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2010.08.01 - UPDATE!- GENTLEMEN.....ARP YOUR ENGINES!!

The painting process is tedious and painfully slow. All tolled, there were probably 8 hours spent just in the block cleaning and smoothing process. A few primer coats, then some color coats.....more waiting for full curing, then some sanding to knock down texture and more color coats. Finally, I was able to shoot the clear over the top of everything and I have to say the results DO look good. Hopefully all that cleaning & degreasing pays off and the paint stays "stuck" to the engine once it's actually bolted into the truck.

I unmasked the motor and didn't really want to leave the valvesprings, timing chain and crank area completely exposed so I spent the afternoon carefully putting things back together.

ARP has a pretty complete set of Gr-8 stainless hardware for the job

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The first order of business was to re-attach the timing cover, since that also provides part of the basis for the oilpan gasket. It didn't take long to hit a snag.... the 1/4-20 bolts in the kit are designed for the simple stamped steel timing cover, not the thicker aluminum cover...so the 1/2" bolts wouldn't even protrude through the cover let along grab enough threads in the block. I had no choice but to clean up and re-use the factory bolts until I can special order some 1" long stainless parts.

The pan bolts themselves worked perfectly. I really like how the ARP fasteners have a nice big flange to clamp down, but a smaller-than-usual head on the bolt. This pretty much guarantees that you'll always have room to get a socket where it needs to go.

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Next up....intake manifold. I spent a little extra time cutting down the gaskets where they were sticking out above the manifold so that it would have a cleaner final appearance. A bit of Gasgacinch (glorified contact cement as far as I can tell) on either side helped to hold them in place.

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Waterpump was next.... for some reason, the ARP set includes 5 bolts for this one (4 equal length, and 1 about 1/2" longer). Supposedly, the longer bolt is for long waterpump setups (which I have) but the four mounting spots on the pump were all equally sized, so I couldn't figure out where a longer bolt should go. Anyway, they seemed to have about 1/2" of thread engagement and torqued-down fine.

DSC03594.jpg


The intake was another story. There are 16 bolts....12 are the same (wide flanged bolt heads) and then 4 have a much narrower head though the thread size is the same. These bolts didn't seem to thread in very deeply, partially due to the thick washers that are included. I followed the tightening sequence (center toward outside). The centermost bolts on the passenger side are a tight fit, so there was no way to get a torquewrench on them without using a swivel socket....not ideal for getting accurate torque, but what can you do? :dunno: The real problem was on the rear bolts on the passenger side....

It was that sinking feeling as you apply torque to the wrench and you build pressure against the handle waiting for the "click" that says you're done....except, just before that happens the bolt suddenly starts to spin easily again! :doah: Two stripped holes in the head! DAMMIT! I don't know if these were buggered up already but my suspicion is that the bolts were not long enough to get good thread engagement and tore out. I was able to carefully run a tap down the rear hole (the worst one) and clean it up, then ran a longer bolt which seemed to work perfectly. Ultimately, I have a feeling that the intake manifold flange is slightly thicker than normal and/or the washers in the ARP bolt set are just not allowing a good solid thread engagement. I'll probably swap out all the intake bolts too just to be sure.

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After a morning's worth of painting, and an afternoon's worth of struggling with fasteners this is where I ended up for the day.

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There are still a lot of brackets and accessories to clean, paint and bolt on....but it feels good to finally have this engine in final paint after a few years of just sitting in raw metal in my shop.



:usaflag:
 
That turned out really good. The clear makes it pop(is it high temp?). I kinda wish I had taken a bit more time on mine but those wait times for drying are sometimes hard to deal with when you want to get to buildin. I ran into some of those same problems with bolts on mine also, seems after all these years manufactures would know about after market thickness and make the right length bolts.
 
haha, you have your disc sander in the same spot that I keep my disc/belt sander....
 
Umm Greg, I don't see any RTV sticking out the front or back of that intake manifold. I sure hope you put it in there and also enough (a 3/8" bead is what it takes).
 
Waterpump was next.... for some reason, the ARP set includes 5 bolts for this one (4 equal length, and 1 about 1/2" longer). Supposedly, the longer bolt is for long waterpump setups (which I have) but the four mounting spots on the pump were all equally sized, so I couldn't figure out where a longer bolt should go. Anyway, they seemed to have about 1/2" of thread engagement and torqued-down fine.

DSC03594.jpg





The long bolt is for the short water pump, not the long. It goes on the bottom left if you are looking at the front of the pump. The long pump uses the 4 equal bolts. :thinking: I just went threw that my self. Fyi this is the tread that got me hooked to ck5, so I'm glad to see you back at it. Looking good :bow::bow:
 
The various paints were all DupliColor Ceramic (Hi Temp Engine) Rattlecan (all available at Summit):

DE1612 - Grey Ceramic Primer
DE1620 - Chevy Orange Ceramic
DE1636 - Ceramic Clear

Don't be fooled like I was and shake the clear one waiting for the marble to rattle....there isn't one in the clear. Trust me, I shook a long time before I figured that one out.

Scotty, the Edelbrock instructions said to lay down a 1/4" bead of RTV, so that's what I did...I was careful to overlap the gaskets slightly on the edges to get a complete seal, and the RTV is visible....it just didn't squeeze out like it probably would have with a larger 3/8" bead.

Shane, thanks for the info on the WP bolts... I was getting really frustrated with myself for not being able to find a "deeper" hole to put the long bolt into. :)


:usaflag:
 
Ok. Well, hopefully you don't have a leak. If the RTV doesn't spooge out the ends I would be worried about a leak for sure.
 
Looks great - I hope you have a little better luck than I did when I painted my block - I cleaned it very diligently and still have some flake occurring.
 
2010.80.02 - UPDATE! - EVERY LITTLE THING IS A STRUGGLE...

I'm only just barely underway on some "CSI Investigation" work as I put together another Summit Racing order, and I've found a few answers about why the engine accessory bolt installations went so poorly:

After apparently stripping a couple of bolts I couldn't help wondering if what I was really experiencing was a result of "too-short" bolts.

Intake Bolts:

Measured all 16 holes. Some were "through" holes, but most measured 1.67" deep (or slightly more).

The ARP bolts are 3/8"-16 x 1.25" long with a thick (.078") washer.
Dropping a bolt into the hole leaves revealed that I had .272" of threadable length...subtracting out the washer thickness, I was only left with .194" of thread engagement!! At 20tpi, that means I was only getting 3 threads-worth of engagement. No wonder I was having trouble!!! :doah:

The solution appears to be to go up 1/4" on the length of the bolt to 1.5" total....That will give me .444" of threadable length, for a total thread engagement of 7.1 threads. Much better. :waytogo:

Timing Cover:

Total hole depth = 1.528"
Stock Bolts = 1/4"-20 x 1" long
Available thread depth = .215" - washer thickness (.072") = .143" (only 2.86 threads)

Stepping up to a 1.25" length bolt

Available thread depth = .465" - washer thickness (.072") = 3.93" (7.86 threads) BETTER!


Waterpump Bolts:

Total hole depth = 2.438"
ARP supplied bolts = 3/8"-16 x 2" with .079" thickwasher
Available thread depth (incl. washer) = .341" (5.45 threads)

This one seems almost OK to me. The rule of thumb I've heard is that the threaded depth should be equal to the thread diameter (3/8" diameter bolt should have 3/8" engagement). I still might bump this one up to a 2.25" long bolt just to be safe... :thinking:


Ultimately, this so-called "ARP Big Block Engine Bolt Kit" is proving to be a real waste of money. There is almost nothing yet that has been correct (except for the oilpan bolts!)... at $120/set I guess I was expecting a more thoughtful collection of fasteners.


:usaflag:
 
That's weird Greg. I used the ARP black coated engine set on mine. Didn't have any issues. :doah:

EDIT: I have an aluminum timing cover....but I am running a Mark IV block...
 
That's weird Greg. I used the ARP black coated engine set on mine. Didn't have any issues. :doah:

Just got off the phone with ARP....

Apparently, the 502BBC has a number of "unique" parts that make the universal kit a lot less universal, and they've been getting reports that the newer aluminum intakes seem to have thicker mounting flanges than they used to.

He confirmed that the 1.5" bolt length is what they sell for a 502-specific kit.

Interestingly, ARP offers different head sizes for the same threaded bolt size. You can get a 3/8-16 bolt with either a 3/8-drive socket head, or a 7/16" head. Either one is equally strong.... it does seem cool that you can actually correlate your thread size to your socket size. 3/8" sockets remove 3/8" bolts, etc. :waytogo:

I'm out trying on some pimpy "Stage-8" locking stainless header bolts right now....they seem to fit just fine so far.


:usaflag:
 
2010.08.08 - UPDATE! - BACKWARDS....THEN FORWARDS

I never like having to go backwards in a project, but it's even worse to press forward when you know that things may not be 100% right and are going to be a LOT harder to deal with later on. I really didn't like the way the RTV sealed up on the intake manifold, and the thought of having leaks in the future (and the hassle of pulling an intake once it was filled with coolant) convinced me to deal with it now and get it over with once and for all.

Quick Side Story:

Bought a set of polished aluminum valvecovers from eBay for $70. Seemed like a good deal until they arrived. They have the angled clearance for the brake booster (a good thing) except that this kit uses the same cover for BOTH sides, so when I tried them on I ended up with an angled cover on the front of the engine on the passenger side too! :doah: It was too stupid looking to ignore, so I had no choice but to call the company and get an RMA#. They were cool about it and said they wouldn't even charge me the usual 15% restocking fee. So I'm out about $20 in shipping charges and need to start over on my search:

DSC03611.jpg


I've been looking on eBay and have found some cool "vintage" BBC valvecovers from Mickey Thompson, Cal Custom, Edelbrock and Offenhauser.... It might be cool to get a classic old set to give this engine even more of that old school vibe. :waytogo:





Moving on to the subject at hand.... intake manifold REDUX:

It was not easy to get the intake manifold off. Between the RTV and the Gasgacinch adhesive, it was really stuck on there (that's a good thing ultimately). Once I got it free, I was able to check out the RTV at the ends..... the coverage was "OK" but not great. I'm glad I pulled the intake to deal with this now.

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The gaskets were a mess. They were stuck like glue (imagine that) so it took a few hours of careful cleaning and scrubbing to get the mating surface back to it's original condition.

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Here's an in-process shot of the cleaning process...

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Scott suggested that I put a few "dings" into both the engine block and manifold with a centerpunch to help provide a more textured surface for the RTV to bite into. That was a cool idea....

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I laid-down a full 3/8" bead of RTV with good overlap onto the gasket material on both sides, and when I put the intake back down into position I was rewarded with a good squish-out. :D

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A new assortment of longer ARP bolts arrived during the week, so I was able to put the 1.5" long bolts into the manifold and run the tightening sequence a few times around until I got to 25 Lb/Ft and the torque wrench was not moving (just clicking) at each position. I'll probably go back in a few more days and check to make sure the gasket hasn't relaxed and lost torque.

I also installed the longer bolts on the timing cover, and waterpump... I also bought some real ARP assembly lube so I can do all my assembly "by the book" and get good torque values and bolt stretch.

Not a lot of "new" progress this weekend, but at least I know that what is done now is correct, and that is worth a lot.

:usaflag:
 
ain't gonna leak now.. on my personal stuff, i usually drag a finger across the squished out bead for a real clean appearance after assembly....
 
If you didn't wipe the etc when it was wet, you can use a brand new xacto knife blade to cut off the excess. Just run some tape over the painted edges and run the blade across the edge (without cutting the tape of course). It works great.
 
If you didn't wipe the etc when it was wet, you can use a brand new xacto knife blade to cut off the excess. Just run some tape over the painted edges and run the blade across the edge (without cutting the tape of course). It works great.


That was my plan....gotta let it dry ALL the way through first, though. It will take a few days.


:usaflag:
 
Greg, since I know you can weld you could have just cut each end off the passenger side valve cover and flipped the ends you cut off and welded them back on. :haha:

Did you do as I said about the intake side gaskets and only use a small dab of RTV in a couple places to hold the gasket in place or did you snot the crap out of them again?
 
After seeing how powerful that Gasgacinch was and how strongly it locked everything together, I decided to do it the exact same way again (except for the thicker bead of RTV of course!).

I have zero concerns now about leaks from anywhere on that manifold now.


:usaflag:
 
After seeing how powerful that Gasgacinch was and how strongly it locked everything together, I decided to do it the exact same way again (except for the thicker bead of RTV of course!).

I have zero concerns now about leaks from anywhere on that manifold now.


:usaflag:


I used to use nothing but Right Stuff, Now it's Gasgacinch. That stuff works better than anything. Cool can also..
 
Greg, looks awesome man, I've used the razor knife trim job myself when I was concerned about apperance.
As far as bolt engagement; it should be 1.5x the diameter of the bolt for proper fastener holding strength.
 
The rule of thumb I was always told was 1 x bolt diameter in steel, 1.5 X in Aluminum. This was on aircraft tooling...

Rene
 

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