 85-91 np 205 will fit with the stock adapter modified. Maybe that'll be the new t-case and I'll just have to get a slip yoke eliminator... Then watch me spend $600 bucks anyway instead of just getting the adapter.
This page says an 85-91 np 205 will fit with the stock adapter modified. Maybe that'll be the new t-case and I'll just have to get a slip yoke eliminator... Then watch me spend $600 bucks anyway instead of just getting the adapter.
Wrench
1/2 ton status
Mebbe so but buying the adapter still doesn't machine your 10-spline t-case to accept the 32-spline input, or get the 32-spline input . . .
Ideally your cheapest option would be to find the 85-91 205 and swap the long 32-spline input for a short 32-spline input (available from a few places) which came stock on the TH400 version pre-85 205's
but buying the adapter still doesn't machine your 10-spline t-case to accept the 32-spline input, or get the 32-spline input . . .Ideally your cheapest option would be to find the 85-91 205 and swap the long 32-spline input for a short 32-spline input (available from a few places) which came stock on the TH400 version pre-85 205's
In my opinion, I wouldn't get stuck on running the 205! An NP208 or NP241 is a very good choice of transfer case for a few reasons:
1. Weight. The 208 and 241 are significantly lighter than the 205 is. Being that the transfercase is bolted to an aluminum tailhousing that also serves as the housing for the 4500's 5th gear, you really don't want to put more stress on it than you have to. If you split that housing open, you will loose all your NV4500's lube. Seeing as that stuff is $45 a quart, you want to keep it inside your transmission, not to mention the cost of replacing the housing itself.
2. Shifter issues. The 205's factory shifter depends on the adapter having a threaded boss on it for the bolt the shifter pivots on to bolt into. It would not be particularly easy to try and design a bracket to replace that boss and make a functional shifter. The 208 and 241 shifters need to be installed further back than factory, putting them almost under a bench seat equipped vehicle, but will not present any other issues.
3. Strength. The 205 does have a heavy duty cast case that won't split open as easy if struck offroad, but the internals are honestly not that much tougher than a 208 or 241, esspecially the 241. I understand an NP241 is rated for 1400 ft lbs of torque, which is nearly 3x as much torque as a turbo 6.5L is capable of producing (350 - 400 ft lbs).
4. Low Range. The 205 has a measly 1.98:1 low range, while a 208 has a 2.61:1, and a 241 has a sweet 2.72:1 low range
The only reason why guys shy away from the chain drive cases is because their aluminum housings are weaker and can be broken by jamming a front driveshaft into one suddenly (driveshaft is too long 99% of the time) or by mashing one on a rock (a good skid plate will protect it)
1. Weight. The 208 and 241 are significantly lighter than the 205 is. Being that the transfercase is bolted to an aluminum tailhousing that also serves as the housing for the 4500's 5th gear, you really don't want to put more stress on it than you have to. If you split that housing open, you will loose all your NV4500's lube. Seeing as that stuff is $45 a quart, you want to keep it inside your transmission, not to mention the cost of replacing the housing itself.
2. Shifter issues. The 205's factory shifter depends on the adapter having a threaded boss on it for the bolt the shifter pivots on to bolt into. It would not be particularly easy to try and design a bracket to replace that boss and make a functional shifter. The 208 and 241 shifters need to be installed further back than factory, putting them almost under a bench seat equipped vehicle, but will not present any other issues.
3. Strength. The 205 does have a heavy duty cast case that won't split open as easy if struck offroad, but the internals are honestly not that much tougher than a 208 or 241, esspecially the 241. I understand an NP241 is rated for 1400 ft lbs of torque, which is nearly 3x as much torque as a turbo 6.5L is capable of producing (350 - 400 ft lbs).
4. Low Range. The 205 has a measly 1.98:1 low range, while a 208 has a 2.61:1, and a 241 has a sweet 2.72:1 low range
The only reason why guys shy away from the chain drive cases is because their aluminum housings are weaker and can be broken by jamming a front driveshaft into one suddenly (driveshaft is too long 99% of the time) or by mashing one on a rock (a good skid plate will protect it)
hillbilly deluxe
Professional Pile-It
Well, you make a damn good point. I had a '96 F-350 with, I think, a Borg-Warner 1400 or something like that, and I mud bogged the hell out of it with 38's and it never gave me any flack. Not to mention one time I drove up a snow bank, slid down and landed square on the thing on top of a rock so big I was high centered. It was cold out and the first thing I thouhgt of was that housing.... You could press the throttle and the truck would just kinda pivot! Is there a passenger drop 241?
Excellent food for thought!
Excellent food for thought!
Yup, if you grab one from a 89 K5, Burb, or crewcab it even has a cable drive for your mechanical speedometer! They can be found in 89 - 91 K5s, Burbs and Crewcabs (square bodystyle with solid front axles only) The 90 / 91 cases will have an electric speed sensor, but you can swap it out with a mechanical drive by changing the slip yolk tailhousing out with one from an 89 (see them on here from time to time), or installing an SYE kit with a mechanical drive system.
I personally wouldn't even consider an NP205 in one of my trucks, just too many advantages to the aluminum cased chain drive units, IMO! Those chains are pretty friggin' tough too, most go the life of the truck without being changed seeing normal street use, that equates to a ton of offroad abuse before they fail too.
I personally wouldn't even consider an NP205 in one of my trucks, just too many advantages to the aluminum cased chain drive units, IMO! Those chains are pretty friggin' tough too, most go the life of the truck without being changed seeing normal street use, that equates to a ton of offroad abuse before they fail too.
hillbilly deluxe
Professional Pile-It
I finally got to go pick it up. How does $1000 sound? It's a pretty decent truck, almost a shame to take it apart, but there's no way in hell I could get a 6.5 TD and an NV 4500 for less than that. I guess some old lions (or chevys) may eat their young!
It's a pretty decent truck, almost a shame to take it apart, but there's no way in hell I could get a 6.5 TD and an NV 4500 for less than that. I guess some old lions (or chevys) may eat their young!
Good score! An NV4500 of that era goes for about $1500 up in my area all by itself! I actually did the exact same swap as you are about to do, with nearly the exact same donor truck. I picked up a 93 K3500 6.5TD / NV4500 for $1200.00. The engine was non op, so I swapped the turbo setup onto my good 82 6.2L diesel, and dropped it into my 1980 GMC K25 with the NV4500 and an 89 NP241. I later swapped in an electronic speedometer cluster, but already sold the cable drive assembly.
Pretty easy swap all around, I did have some frame clearance issues between the turbo manifold and the frame rail on the passenger's side, and I did wind up running the exhaust on the outside of the frame due to the impossiblity of fitting a 3.5" pipe down through the inside of the frame rail without a body lift.
If you use the NP241 or an NP208, you can grab driveshafts from any 81+ 3/4 ton burb with an NP208 or NP241 (auto or standard does not matter, they are all the same length) and bolt it straight in with the NV4500 / NP241 combo using your 1 ton diffs. I used the 81+ truck transmission crossmember and was pleasantly surprised to find that it was an exact fit with the NV4500's mount, only required drilling 4 holes in the frame to mount it. Most difficult part of the swap is the master cylinder / clutch pedal install. I personally custom fabbed it using the 93's master cylinder with a custom installed stud on the clutch pedal, but I have heard rumours that the master cylinder for the 85+ trucks, burbs etc with hydro SM465s works just fine with the NV4500's slave cylinder (which would be a heck of a lot easier to install, and would make for far less pedal effort than my truck has). If you need a set of hydro pedals, let me know as I have a spare set sitting in my parts stash.
If you run into any problems, lemme know and I can tell you what I did to get around it.
Pretty easy swap all around, I did have some frame clearance issues between the turbo manifold and the frame rail on the passenger's side, and I did wind up running the exhaust on the outside of the frame due to the impossiblity of fitting a 3.5" pipe down through the inside of the frame rail without a body lift.
If you use the NP241 or an NP208, you can grab driveshafts from any 81+ 3/4 ton burb with an NP208 or NP241 (auto or standard does not matter, they are all the same length) and bolt it straight in with the NV4500 / NP241 combo using your 1 ton diffs. I used the 81+ truck transmission crossmember and was pleasantly surprised to find that it was an exact fit with the NV4500's mount, only required drilling 4 holes in the frame to mount it. Most difficult part of the swap is the master cylinder / clutch pedal install. I personally custom fabbed it using the 93's master cylinder with a custom installed stud on the clutch pedal, but I have heard rumours that the master cylinder for the 85+ trucks, burbs etc with hydro SM465s works just fine with the NV4500's slave cylinder (which would be a heck of a lot easier to install, and would make for far less pedal effort than my truck has). If you need a set of hydro pedals, let me know as I have a spare set sitting in my parts stash.
If you run into any problems, lemme know and I can tell you what I did to get around it.
DEMON44
Low-Tech Redneck
I have a monster borg warrner 1440 Tcase out of my '97 3500 crewcab availiable. it was bolted to the back of a GM nv4500 in the dually.
*edit* worong side I see where you're at there. and what they said about the 241 for sure true. WAY under rated tcases. I abused the HD241 in my old '98 Dodge and never a wimper.
*edit* worong side I see where you're at there. and what they said about the 241 for sure true. WAY under rated tcases. I abused the HD241 in my old '98 Dodge and never a wimper.
hillbilly deluxe
Professional Pile-It
This truck totaly kicks butt. My house is finally selling so I will use it to move, then get my motor & trans! Moving over to Rifle CO.
hillbilly deluxe
Professional Pile-It
Okay, after driving this truck around I have noticed a few things. I think that it smokes a little too much. Injectors? He was telling me he replaced the injector pump twice. It has 260k. It has power and still runs smooth. It does a lot of smoking right after firing it up. He got some kind of glow plug override put in. You have to hold down the button yourself to activate the glow plugs, which is actually fine with me, should be able to use that switch in my sub. He said he replaced some of the glow plugs but not all...
Also, the guy told me he put stop-leak in the radiator. Doesn't that stuff end up in the engine and maybe f things up? He said he was going to get it re-cored for $250. I've never even heard of that.
Also, the transmission is noisy in every gear except 3rd. It turns out that this is the 2nd transmission and it was pulled from a junk yard. The fifth gear in my old honda was noisy for a long time then one day there was no more 5th gear. Should I just get it rebuilt?
Also, the guy told me he put stop-leak in the radiator. Doesn't that stuff end up in the engine and maybe f things up? He said he was going to get it re-cored for $250. I've never even heard of that.
Also, the transmission is noisy in every gear except 3rd. It turns out that this is the 2nd transmission and it was pulled from a junk yard. The fifth gear in my old honda was noisy for a long time then one day there was no more 5th gear. Should I just get it rebuilt?
With 260K on the original injectors would certainly cause some excess smoke. Good chance those injectors are doing more dribbling than misting at this point, and there would be no harm in replacing them. You may also want to check the timing chain with that kind of mileage. You can be pretty sure that it is stretched many times beyond spec, which messes with valve timing and injection timing.
New glow plugs should be high on your priority list. Excess smoke right off startup can be blamed on non-op glow plugs causing several cylinders not to fire right off the get go. Low compression one one cylinder, valve issues etc can also cause excess smoke. If it is a sort of light almost bluish haze that puffs out of the pipe, that is usually un-burnt fuel. It isn't black because the engine is not under any load, and the exhaust temperatures are very low as compared to when you hammer on the skinny pedal or bog the engine.
Stop leak isn't particularly good for your engine, esspecially the water pump, but it isn't going to cause any problems with smoking. If it keeps cool, I'd leave good enough alone.
The NV4500 should be a very quiet transmission. I'd suspect that you have a bad thrust bearing, and likely some bad main / countershaft bearings. Also check to make sure that it is full of the CORRECT GM approved NV4500 fluid. It has it's own unique blend that requires for the special carbon fiber syncronizers. 80w90 is not only far too thick for the NV4500 (aka, noisy), but it will destroy the syncros in a real hurry.
New glow plugs should be high on your priority list. Excess smoke right off startup can be blamed on non-op glow plugs causing several cylinders not to fire right off the get go. Low compression one one cylinder, valve issues etc can also cause excess smoke. If it is a sort of light almost bluish haze that puffs out of the pipe, that is usually un-burnt fuel. It isn't black because the engine is not under any load, and the exhaust temperatures are very low as compared to when you hammer on the skinny pedal or bog the engine.
Stop leak isn't particularly good for your engine, esspecially the water pump, but it isn't going to cause any problems with smoking. If it keeps cool, I'd leave good enough alone.
The NV4500 should be a very quiet transmission. I'd suspect that you have a bad thrust bearing, and likely some bad main / countershaft bearings. Also check to make sure that it is full of the CORRECT GM approved NV4500 fluid. It has it's own unique blend that requires for the special carbon fiber syncronizers. 80w90 is not only far too thick for the NV4500 (aka, noisy), but it will destroy the syncros in a real hurry.
